New blockade in Minneapolis

[laughing dog]

No one, including me, is expecting police to refrain from firing at someone who has a gun and even appears to be using it or preparing to use it. Yeah, definitions get tricky here and I’m neither going to quibble here nor arm chair a situation where police officers shot a suspect who was firing a weapon or threatening to fire a weapon.

You just did: Tamir Rice.

Tamir Rice did not have a weapon nor did he threaten to fire his toy.

 

[Toni]

Reality check: She was hit by a stray round, not a shot aimed at her. She made the mistake of living with scum.

I didn't realize that "scum" was a clear legal term and that living with scum was grounds for death penalty. Blaming the innocent victim of poor police markmenship for her death is simply insane.

Ever hear the expression: "lie down with dogs, get up with fleas"?

Your insistence that the current insanity of police perpetuating and instigating armed violence is alarming and not terribly rational. All that has given us is more mass shootings.

Mass shootings are caused by the media. The shooters prefer infamy over being nobodies, the media gives them the infamy.

Mass shootings are caused by mass shooters. The media may give some mass shooters motives, but the killers make their choice and act on it. It is insane to think otherwise.

Without the motive there would be almost no events.

Ever hear the saying: racist.

Her EX was a bad guy. Maybe he was her EX because she found out he was a bad guy.

I don’t thing your saying that she was hit ( in her own bed in her own apartment) by a ‘stray round’ is the win you think it is.

The police went to an apartment with a bad warrant with inaccurate information in the middle of the night to look for someone who didn’t live there.

The police were wrong from start to finish.

But they are not the ones who died. They get to go right on living.

Her life mattered. That you cannot see that is a sad reflection on the type of person you are.

 

[Toni]

No it’s not. Shit have t you ever watched a Bruce Lee movie?

And in Westerns the good guy can just shoot the weapon out of the bad guy's hand.

Why don't cops just do that?

Yeah, why don’t they?

You think that's remotely realistic? He's drawing from the drop--the most likely outcome is he's full of lead before he has a chance to get a shot off.

There are plenty of self defense classes offered to the public. A friend of mine used to teach one specifically for women. Mostly I’m sure it gave the women a sense of confidence which, in itself is a deterrent against certain kinds of situations. But it’s also practical. Most attackers don’t expect resistance, much less self defense.

Agreed, but totally irrelevant to the discussion.

No one, including me, is expecting police to refrain from firing at someone who has a gun and even appears to be using it or preparing to use it. Yeah, definitions get tricky here and I’m neither going to quibble here nor arm chair a situation where police officers shot a suspect who was firing a weapon or threatening to fire a weapon.

You just did: Tamir Rice.

But several officers VS a single person with a kitchen knife should never have resulted in a serious injury, much less a fatality. If they couldn’t talk him into dropping the knife then surely one or two of them could have knocked it out of his hand or knocked him down and kicked the knife away.

About as realistic as the video clip above.

How do you propose to talk him into dropping the knife? Remember the timeframe--he was shot at about 1.2 seconds out which means the cops decided to fire at approximately 2.2 seconds out. You need to alot at least a second for him to understand and change his mind. With very optimistic estimates you get to say 3 words and you're stabbed if they don't work.

Again, I would see it differently try if the person had a hostage or had injured or killed another person. As it is now, having a shiny object in your hands in front of a police officer might result in your death. Other countries manage to handle police duties without killing more than a thousand people every year.

There have been mistakes but you're not pointing to them.

You are not worth the trouble to reply to. Unfortunately I cannot put your bullshit on ignore.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No it’s not. Shit have t you ever watched a Bruce Lee movie?

And in Westerns the good guy can just shoot the weapon out of the bad guy's hand.

Why don't cops just do that?

I would settle for the police simply hit only their intended target and nothing else, but apparently that expectation is too high.

Yup, that's experienced special forces level skill.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I said he was stopped for jaywalking, which is an indisputable fact thoroughly attested to by witnesses including Officer Wilson.

Stopped for jaywalking, not shot for jaywalking. You're being very deceptive.

No, you are literally making stuff up.

More importantly, if he hadn’t been stopped for jaywalking, the subsequent tragedy would have occurred.

You can find plenty of if-onlys leading up to it.

The only important one is that he went after Wilson. He used street reactions (never back down, lest you lose your position) against a cop.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

No one, including me, is expecting police to refrain from firing at someone who has a gun and even appears to be using it or preparing to use it. Yeah, definitions get tricky here and I’m neither going to quibble here nor arm chair a situation where police officers shot a suspect who was firing a weapon or threatening to fire a weapon.

You just did: Tamir Rice.

Tamir Rice did not have a weapon nor did he threaten to fire his toy.

Weapons are treated as real until determined fake.

And he drew the weapon--that's easily a prelude to firing.

People treat realistic replica weapons far too casually.

 

[Toni]

No one, including me, is expecting police to refrain from firing at someone who has a gun and even appears to be using it or preparing to use it. Yeah, definitions get tricky here and I’m neither going to quibble here nor arm chair a situation where police officers shot a suspect who was firing a weapon or threatening to fire a weapon.

You just did: Tamir Rice.

Tamir Rice did not have a weapon nor did he threaten to fire his toy.

Weapons are treated as real until determined fake.

And he drew the weapon--that's easily a prelude to firing.

People treat realistic replica weapons far too casually.

No, he did not. Watch the dam video. It appears that the officers—you know: responsible adults children are taught to trust—asked him to show it to them.

 

[TomC]

Weapons are treated as real until determined fake.

And he drew the weapon--that's easily a prelude to firing.

People treat realistic replica weapons far too casually.

Pretty much this.
The people most responsible for Tamir Rice's death are the people who bought him that replica gun, modified it to be more realistic, then let him take it to a public park. In an area where armed young black men cause a lot of trouble.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

I said he was stopped for jaywalking, which is an indisputable fact thoroughly attested to by witnesses including Officer Wilson.

Stopped for jaywalking, not shot for jaywalking. You're being very deceptive.

No, you are literally making stuff up.

More importantly, if he hadn’t been stopped for jaywalking, the subsequent tragedy would have occurred.

@
You can find plenty of if-onlys leading up to it.

Just employing your MO.

The only important one is that he went after Wilson. He used street reactions (never back down, lest you lose your position) against a cop.

It is the only important one for knee jerk police apologists. No jaywalking stop, nothing happens.

 

[laughing dog]

Weapons are treated as real until determined fake.

And he drew the weapon--that's easily a prelude to firing.

People treat realistic replica weapons far too casually.

Pretty much this.
The people most responsible for Tamir Rice's death are the people who bought him that replica gun, modified it to be more realistic, then let him take it to a public park. In an area where armed young black men cause a lot of trouble.
Tom

Actually, using your reasoning it is people like you and LP who readily let the police off from shootings like this.

 

[TomC]

Actually, using your reasoning it is people like you and LP who readily let the police off from shootings like this.

What reasoning are you referring to? And what makes you think that Loren and I "readily let the police off"?

Neither of us needed to pile on the "cops did a bad thing here" bandwagon. There was plenty of that going on.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Actually, using your reasoning it is people like you and LP who readily let the police off from shootings like this.

What reasoning are you referring to? And what makes you think that Loren and I "readily let the police off"?

tithe content of yiur and his posts.

Neither of us needed to pile on the "cops did a bad thing here" bandwagon. There was plenty of that going on.
Tom

And yet you felt compelled to assess most blame to non-shooters .

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A woman deserved to be killed by police officers for the sim

Sim? As in simulation?

of living in a neighborhood you think was bad and having once upon a time dated a guy who turned out to be not great.

More than "not great", he was a drug dealer. That said, nobody is saying BT "deserved to be killed", so that's a strawman.

But it was her fault she was murdered in her own bed and not no knock warrrants or out of date warrants that sent police to the wrong address.

It was not "murder".

If I remember correctly Tamir Rice’s crime was being tall for his age and playing with a toy with the orange tip missing.

TR case was a tragic series of bad decisions, by TR himself, by the dispatcher, by the responding officers. Not a murder, but horrible nevertheless.
TR was very tall and big for 12 - in fact he was of an adult size. That is not a crime, despite your continuing strawmanning, but it certainly affected how he was perceived by both the initial caller and the officers. If I remember correctly, his stature was 97th percentile, and his weight off the charts. He was same stature/weight as Z, who was in his 20s.

Not the fault of the police dispatcher who failed to convey that it was likely a toy or the police officers who assassinated a child within seconds of roaring up in their police car.

No, the officers share part of the blame. That does not make it "murder", much less "assassination". You are quick to defend Mohammed Noor for what you call a "split second decision", but are using hyperbolic language here to condemn the officers. Mind you, Damond was not armed, not even with a realistic looking replica gun like TR was.

Loren, you’ve got a real problem—two problems: You worship police and you think black people are all crimsons who provoke police brutality by…,existing.

Some black people are crimsons, but plenty of white people are crimson too.

And that provokes police brutality only if the police are Auburn fans.

To get serious again, what do the tragic cases of Breanna Taylor and Tamir Rice have to do with this case, where police defended themselves from an attack by a knife-wielding assailant? From all evidence, they showed exemplary restraint, using a taser first. They only used their firearms when the attacker advanced to ~4 m (or ~1.2 s at the speed he was going) from them.

Tamir Rice was 12 years old and perhaps developmentally delayed. Even if he were not delayed, a 12 year old does not think the same way an adult does. I watched the video of his shooting —and yes, it was 100% unjustified which means it was murder—and it was obvious that this was a child and a child who was being deferential to the adult police officers, who did not show even a modicum of professional or adult judgement when they sped up to this child and killed him. In under 4 seconds. Tamir Rice’s height and weight matter not at all. By your reasoning, I should be perceived as a 10 year old child —many a 10 year old has stood next to me, quietly measuring their height against mine and feeling happy to be almost my height. Hell, I was my full height at age 12! Big fucking deal. I was still 12 and thought like a child.

Police officers and indeed, anyone who carries or even owns a firearm have an absolute duty to ensure that they use their firearms appropriately, taking all care and caution and only fire at appropriately identified targets.

My opinion woukd be vastly different if there had been reports of a gun being fired—even if it were determined that Tamir Rice did not fire the shots and was only in possession of a toy. But there were no reports of shots fired and absolutely nothing to justify his murder.

Noor was appropriately charged for killing Justine Ruszczyk. He was responsible for her death, was charged and convicted with the charges being amended upon appeal to be in compliance with Minnesota statute. He at least had the excuse of being startled when he was called to a reported crime scene. That did not make him not responsible for his serious lack of judgment and the crime he committed.

The officers who killed Tamir Rice were not startled. They simple killed the child who willingly, shyly came towards them.

Why do we have to discuss Tamir Rice every damn thread?! The officers clearly blasted into the scene, provided themselves and Rice not a second to think before shooting him and then not aiding Rice, but putting his relative (sister?) in the back of the car while he bled out.

The shooter was dismissed from a suburb PD for not being mature enough to be a cop. Then he proved it when a non-incident turned into a killing.

 

[TomC]

Actually, using your reasoning it is people like you and LP who readily let the police off from shootings like this.

What reasoning are you referring to? And what makes you think that Loren and I "readily let the police off"?

tithe content of yiur and his posts.

Neither of us needed to pile on the "cops did a bad thing here" bandwagon. There was plenty of that going on.
Tom

And yet you felt compelled to assess most blame to non-shooters .

Not really.
I pointed out out that there was plenty of blame to spread around.

Nobody needed me to point out the blame correctly attributed to the cops. Damn near everyone on IIDB was willing to help with that task.

I pointed out that there was more going on there than that. A lot more.
Tom

 

[laughing dog]

Actually, using your reasoning it is people like you and LP who readily let the police off from shootings like this.

What reasoning are you referring to? And what makes you think that Loren and I "readily let the police off"?

tithe content of yiur and his posts.

Neither of us needed to pile on the "cops did a bad thing here" bandwagon. There was plenty of that going on.
Tom

And yet you felt compelled to assess most blame to non-shooters .

Not really.
I pointed out out that there was plenty of blame to spread around.

Nobody needed me to point out the blame correctly attributed to the cops. Damn near everyone on IIDB was willing to help with that task.

I pointed out that there was more going on there than that. A lot more.
Tom

You continue to feel the need to prove my point. Thanks.

 

[Politesse]

Weapons are treated as real until determined fake.

And he drew the weapon--that's easily a prelude to firing.

People treat realistic replica weapons far too casually.

Pretty much this.
The people most responsible for Tamir Rice's death are the people who bought him that replica gun, modified it to be more realistic, then let him take it to a public park. In an area where armed young black men cause a lot of trouble.
Tom

Would you say generally that it is a citizen's responsibility to prove to the police that they aren't dangerous?

 

[TomC]

Would you say generally that it is a citizen's responsibility to prove that they aren't dangerous, rather than the police's responsibilty to determine whether someone is dangerous before ending their life?

Generally, yes.
It's easy to do nearly always.

Some circumstances are different, but most often yes I think it's the responsibility of the citizen to avoid giving even a hint of threat.
Tom

 

[Politesse]

Would you say generally that it is a citizen's responsibility to prove that they aren't dangerous, rather than the police's responsibilty to determine whether someone is dangerous before ending their life?

Generally, yes.
It's easy to do nearly always.

Some circumstances are different, but most often yes I think it's the responsibility of the citizen to avoid giving even a hint of threat.
Tom

If the media landscape has it right and things truly have descended into running guerilla warfare in the cities a la Haiti or Sudan, perhaps that's fair.

But if it is, it makes sense to treat the police as a public threat, not "a part of the neighborhood" or a "peace officer" or a "servant and protector" or any of the things civic propaganda is at pains to portray them as. They're always crying about morale and recruitment problems because the public dislikes and distrusts them, but it is entirely rational to distrust someone who will kill you for making the wrong move according to themselves, someone who makes up their own rules about what makes a citizen look "safe" enough to live, independently of the law.

 

[bilby]

Weapons are treated as real until determined fake.

And he drew the weapon--that's easily a prelude to firing.

People treat realistic replica weapons far too casually.

Pretty much this.
The people most responsible for Tamir Rice's death are the people who bought him that replica gun, modified it to be more realistic, then let him take it to a public park. In an area where armed young black men cause a lot of trouble.
Tom

Would you say generally that it is a citizen's responsibility to prove to the police that they aren't dangerous?

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the police to shoot on sight anyone they suspect may be bearing Arms, shall not be infringed".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Weapons are treated as real until determined fake.

And he drew the weapon--that's easily a prelude to firing.

People treat realistic replica weapons far too casually.

Pretty much this.
The people most responsible for Tamir Rice's death are the people who bought him that replica gun, modified it to be more realistic, then let him take it to a public park. In an area where armed young black men cause a lot of trouble.
Tom

Would you say generally that it is a citizen's responsibility to prove to the police that they aren't dangerous?

I would say it's more general--don't go around acting like you're a dangerous threat to anybody. Not just the cops.

Realistic replica weapons should carry just about the same restrictions that real guns do.