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Need for Immigrant Workers

What's the best way to address labor shortage and supply chain crisis?

  • Raise the minimum wage to $20/hour

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • Crack down on employers and sweat shops.

    Votes: 2 33.3%
  • Bring back the factories.

    Votes: 2 33.3%
  • Elect Bernie Sanders and Donald Trump and other populists.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Give speeches against employers and corporations and other scapegoats.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Admit more immigrant workers.

    Votes: 1 16.7%

  • Total voters
    6
Because his engineering degree he earned at the University of Baghdad didn't count over here.
What do you mean, it didn't count over here?
It means he can't get a job as an engineer. He has the education, but since it was from a university in Iraq, his degree was essentially worthless in 'Murica.
 
Because his engineering degree he earned at the University of Baghdad didn't count over here.
What do you mean, it didn't count over here?
It means he can't get a job as an engineer. He has the education, but since it was from a university in Iraq, his degree was essentially worthless in 'Murica.
The problem is that credentials are only valued by employers if they come from an institution that they recognise and respect as giving a high quality education. But that's an exclusive, not an inclusive, list; They need to either vet each institution themselves, or (more frequently) depend on a government agency to do it for them. But governments have little incentive to do the hard work of vetting foreign institutions, unless the foreign government in question has a reciprocal arrangement in place.

So a degree from a British university might be accepted in the USA, mainly on the basis that US degrees are acceptable in Britain - as long as they come from institutions of a defined standard, and not a diploma mill that gives degrees in exchange for cash.

If his Iraqi degree isn't from an institution known to a prospective employer, it's not going to be worth the paper it's written on.

Meanwhile in New Zealand, the CTV building in Christchurch, which was the only large building to collapse during a large earthquake, was found to have been signed off by a structural engineer with no degrees whatsoever - he had the same name as a person who actually was a structural engineer, and stole that engineer's identity to get the job.

As far as I know, he's still on the run from the NZ authorities.
 
A labor shortage is simply a mismatch between the amount of work employers wish to buy at market wages and the amount of work people are willing to supply at that wage: employers want more work than current labor is willing to offer at this wage. Basic economics suggests that a shortage will result in market forces to raise the market wage until there is a match between what is being offered and what employers wish to buy.

None of the options in the poll really address that reality. Each option will either cause wages to fall (adding immigrants) or cause shortages in different labor markets.

Reality: The economy is geared for more workers than are currently available as so many have been disabled by Covid. Raising wages will only very slowly increase the size of the labor pool, the primary effect will be inflation.
 
A labor shortage is simply a mismatch between the amount of work employers wish to buy at market wages and the amount of work people are willing to supply at that wage: employers want more work than current labor is willing to offer at this wage. Basic economics suggests that a shortage will result in market forces to raise the market wage until there is a match between what is being offered and what employers wish to buy.

None of the options in the poll really address that reality. Each option will either cause wages to fall (adding immigrants) or cause shortages in different labor markets.

Reality: The economy is geared for more workers than are currently available as so many have been disabled by Covid. Raising wages will only very slowly increase the size of the labor pool, the primary effect will be inflation.
Reality: The economy has for years been geared to ensure a labour surplus (unemployment), as a means to prevent wage rises.

Raising wages will barely bring them up to where an equitable division of economic growth between workers and shareholders would have put them to begin with.

If shareholders want to reduce inflation, then they should take massively smaller dividends (and the consequent drop in the value of their investments) as the necessary means to that end.
 
A labor shortage is simply a mismatch between the amount of work employers wish to buy at market wages and the amount of work people are willing to supply at that wage:
But it's more than that. It's also an artificially limited supply of labor. There's a much greater supply of labor available, not only from outside the country, but also inside, because many non-citizens in the country are artificially prohibited from employment. Such artificial restriction on the supply of labor also creates a shortage of labor. So the labor shortage is more than a mismatch between what wage is offered and what wage the job-seekers demand. It's also the artificially low supply of labor due to exclusion of immigrant labor.

employers want more work than current labor is willing to offer at this wage.
Largely because "current labor" is kept artificially low by the exclusion of immigrants from the workforce, which isn't necessary.


Basic economics suggests that a shortage will result in market forces to raise the market wage until there is a match between what is being offered and what employers wish to buy.
Not if raising the wage means no profit for the additional hiring at that higher labor cost. Where higher wage really is the solution, employers are already doing that, raising the wage as needed to attract new workers.

But in cases where the higher labor cost drives the profit down too low, what basic economics suggests is that employers will simply reduce production, or keep it reduced, as long as the extra production would not be profitable. But a greater supply of lower-cost labor could be available if immigrants were not excluded, which would reduce the shortage and increase the production needed; so, making this labor illegal is what causes the shortage. Increasing the supply of immigrant labor, rather than restricting it, is a legitimate way to get production back up where it should be.


None of the options in the poll really address that reality. Each option will either cause wages to fall (adding immigrants) or . . .
What's important is that the option to increase immigrant workers would result in the needed production increase (and reduced shortages), which is the socially-beneficial result we should desire. The wage level would not "fall" as a result, but you could argue that it might not increase as much as some Left-wing ideologues demand. But the socially-beneficial need -- the greatest good for the greatest number -- would be the increased production, no matter what effect there is on the wage level. There is no economic essential need for the wage level to be propped up higher, even though it's politically popular. The essential basic social need is to have higher (efficient) production, regardless whether this or that particular special-interest class gains. What's important is the general benefit to all, to all consumers, not the benefit to any one select class at the expense of others.
 
There's so much bullshit in this post I don't even know where to start.

Progressives are the ones complaining about immigrants?
Excluding immigrants from the workforce is their priority. (Their specialty is not "complaining," but taking action to ensure that immigrants are excluded.)

"Progressive" = Exclusionism (the key word)

They are working with Trumpists to make sure immigrant workers are excluded even though there's much need for them now (and the need was large even before the pandemic). For years businesses have begged Congress to change the law to admit more immigrant workers -- at least increase the number of work visas -- but Progressives have done nothing other than maintain and enforce the law to exclude immigrant workers -- criminalizing them -- who should not be illegal but should have legal status to work in the country.

It's true they are not "complaining" against immigrants and have kind words for them -- they love the immigrants and hate only the employers who hire them because they want immigrants they love to be excluded. The Obama crusade against the "illegal" workers was a more effective and less sensationalist approach than the earlier Bush policy of worksite raids:

https://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/10/us/10enforce.html
The Obama administration has replaced immigration raids at factories and farms with a quieter enforcement strategy: sending federal agents to scour companies’ records for illegal immigrant workers.

While the sweeps of the past commonly led to the deportation of such workers, the “silent raids,” as employers call the audits, usually result in the workers being fired, but in many cases they are not deported.
This indicates that the Left's crusade against the immigrants is not to deport them, but just to make sure they cannot work. Obama's higher number of deportations was less significant than his stepped-up enforcement of laws to exclude them from the workforce, to make sure that immigrants (which they love) are excluded from participating in the economy.

Over the past year, Immigration and Customs Enforcement has conducted audits of employee files at more than 2,900 companies. The agency has levied a record $3 million in civil fines . . . . Thousands of those workers have been fired, immigrant groups estimate.

Employers say the audits reach more companies than the work-site roundups of the administration of President George W. Bush. The audits force businesses to fire every suspected illegal immigrant on the payroll, not just those who happened to be on duty at the time of a raid, and make it much harder to hire other unauthorized workers as replacements. Auditing is “a far more effective enforcement tool,” said Mike Gempler, executive director of the Washington Growers League, which includes many worried fruit growers.

And businesses and corporations (that are flaunting the law and driving down wages by hiring undocumented workers) are the scapegoats?
translation: keep immigrants illegal, vigorously enforce laws to exclude them from the workforce, and vehemently punish the hated employers (but don't "scapegoat" them) trying to survive by circumventing the bad laws which artificially reduce the supply of labor to the detriment of the economy and the whole population.

In the case of health care the harm being done by these bad laws, artificial exclusion of immigrant workers, is summarized in the Sept. 14 hearing:
The facts are clear that there is a need to change these laws so that more immigrants are allowed to enter the workforce. There is sentiment to change this, expressed by Democrats in the hearing, but effectively the Left won't do anything other than make sure the current bad laws go unchanged and instead will be enforced.

It's not immigrants per se who are hated by the Left. Rather, it's working immigrants they hate, and any employers who hire them. (They love the immigrants as long as they are not working but are excluded from the workforce.)
 
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Any one remember when immigrant workers weren't a mainstay of labor in the last 150 years of US History?

Yeah, me neither.
I wasn't yet born yet during WW2 but immigrants certaintly were not a mainstay of anything during that time. The Japanese families were put in camps and women did the factory work. I was alive during the 1960's-70's and would say also that immigrants were not much part of an industrial revolution during that time either. At least where I grew up (midwest).
 
Any one remember when immigrant workers weren't a mainstay of labor in the last 150 years of US History?

Yeah, me neither.

Immigrants Made America Great, in the first place!

Trump's Wall was the most Unamerican of his many policy campaign promises.
Tom
I don' think immigrants had anything to do with America becoming economically great. It was a different system of government originally set up which allowed a much greater freedom for individual liberty than existed anywhere else, especially Latin America.
 
Any one remember when immigrant workers weren't a mainstay of labor in the last 150 years of US History?

Yeah, me neither.

Immigrants Made America Great, in the first place!

Trump's Wall was the most Unamerican of his many policy campaign promises.
Tom
I don' think immigrants had anything to do with America becoming economically great. It was a different system of government originally set up which allowed a much greater freedom for individual liberty than existed anywhere else, especially Latin America.
Why don't you think that immigrants helped make American great? I would agree with you that Indigenous Americans are incredible people; but we didn't do it all on our own.
 
Any one remember when immigrant workers weren't a mainstay of labor in the last 150 years of US History?

Yeah, me neither.
I wasn't yet born yet during WW2 but immigrants certaintly were not a mainstay of anything during that time. The Japanese families were put in camps and women did the factory work. I was alive during the 1960's-70's and would say also that immigrants were not much part of an industrial revolution during that time either. At least where I grew up (midwest).

Read and learn.

By enacting the Emergency Labor Program in 1942, Congress approved the importation of thousands of workers from Mexico, most to work in the fields but some to work on the nation's railroads.

The U.S. Dept. of Agriculture was assigned the responsibility of recruiting, contracting, transporting, feeding, and lodging the temporary farmworkers. So began the "Bracero program," the Spanish word braceros meaning "the strong armed ones." The railroad worker portion of the program, which imported workers to expand rail yards, lay track at port facilities, and replace worn rails-all part of the war effort-stayed in effect until 1945 and employed about 100,000 men.

The farmworker portion of the program was originally thought to be temporary, but after the war, the nation's growers, particularly those in California, vigorously supported the extension of the farm labor portion of the Bracero program, which eventually remained in effect for four decades.

In the post-war years, an even larger force of Mexican workers crossed into California and the Southwest to work in the fields. The exact numbers of these "illegal immigrants" or "undocumented workers" were never really known, although estimates are that each year more than 500,000 undocumented people worked on farms in California and in other states of the region.

Prior, during the depression, most migrant workers were "domestic", i.e. American born, often "Okies" or "hillbillies". But once the war broke out, the most of those able bodied males were deployed in the military, and foreign (immigrant) migrant workers became the mainstay for ag labor.
 
Not yet addressed by anyone regarding the OP, but should be the most important consideration of whether or not immigration is desirable right now, is that of unity and solidarity of the union.

It is hard to argue that the US is becoming extremely polorized right now and suffers from a lack of unity and cohesiveness. This is the exact wrong time for more immigration because (in general) the country needs more unity, not less of it. Even without a language barrier, bringing in more people who have different norms and values is not what is needed today. What we need is for the people who already live here to share common goals and values in order to get along better.

I realize that the economy could perhaps do better with immigration. I can at least see their argument. And it is obvious that the aging baby boomers would benefit greatly from addition labor to change their diapers. But I do not think it is good for the country in todays polorized political climate.

To me, the whole idea of actually wanting more people who are culturally different is a non starter at this point. And it is exactly how Rome fell during its last days.
 
This is the exact wrong time for more immigration because (in general) the country needs more unity, not less of it.

I disagree 100%, though I understand why right wingers don't want anyone else coming to America.

But I do not think it is good for the country in todays polorized [sic] political climate.

The idea that the trumpsucking right is going to "unify" with anyone other than like-minded anti-democratic fascists, is a pipe dream.
Everyone else can "unify" easily enough; the presence of newly arrived immigrants is a benefit to that unity, not a detriment.
If anyone should be forcibly excluded from the chance to become part of a "United" States of America it's those trumpsucking extremists, not immigrants (who generally hold to traditional democratic American principles).
 
A labor shortage is simply a mismatch between the amount of work employers wish to buy at market wages and the amount of work people are willing to supply at that wage: employers want more work than current labor is willing to offer at this wage. Basic economics suggests that a shortage will result in market forces to raise the market wage until there is a match between what is being offered and what employers wish to buy.

None of the options in the poll really address that reality. Each option will either cause wages to fall (adding immigrants) or cause shortages in different labor markets.

Reality: The economy is geared for more workers than are currently available as so many have been disabled by Covid. Raising wages will only very slowly increase the size of the labor pool, the primary effect will be inflation.
That is just economic ignorance. If a shortage of labor causes wages to rise, that is because firms know that the extra hours purchased create more value for the firm than they cost the firm. Furthermore, firms will also have greater incentives to produce without labor. The only way your argument makes any economic sense is if there is no slack in the economy which would mean there is no shortage of labor either.
 
A labor shortage is simply a mismatch between the amount of work employers wish to buy at market wages and the amount of work people are willing to supply at that wage:
But it's more than that. It's also an artificially limited supply of labor. There's a much greater supply of labor available, not only from outside the country, but also inside, because many non-citizens in the country are artificially prohibited from employment. Such artificial restriction on the supply of labor also creates a shortage of labor. So the labor shortage is more than a mismatch between what wage is offered and what wage the job-seekers demand. It's also the artificially low supply of labor due to exclusion of immigrant labor.
From an economics point of view, a shortage is always caused by a below market-clearing price. There is nothing in the market now that prevents employers from inducing more people to work by paying sufficiently higher compensation. Nothing,

Unless you have actual evidence that suggests or shows that the labor shortage would disappear if the current non-citizents were permitted to work, your argument is nonsense.
employers want more work than current labor is willing to offer at this wage.
Largely because "current labor" is kept artificially low by the exclusion of immigrants from the workforce, which isn't necessary
This is the same labor market we have had for decades. For someone who espouses economics, you don't seem to grasp the basics.
Basic economics suggests that a shortage will result in market forces to raise the market wage until there is a match between what is being offered and what employers wish to buy.
Not if raising the wage means no profit for the additional hiring at that higher labor cost.
If that is the case, then there would not be a shortage of labor at the current wage if employers are rational.

Where higher wage really is the solution, employers are already doing that, raising the wage as needed to attract new workers.

But in cases where the higher labor cost drives the profit down too low, what basic economics suggests is that employers will simply reduce production, or keep it reduced, as long as the extra production would not be profitable. But a greater supply of lower-cost labor could be available if immigrants were not excluded, which would reduce the shortage and increase the production needed; so, making this labor illegal is what causes the shortage. Increasing the supply of immigrant labor, rather than restricting it, is a legitimate way to get production back up where it should be.
"Where production should be"? That is your value judgment, not an economic criterion.
None of the options in the poll really address that reality. Each option will either cause wages to fall (adding immigrants) or . . .
What's important is that the option to increase immigrant workers would result in the needed production increase (and reduced shortages),
which is the socially-beneficial result we should desire. The wage level would not "fall" as a result, but you could argue that it might not increase as much as some Left-wing ideologues demand. But the socially-beneficial need -- the greatest good for the greatest number -- would be the increased production, no matter what effect there is on the wage level. There is no economic essential need for the wage level to be propped up higher, even though it's politically popular. The essential basic social need is to have higher (efficient) production, regardless whether this or that particular special-interest class gains. What's important is the general benefit to all, to all consumers, not the benefit to any one select class at the expense of others.
More economic nonsense. Increasing the supply of labor will reduce labor compensation either from its current level or from its level without the shortage.


 
This is the exact wrong time for more immigration because (in general) the country needs more unity, not less of it.

I disagree 100%, though I understand why right wingers don't want anyone else coming to America.

But I do not think it is good for the country in todays polorized [sic] political climate.

The idea that the trumpsucking right is going to "unify" with anyone other than like-minded anti-democratic fascists, is a pipe dream.
Everyone else can "unify" easily enough; the presence of newly arrived immigrants is a benefit to that unity, not a detriment.
If anyone should be forcibly excluded from the chance to become part of a "United" States of America it's those trumpsucking extremists, not immigrants (who generally hold to traditional democratic American principles).
Adding another foreign non english speaking culture to an existing indiginous population (that barely gets along as it is) is your answer to create harmony and unity? That sounds rediculous. Show me any examples throughout the history of mankind where this has worked.

I guess I can understand how you might prefer aliens and non US citizens to people you dissagree with politically..... but if you really feel Mexicans are superior why not just advocate Mexico take over the United States and be done with it?
 
A labor shortage is simply a mismatch between the amount of work employers wish to buy at market wages and the amount of work people are willing to supply at that wage: employers want more work than current labor is willing to offer at this wage. Basic economics suggests that a shortage will result in market forces to raise the market wage until there is a match between what is being offered and what employers wish to buy.

None of the options in the poll really address that reality. Each option will either cause wages to fall (adding immigrants) or cause shortages in different labor markets.

Reality: The economy is geared for more workers than are currently available as so many have been disabled by Covid. Raising wages will only very slowly increase the size of the labor pool, the primary effect will be inflation.
Reality: The economy has for years been geared to ensure a labour surplus (unemployment), as a means to prevent wage rises.

No. That's an inherent property of people changing jobs. No machine with zero tolerances works. Furthermore, when labor shortages cause wages to rise the end result is simply inflation.

Raising wages will barely bring them up to where an equitable division of economic growth between workers and shareholders would have put them to begin with.

If shareholders want to reduce inflation, then they should take massively smaller dividends (and the consequent drop in the value of their investments) as the necessary means to that end.
Standard leftist error.

In reality we have no control over profit margins in the long run--the market sets them.

If profit margins are above market rate new competitors will enter (assuming they are able to--patents etc might prevent this. You can't drive down Apple's profits by making a cheaper iPhone) and competition drives down prices. If profit margins are below market rate when companies fail nobody will expand into the empty piece of the market. (Observation: EVGA has just pulled out of the video card market because profits are too low. It's unlikely anybody will step in.)
 
Adding another foreign non english speaking culture to an existing indiginous population (that barely gets along as it is) is your answer to create harmony and unity? That sounds rediculous.

People aren't languages, Vonse. Nor are they cultures. (And most who have been here any length of time could spell ridiculous or indigenous) Languages and culture are attributes and things they bring with them (or not). That's a dynamic that has been the root of success for American society since day one.

guess I can understand how you might prefer aliens and non US citizens to people you dissagree with politically

Hard for you to understand something that isn't so ... I'm not a nationalist, Vonse.
I "prefer" people who are honest, pacifistic and smart, over violent, stupid reactionaries and their puppetmasters.
Hopefully you can understand that.
 
We don't have a labor shortage.
Whatever jargon you use to describe it, there's a need for workers to do jobs that are going vacant, causing disruption that hurts consumers and drives up prices. And there's a supply of labor to do those jobs which is being artificially suppressed, which could fill that need which otherwise will not be met. Immigration is a legitimate source of labor, traditionally, though it's true that bigotry and xenophobia has suppressed that labor supply many times, but always for the worse. Exclusionism and artificial suppression of free choice generally makes the economy worse, not better.


We have a workforce that woke up during the pandemic and realized that they have power, refusing to work for shit wages and shopping around for a better deal.
It's fine for them to do that, competing and finding better terms. But that's no legitimate reason to artificially suppress the labor supply. Employers who can offer better terms and maintain profitable production are doing so, but declaring war on them by artificially restricting the labor supply only makes the whole economy and all of us worse off. Suppressing production by driving up their cost because you hate employers is not the solution to anything. The solution is to set all producers free, employers and job-seekers, to make their own individual free choices, to seek his/her own "better deal" as they individually choose, rather than the government interfering to impose artificial terms onto them, such as dictating wages or prices to them, or arbitrarily excluding someone in order to artificially suppress the labor supply.


Employers are whining because they "can't find anyone," but if they pared back the CEO's bonuses or accepted a temporary dip in profits in order to attract good employees and . . .
They already do that when it's necessary to improve production, but that's not for outsiders to dictate to them. The company knows what is the best production level, because they have to pay the cost for it. Those who pay the costs are the only ones qualified to make those decisions.

. . . attract good employees and then kept them around by not treating them as fodder, they might find it easier to fill those jobs.
Both the employers and employees are fodder, pressed into service for the benefit of consumers.

Those employers know better than outsiders what the company needs and what better serves production for consumers. They already are increasing wages to attract more employees, but no outsider is qualified to dictate what the exact proper terms are. It's whatever makes consumers better off that determines what the production level should be, not the need to babysit more workers. Production is increased not in order to provide more jobs, but in order to better serve the consumers, with profit motive as the measure of how much extra production is worth how much extra cost. No outsider is qualified to dictate to the company how much extra cost is appropriate -- there is a point beyond which the extra production is not worth that extra cost.


As for seasonal jobs like farm workers? Those can be filled by migrants, but they need legal status, . . .
Then why is this continually being denied to them? The need for these workers has not been met, because the legal status is denied and needed work doesn't get done. Though, fortunately, there is circumvention of the bad laws in order to meet the legitimate need for these workers, or some of the need. But other need goes unmet and consumers suffer the consequences (from shortage of migrant workers). What legitimate purpose is served by inflicting this damage onto consumers and the companies trying to serve them?


. . . legal status, decent wages, and the . . .
The "decent" wage is whatever the worker and employer individually agree to, each exercising his/her free choice. Employers have to increase the wage and terms as necessary to attract the needed workers. For outsiders, like government, to interfere and dictate these terms only makes everyone worse off. What is gained by artificially restricting production by imposing arbitrary terms that don't benefit society? The best terms, for everyone's interest, is whatever the workers and employers themselves agree to individually, without interference from Leftist ideologues pretending to know what everyone's income should be, or Populist fanatics pretending to know who "belongs" here and who does not.
 
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A labor shortage is simply a mismatch between the amount of work employers wish to buy at market wages and the amount of work people are willing to supply at that wage: employers want more work than current labor is willing to offer at this wage. Basic economics suggests that a shortage will result in market forces to raise the market wage until there is a match between what is being offered and what employers wish to buy.

None of the options in the poll really address that reality. Each option will either cause wages to fall (adding immigrants) or cause shortages in different labor markets.

Reality: The economy is geared for more workers than are currently available as so many have been disabled by Covid. Raising wages will only very slowly increase the size of the labor pool, the primary effect will be inflation.
Reality: The economy has for years been geared to ensure a labour surplus (unemployment), as a means to prevent wage rises.

Raising wages will barely bring them up to where an equitable division of economic growth between workers and shareholders would have put them to begin with.

If shareholders want to reduce inflation, then they should take massively smaller dividends (and the consequent drop in the value of their investments) as the necessary means to that end.
At another board, people were aghast at $19 an hour for a worker at McDonalds... and I was thinking that I haven't made $19 or less an hour in over two decades! I couldn't imagine trying to live off of what I made over two decades ago. People in the US have been successfully programmed into buying into the corporate nonsense (I'm being polite).
 
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