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New paper: Dissolving the Fermi Paradox

I don't see how it's ego mania to explore and solve puzzles. In fact, I can't think of anything more useful in inspiring someone to get over themselves in a big way. People who think the scientific endeavor is all about them personally rarely solve or discover anything.
 
Curiosity about the universe for it's own sake? Awesome.

I think you will find that this is the mindset of any exobiologist you run into.

Curiosity about the universe because we think we're so important that we just have to find others like us and impregnate every piece of habitable land we can get our hands on? Na.
This is the mindset of the science fantasy genre, not exobiologists. Just looking at the diversity of lifeforms on the one example of a planet with life that we have should dissuade any thinking person of a belief that there is life on other planets "like us".


ETA:
Just an aside.... I still think that the field of exobiology is rather humorous. It is a whole field dedicated to studying something with nothing available to study but our own imagination. The study of extremophiles here on Earth (which is still just biology) may help us in understanding some life if we find it out there but isn't exobiology.
 
I think the most logical explanation is that long before developing FTL (if that’s even possible), intelligent civilizations would develop the ability to upload consciousness (if that’s even possible), or otherwise develop fully realized artificial/vr/matrix-esque worlds that would be so immersive and exotic as to become complacent within them. As Lennon (John) once said, “thought is the best way to travel.”

Iow, if the prospect is leaving your loved ones on a journey that could take several generations to complete compared to uploading your consciousness into a little black eternity box, where you could live eternally in your own private “lucid” dream state, I’d pick black box and would fully expect our robot probes to find planets littered with them.
 
I think the most logical explanation is that long before developing FTL (if that’s even possible), intelligent civilizations would develop the ability to upload consciousness (if that’s even possible), or otherwise develop fully realized artificial/vr/matrix-esque worlds that would be so immersive and exotic as to become complacent within them. As Lennon (John) once said, “thought is the best way to travel.”

Iow, if the prospect is leaving your loved ones on a journey that could take several generations to complete compared to uploading your consciousness into a little black eternity box, where you could live eternally in your own private “lucid” dream state, I’d pick black box and would fully expect our robot probes to find planets littered with them.

I've heard this one discussed many times, but if any humans are aware that there's a reality "out there" that they can access and explore, some most certainly will regardless of the risks. The only way a VR world could contain all of humanity is if there is no one left who is aware that the VR is not the real world.
 
I don't see how it's ego mania to explore and solve puzzles. In fact, I can't think of anything more useful in inspiring someone to get over themselves in a big way. People who think the scientific endeavor is all about them personally rarely solve or discover anything.

Curiosity about the universe for it's own sake? Awesome.

I think you will find that this is the mindset of any exobiologist you run into.

Curiosity about the universe because we think we're so important that we just have to find others like us and impregnate every piece of habitable land we can get our hands on? Na.
This is the mindset of the science fantasy genre, not exobiologists. Just looking at the diversity of lifeforms on the one example of a planet with life that we have should dissuade any thinking person of a belief that there is life on other planets "like us".


ETA:
Just an aside.... I still think that the field of exobiology is rather humorous. It is a whole field dedicated to studying something with nothing available to study but our own imagination. The study of extremophiles here on Earth (which is still just biology) may help us in understanding some life if we find it out there but isn't exobiology.

Yea, I don't necessarily think studies like the one in the OP are reflective of the perspective I'm mentioning, more popular culture and the popular imagination (and maybe even some more material examples *cough* Musk *cough*)

We may have figured out that the sun doesn't revolve around the earth, and that religion is untrue, but science is far from done sticking a dagger through our egoist anthropocentric perspective. If anything it's just getting started.
 
I think the most logical explanation is that long before developing FTL (if that’s even possible), intelligent civilizations would develop the ability to upload consciousness (if that’s even possible), or otherwise develop fully realized artificial/vr/matrix-esque worlds that would be so immersive and exotic as to become complacent within them. As Lennon (John) once said, “thought is the best way to travel.”

Iow, if the prospect is leaving your loved ones on a journey that could take several generations to complete compared to uploading your consciousness into a little black eternity box, where you could live eternally in your own private “lucid” dream state, I’d pick black box and would fully expect our robot probes to find planets littered with them.

so basically porn. I agree this is plausible for many civilizations.
 
I think the most logical explanation is that long before developing FTL (if that’s even possible), intelligent civilizations would develop the ability to upload consciousness (if that’s even possible), or otherwise develop fully realized artificial/vr/matrix-esque worlds that would be so immersive and exotic as to become complacent within them. As Lennon (John) once said, “thought is the best way to travel.”

Iow, if the prospect is leaving your loved ones on a journey that could take several generations to complete compared to uploading your consciousness into a little black eternity box, where you could live eternally in your own private “lucid” dream state, I’d pick black box and would fully expect our robot probes to find planets littered with them.

so basically porn. I agree this is plausible for many civilizations.

As Lee Camp says, porn and kittens. If we figure out a way to mix those two things, we're fucked. We'll forget to eat.
 
I can get behind this, I just don't like where the sentiment comes from. There is still a sense of self importance among us, that we're Gods and not just 'a part of the universe'. Even if people aren't religious we still can't seem to get over this sense that because we aren't monkeys, that we're extremely important, and that other 'intelligent' life is also just as important.

Yet in practice we're catty, underhanded, selfish, cruel, war creators, maybe we should be running from other intelligent life. Maybe the next real step isn't space, it's getting the fuck over ourselves and starting to make good decisions.

That is kind of what I meant by tragically ironic. Imagine the entire universe. There's one intelligent species with the capacity to understand at least to a degree, the universe they inhabit, and it's...us. Perhaps it should have been another species, one more..."worthy", I guess.

Perhaps human beings are evidence both that gods exist and that they have a serious drinking problem?
 
Maybe not a planet such as ours around a star such as ours, but a slightly larger planet (to ensure geological activity doesn't die off, assuming it's even essential) around a slightly smaller star can pull it off after 15 billion years too. A star's lifetime decreases proportional to the 3rd power for every increase in mass. This means a star with 0.7 solar masses (0.25 solar luminosities, but that just means the habitable zone will be half closer) lives about 3 times as long as the sun.

Earth's problem is the sun warming. So far Earth has kept the balance by reducing CO2 levels but that will only work for another 50 million years or so and then the Earth will warm. While that won't wipe out life it will favor small, rapidly-reproducing species that can evolve fast.

Yeah, so? A planet whose sun develops three times slower has about three times the time for all of that -- and a star whose habitable zone is half way in is already such a sun, no need for super-close, tidally locked orbits and all the complications they bring.

Can you have such a planet without tidal locking developing?
 
Yeah, so? A planet whose sun develops three times slower has about three times the time for all of that -- and a star whose habitable zone is half way in is already such a sun, no need for super-close, tidally locked orbits and all the complications they bring.

Can you have such a planet without tidal locking developing?

Definitely.

Not around a star with 0.15 solar masses and a lifetime in the trillions, but I'm explicitly talking about a star with, say, 0.7 solar masses and a lifetime merely three times that of ours.

Luminosity is approximately proportional to the 4th power of mass, so a star with 0.7 solar masses has about 24% of the suns luminosity. Due to the square law, you only need to move in half of Earth's distance to get the same irradiation. That would put you about half way between Venus and Mercury in the solar system -- neither of which are tidally locked. With a less massive parent star, such a planet would be even less likely to be tidally locked at a comparable distance.

Lifetime (on the main sequence) is fuel available / fuel use rate, thus mass / luminosity, or MASS-3. For 0.7 solar masses again, that comes out as 2.9 solar lifetimes. Not in the trillions by a long shot, but more than enough to give life significantly more time to develop.
 
Just an aside.... I still think that the field of exobiology is rather humorous. It is a whole field dedicated to studying something with nothing available to study but our own imagination. The study of extremophiles here on Earth (which is still just biology) may help us in understanding some life if we find it out there but isn't exobiology.

The study of exremophiles may not be exobiology, but a lot of it is funded because of its role in helping us understand the possibilities and constraints on life as we know it in very different environments, conducted by one or the other exobiology institute (including NASA's), and is publicised as such.
 
I think the most logical explanation is that long before developing FTL (if that’s even possible), intelligent civilizations would develop the ability to upload consciousness (if that’s even possible), or otherwise develop fully realized artificial/vr/matrix-esque worlds that would be so immersive and exotic as to become complacent within them. As Lennon (John) once said, “thought is the best way to travel.”

Iow, if the prospect is leaving your loved ones on a journey that could take several generations to complete compared to uploading your consciousness into a little black eternity box, where you could live eternally in your own private “lucid” dream state, I’d pick black box and would fully expect our robot probes to find planets littered with them.

I've heard this one discussed many times, but if any humans are aware that there's a reality "out there" that they can access and explore, some most certainly will regardless of the risks.

Consider global warming. I may be wrong, but I believe we're already dead; a fait accompli that cannot be reversed. It's like an explosion and we're hummingbirds, so our perception of how long the explosion takes to finally rip us apart is skewed.

We may want to explore strange new worlds and boldly go where (apparently) millions of other intelligent species have already gone before judging from Star Trek, but unless we can come up with FTL (or its equivalent) within the next century (or figure out how to explode a Genesis device here on Earth), we're fucked. Uploading into robot bodies and/or indestructible nuclear powered black vr boxes may be the only option available (if, indeed, either actually can be options).

Would this be true of all intelligent civilizations? Would they all evolve in to competitive douchebags out to kill each other off and sell everything short with no regard for their own future? Well, we only have one test species available for a case study and based on that, we'd have to conclude, yep! Any species that evolves to our off-world capabilities would evidently kill the golden goose in order to achieve that goal in a horrible twist of irony.

Iow, nature evidently "wants" intelligent species to take care of nature, not try to escape from it. Our drive to develop the technology that allows us to leave the planet is ironically the very thing that has poisoned the planet (for us) making our leaving it all the more imperative. Which I personally find hilarious, but that's beside the point. Every step forward in that direction results in two steps back so that we will have killed ourselves just before we finally put all the pieces together.

Unless we're talking suicide arks, of course, but that's just going to result in a dozen or so drifting deep space mausoleums, basically.

Or we can try to colonize Mars, but then, the technology that would allow us to survive there would be better used to try to survive here and both would eventually end up failing, most likely. We'd extend our species extinction by a few generations but what's the point if the planets we live on will always remain specie-killers for us?

The only way a VR world could contain all of humanity is if there is no one left who is aware that the VR is not the real world.

That would take about two or three generations. Look how ubiquitous our current tech is. I'm 52 and even I can't remember how we all got around without smartphones, or being able to deposit a check with a photograph and a minute later transfer funds to pay all my bills, etc. The small conveniences exponentially multiply to the point where even today we are on the brink of having no need for long term (or short term) memory, since that can all be handled by a device and "knowledge" need not be retained since it's a google search away. The more shortcuts we rely on technology to perform for us, the less we retain independently and the more dependent we become on the tech. Fold. Spin. Repeat.

And yes, there will always be luddites, but again, unless they are the last remaining Mensa brigade, if they're stuck on Earth it's either going to be black boxes or radically depleted life spans due to living underground (if our species can even survive in that environment, since it will first be an artificial transplant recreation of above ground environments that will in turn eventually break down and either be the death knell or create some version of the Morlocks).

Plus, the boxes need not contain the whole world. I'm not suggesting they would be linked or anything. Consider our dreamstate ability. Somehow our brains are capable of creating entire narratives--often nonsensical, but typically only out of context of the dream--where chronological time (in the objective sense) doesn't exist. In a dream, you can "live" a thousand years in what is actually a couple of minutes or less, objectively.

The point being that we are already in a matrix; we are already brains in vats, we just call them skulls. Analogues (selves) animated by our brains are placed into virtual worlds all the time (i.e., maps of the external or dreamscapes), with varying degrees of time dilation and exotic experiences that, while in the dream at least, seem completely real and no different than our waking state.

So we know the "technology" exists, it's just an electro-chemical technology that we have barely begun to investigate. So, in keeping with the hummingbird experiencing an explosion analogy, we could live millions of years in a tear drop and while it wouldn't objectively be interactive, it would be subjectively interactive exactly the way dreams are (and the waking state, to be ontologically/philosophically exact). We exist right now in a virtual reality created by our brains, so the theory behind it already has a practical application.

Iow, you would never know the difference, because you would never wake up from the dream. And that dream--that eternal existence inside the black box--could all take place in an instant from the perspective of the black box. Just imaging if, after reading what I just wrote, you sat back in your chair, look around at your surroundings and then decided it was time to fly up into the air to eat at your favorite restaurant in Prague. NOTHING else changes other than your ability to just superman your way anywhere in the world.

That's the kind of dream state tech that exists right now in our brains, so if we can replicate it in a black box that can't be destroyed by climate change (or slower than light space travel), then problem solved, but then again, if we could do that, why ever leave the black box? Curiosity? How curious do you think you'd be on a space craft that for hundreds (if not thousands/millions) of years never encounters anything remotely interesting, because that's how unbelievably huge is our universe?

Hell, think of driving from Toronto to Miami. Sure, you could do it (and maybe when you were young you loved such long car rides), but if you can fly their in a third of the time, wouldn't you? And if they had super sonic flight that got you there in an hour? Half hour? Ten minutes?

We are (in general) creatures of comfort and leisure once we discovered fire and soap. So my guess would be this would be true of any evolved species as the steps would all be pretty much the same. Step one, kill or be killed every hour. Step two, kill or be killed every day. Step three, kill or be killed every week...
 
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The article's home page: [1806.02404] Dissolving the Fermi Paradox

I read that paper, and it strikes me as gross hand-waving. It's hard to see how the authors got their numbers, and the authors did not review any of the details that go into fl, fi, fc, and L. Admittedly, those estimates would be derived from our only known biota, the one on our planet, but that's better than nothing. I discuss those details here:

The Drake Equation Revisited | NexusZine
The Drake Equation: Life | NexusZine
The Drake Equation: Intelligence | NexusZine
The Drake Equation: Communication | NexusZine
The Drake Equation: Lifetime | NexusZine
 
Yeah, so? A planet whose sun develops three times slower has about three times the time for all of that -- and a star whose habitable zone is half way in is already such a sun, no need for super-close, tidally locked orbits and all the complications they bring.

Can you have such a planet without tidal locking developing?

Definitely.

Not around a star with 0.15 solar masses and a lifetime in the trillions, but I'm explicitly talking about a star with, say, 0.7 solar masses and a lifetime merely three times that of ours.

Luminosity is approximately proportional to the 4th power of mass, so a star with 0.7 solar masses has about 24% of the suns luminosity. Due to the square law, you only need to move in half of Earth's distance to get the same irradiation. That would put you about half way between Venus and Mercury in the solar system -- neither of which are tidally locked. With a less massive parent star, such a planet would be even less likely to be tidally locked at a comparable distance.

Lifetime (on the main sequence) is fuel available / fuel use rate, thus mass / luminosity, or MASS-3. For 0.7 solar masses again, that comes out as 2.9 solar lifetimes. Not in the trillions by a long shot, but more than enough to give life significantly more time to develop.

Mercury is resonance-locked. The whole planet does get sunlight but it's probably more unfriendly to life than an eyeball planet.
 
The article's home page: [1806.02404] Dissolving the Fermi Paradox

I read that paper, and it strikes me as gross hand-waving. It's hard to see how the authors got their numbers, and the authors did not review any of the details that go into fl, fi, fc, and L.

I don't see it as hand-waiving. Rather, they were going through the literature and noting the estimates of others. They then went through those and treated each as a probability range and did a monte carlo simulation.

Unfortunately, this only captures estimates that actually have numbers--and thus misses the whole rare earths hypotheis.
 
Definitely.

Not around a star with 0.15 solar masses and a lifetime in the trillions, but I'm explicitly talking about a star with, say, 0.7 solar masses and a lifetime merely three times that of ours.

Luminosity is approximately proportional to the 4th power of mass, so a star with 0.7 solar masses has about 24% of the suns luminosity. Due to the square law, you only need to move in half of Earth's distance to get the same irradiation. That would put you about half way between Venus and Mercury in the solar system -- neither of which are tidally locked. With a less massive parent star, such a planet would be even less likely to be tidally locked at a comparable distance.

Lifetime (on the main sequence) is fuel available / fuel use rate, thus mass / luminosity, or MASS-3. For 0.7 solar masses again, that comes out as 2.9 solar lifetimes. Not in the trillions by a long shot, but more than enough to give life significantly more time to develop.

Mercury is resonance-locked. The whole planet does get sunlight but it's probably more unfriendly to life than an eyeball planet.

A planet half way between Mercury and Venus in absolute distance around a star with only 0.7 solar masses - thus under under a gravitational regime pretty much like Venus - wouldn't be.

Bottom line, the Sun is nowhere near the Lower mass limit for having non-tidally locked HZ planets -- and by consequence nowhere near the upper longevity limit for a habitable planet's parent star.
 
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I do not see how the Drake Equation can yield accurate results. In order to apply probabilities you have to have data.

The equation is what I call a what if function. It allows you to vary prametrs and evaluate relative effects of variables.

Assigning binary probabilities seems pointless. A distribution along with an expected value needs to be assigned to variables. There is not enough information for that.

What is the probability of a goldilocks zone planet by star type, mass and so on. The distributions may not be Gaussian.
 
I do not see how the Drake Equation can yield accurate results. In order to apply probabilities you have to have data.

The equation is what I call a what if function. It allows you to vary prametrs and evaluate relative effects of variables.

Assigning binary probabilities seems pointless. A distribution along with an expected value needs to be assigned to variables. There is not enough information for that.

What is the probability of a goldilocks zone planet by star type, mass and so on. The distributions may not be Gaussian.

The Drake equation isn't about actually finding an answer. It's about defining the problem.
 
Here is a Anders-Sandberg---Dissolving-Fermi-Paradox-UKSRN, a slideshow file.

BTW, I think that I understand what is going on in this paper: collecting estimates and turning them into probability distribution functions. I found a lot of useful stuff in the supplement files, like a list of estimates in the professional literature.

Their results: the probability of N being less than one per Milky-Way-sized galaxy is about 30%, and for being less than one per observable Universe is about 10%.
 
Here is a Anders-Sandberg---Dissolving-Fermi-Paradox-UKSRN, a slideshow file.

BTW, I think that I understand what is going on in this paper: collecting estimates and turning them into probability distribution functions. I found a lot of useful stuff in the supplement files, like a list of estimates in the professional literature.

Their results: the probability of N being less than one per Milky-Way-sized galaxy is about 30%, and for being less than one per observable Universe is about 10%.

I agree that they are collecting estimates. I have a big problem with the results, though. Rare Earths made a good case for life normally not making it to intelligence but no numbers and so it doesn't show up in this. I also find their arguments about the odds of life arising require Earth to be quite an outlier beyond the observer effect.
 
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