New "don't say gay" bill in Florida

[Gospel]

Compulsory education should not be a stalking ground for groomers.

Aw shit I gotta rant on this one..

A school's/teacher's job is to educate
A parent's job is to give food & shelter to the little mutha fuckas as well as the guidance they need to establish & strengthen agency.

The world is going to tell my children all sorts of shit (already has through school, friends, internet etc), I ain't worried about none of that cause I'm very confident that the tools I've given them will work & I'll support them in any choice they make for themselves; granted it's not against the law.

IMO there is one thing you should not do as a parent & teacher and that is to remove a child's agency. It's important to allow them to understand things on their own terms as best you can without installing yourself (don't know how else to say it). To avoid doing that as a teacher/school you need the parent's involvement, as you cannot do anything else as a school/teacher other than educate. If you attempt to educate without the parent's involvement you are inherently removing the child's agency as only a parent can provide the guidance they need (if the parent(s) are available and capable). Otherwise, you'll be changing that school/teacher-student relationship to something more complicated than you're equipped to handle. At that point, all the school can do is recommend third-party assistance. Why in the world would anybody find that more desirable than working with parents is beyond me.

This mom doesn't sound like she's upset about what was being taught, she was upset about not being informed and I'm am totally onboard with her ship setting sail up the ass of the school board.

 

[Jarhyn]

the guidance they need to establish & strengthen agency.

Heresy!

/s

(Is it just me or does it seem like this is entirely the thing that those of bad faith wish to prevent: the formation and strengthening of agency?)

 

[TomC]

This mom doesn't sound like she's upset about what was being taught, she was upset about not being informed and I'm am totally onboard with her ship setting sail up the ass of the school board.

It's also one anecdotal video.

I could post a terrible story about my son being persecuted for visiting his gay dad and being quizzed about our sexual escapades.
I don't even have a kid, but nobody could stop me from posting on social media or credibly demonstrate that I'm lying.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

This mom doesn't sound like she's upset about what was being taught, she was upset about not being informed and I'm am totally onboard with her ship setting sail up the ass of the school board.

It's also one anecdotal video.

I could post a terrible story about my son being persecuted for visiting his gay dad and being quizzed about our sexual escapades.
I don't even have a kid, but nobody could stop me from posting on social media or credibly demonstrate that I'm lying.
Tom

That's what he said

 

[TomC]

This mom doesn't sound like she's upset about what was being taught, she was upset about not being informed and I'm am totally onboard with her ship setting sail up the ass of the school board.

It's also one anecdotal video.

I could post a terrible story about my son being persecuted for visiting his gay dad and being quizzed about our sexual escapades.
I don't even have a kid, but nobody could stop me from posting on social media or credibly demonstrate that I'm lying.
Tom

That's what he said
View attachment 37179

Sorry to be stupid.
But I don't know who that is. My best guess is Jussie Smollet. But I'm not betting anything.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Yup that's Juicy.

 

[TomC]

Yup that's Juicy.

Here's an important difference.
I'm not filing a police report. I'm just posting stuff on the internet.
Tom

 

[Rhea]

A school's/teacher's job is to educate
A parent's job is to give food & shelter to the little mutha fuckas as well as the guidance they need to establish & strengthen agency.

You assume all the parents are doing that job… (any of those jobs)

2 things I cannot un-see:

- The little 1st grader who asked me if he could read aloud to me (classroom volunteer) to fulfill his assignment because no one at home would listen.
- The outraged parent at my town board meeting screaming to shut down the library because it contained the Twilight Series, and all a family need was One Book, anyway - the Good Book.

Those children are being failed at home. They have questions about themselves and they have bad information about their friends. I am happy with teachers educating on BIOLOGY as well at math.

And does any parent doing their job have anything to fear from the teacher? They talk about homosexulity, you say, “yup it’s out there, we don’t agree with it, but you’re going to hear it, and here’s what our family thinks.” That’s what I did about their pernicious religion, after all.

 

[funinspace]

<an overgeneralization>

It is not without their knowledge, merely without their consent.

Parents have exactly zero right to tell their kids what is and is not normal/acceptable behavior as regards sex, sexuality, and beyond "it must be with consent, and within the acceptable "visibility level" as regards behavior in general.

Educators have an obligation to offer insight as relates the immediate needs and conflicts as experienced by the people in their institution.

Generally this means answering questions about sex, especially when abusive parents withhold such knowledge.

As stands, nobody is proposing anyone grooming children to have sex with adults, though it is interesting that is where Trausti's mind immediately leaps when thinking about discussing sex with children

Why are you so obsessed with a child’s sexuality?

This used to be trolling, but now it seems to actually be their "argument".

When adults want to talk about sex with kids without their parents’ knowledge we call them groomers.

Can't stuff more fallacies into a sentence, as far as I'm aware.

Goats often aren't good cute animals for a petting zoo, as they may butt hard into the kiddies. Don't provoke or feed them...

 

[funinspace]

This is precisely the kind of toxic, repressive legislation that led to the climate of anti-LGBT violence in Russia. This cancer is going to spread, and it is going to get worse. America's right-wing went through a brief period of shying away from direct political attacks against LGBT, but apparently, DeSantis is determined to use a more homophobic and transphobic variant of the strategy that Trump was using, starting in 2009.

Though it may get worse for a while, I do think this is a dead end ally for the right wing. Most people under 40 or so think this kind of shit is looney, and if this is a major campaign issue the Repugs will slowly loose on this front. The aging white demographics in Arizona and Georgia particularly are going to damage the Repugs, never mind that this is slowly eating away their margins in Texas and Florida (though Florida has one of the more complicated mix of voting groupings, making it really hard to predict).

 

[SigmatheZeta]

Compulsory education should not be a stalking ground for groomers.

Aw shit I gotta rant on this one..

A school's/teacher's job is to educate
A parent's job is to give food & shelter to the little mutha fuckas as well as the guidance they need to establish & strengthen agency.

The world is going to tell my children all sorts of shit (already has through school, friends, internet etc), I ain't worried about none of that cause I'm very confident that the tools I've given them will work & I'll support them in any choice they make for themselves; granted it's not against the law.

IMO there is one thing you should not do as a parent & teacher and that is to remove a child's agency. It's important to allow them to understand things on their own terms as best you can without installing yourself (don't know how else to say it). To avoid doing that as a teacher/school you need the parent's involvement, as you cannot do anything else as a school/teacher other than educate. If you attempt to educate without the parent's involvement you are inherently removing the child's agency as only a parent can provide the guidance they need (if the parent(s) are available and capable). Otherwise, you'll be changing that school/teacher-student relationship to something more complicated than you're equipped to handle. At that point, all the school can do is recommend third-party assistance. Why in the world would anybody find that more desirable than working with parents is beyond me.

This mom doesn't sound like she's upset about what was being taught, she was upset about not being informed and I'm am totally onboard with her ship setting sail up the ass of the school board.

I am going to rant at you back, then.

Teachers do not need your permission to teach your offspring that the earth revolves around the sun.

Teachers do not need your permission to teach your offspring that gay people are a natural minority in their society.

These are scientifically well-supported facts, and that is an appropriate standard for the instruction of youth.

Objecting to that does not make you "based" or "post-woke," but it makes you petulant and silly.

 

[Gospel]

I didn't say teachers needed permission to teach. I said teachers need parent involvement because teachers can't be parents.

Edit: I literally said the teacher's job is to educate. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[SigmatheZeta]

This is precisely the kind of toxic, repressive legislation that led to the climate of anti-LGBT violence in Russia. This cancer is going to spread, and it is going to get worse. America's right-wing went through a brief period of shying away from direct political attacks against LGBT, but apparently, DeSantis is determined to use a more homophobic and transphobic variant of the strategy that Trump was using, starting in 2009.

Though it may get worse for a while, I do think this is a dead end ally for the right wing. Most people under 40 or so think this kind of shit is looney, and if this is a major campaign issue the Repugs will slowly loose on this front. The aging white demographics in Arizona and Georgia particularly are going to damage the Repugs, never mind that this is slowly eating away their margins in Texas and Florida (though Florida has one of the more complicated mix of voting groupings, making it really hard to predict).

There is a repressed current of homophobia, in American politics, and I think that there is going to be more trouble, from this quarter, in the next several years.

The shocking rise in anti-LGBTQ hate crime shows bigotry is still ruining lives | Owen Jones

Sadly, blending in for a quiet life remains a necessary survival strategy for far too many people in Britain today, says Guardian columnist Owen Jones

www.theguardian.com

This is not just a sudden wave, but it is more like a rising tide. I don't have any question as to whether or not it is going to get worse, but my questions are more in the nature of how bad the violence is going to get and how long it is going to last.

 

[Gospel]

A school's/teacher's job is to educate
A parent's job is to give food & shelter to the little mutha fuckas as well as the guidance they need to establish & strengthen agency.

You assume all the parents are doing that job… (any of those jobs)

2 things I cannot un-see:

- The little 1st grader who asked me if he could read aloud to me (classroom volunteer) to fulfill his assignment because no one at home would listen.
- The outraged parent at my town board meeting screaming to shut down the library because it contained the Twilight Series, and all a family need was One Book, anyway - the Good Book.

Those children are being failed at home. They have questions about themselves and they have bad information about their friends. I am happy with teachers educating on BIOLOGY as well at math.

And does any parent doing their job have anything to fear from the teacher? They talk about homosexulity, you say, “yup it’s out there, we don’t agree with it, but you’re going to hear it, and here’s what our family thinks.” That’s what I did about their pernicious religion, after all.

only a parent can provide the guidance they need (if the parent(s) are available and capable).

I enlarged the part you missed.

 

[SigmatheZeta]

I didn't say teachers needed permission to teach. I said teachers need parent involvement because teachers can't be parents.

You cannot possibly remove all references to the existence of straight people from the curriculum without effectively stripping it down to arithmetic. Straight people are mentioned in almost every great work of literature in history. They are in every single sociology and history textbook. It is almost impossible to teach a biology class without at least touching on the concept of heterosexuality, whenever the subject of genetics comes up. We would have to abolish Valentine's Day, and schools would have to ban the majority of Christmas music. Trying to erase all mention of heterosexuality from the education system would be outright madness.

Demonstrate to me how that would even be practical.

 

[Gospel]

What in the twinkling stars are you talking about? I have no clue how what I said is in any way related to your response.

 

[TomC]

What in the twinkling stars are you talking about? I have no clue how what I said is in any way related to your response.

You didn't actually say it, but I also read

I didn't say teachers needed permission to teach. I said teachers need parent involvement( to talk about homosexuality )because teachers can't be parents.

into your post. It's the topic of the thread, after all.
Sorry if I was mistaken.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

---

I was responding to a video of a parent that was not angry about what was being taught, but upset about not being involved. And don't inject words into my quotes without explicitly making it clear you made an addition.

 

[Gospel]

But I understand the confusion (I guess).

 

[SigmatheZeta]

What in the twinkling stars are you talking about? I have no clue how what I said is in any way related to your response.

I just assumed that you were a person that had integrity.

You want teachers to get the permission of parents before talking with them about sexuality, but the subject of sexuality is expansive. Just by discussing Romeo and Juliet, by Shakespeare, teachers are introducing children to the concept of sexuality. The tradition of teaching children how to make cards for St. Valentine's Day, which includes actively encouraging them to ask members of the opposite sex to be their Valentine, constitutes instruction on sexuality. A large proportion of Christmas music has references to sexuality. Even a book as innocent as Tuck Everlasting, which I read as required reading because it was considered to be an important philosophical discussion on mortality, contained a heterosexual relationship as a part of its plot.

Since you are a person that has integrity, I assume that you would also want to demand that teachers should ask for the permission of parents before teaching these ideas to children, too. You would not want heterosexual relationships to be treated any differently from homosexual relationships.

However, I am afraid that your demands, here, are impractical, strange, and complicated to enforce.

I don't want to accuse you outright of demanding a double-standard. I am just giving you the rope. I am not telling you what to do with it. If you wanted to, you could take that rope and use it to build a bridge to new understanding.