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No thread on Patrick Lyoya?

TomC

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Thanks TC.
So … two in the last twenty-something years that come to mind. I had forgotten about that IL case.
Two, off the top of my head, that I know enough about to have a confident opinion. Just the first two, Castile and more are also there. But I didn't spend all day posting multiple answers to your question.
But I bet I could find twenty white guys unjustly shot by cops in the same period or less.
Could you, really, without googling or anything? I didn't have to google, I already knew about them.

So it’s basically not a problem involving racism whatsoever. It’s just that it’s hard being a cop and people make mistakes.
And here's where your strawman comes in. I only gave you two point blank answers, so you respond with "not a problem involving racism whatsoever." as though I said anything like that.

That, to me, is Woke.

Tom
 

Gospel

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anecdotal evidence
What's anecdotal about the evidence I provided and my statement in relation to that evidence? It makes sense to disagree with my argument and explain how it's not supported by the evidence. But to call it anecdotal is strange. If that's the case then all arguments presented with evidence are personal accounts. It's either you agree with my argument based on the evidence or you don't. Calling it a personal account is a new thing that needs explaining in and of itself.

Maybe you didn't take a moment to absorb what I was trying to say, which is normal. I'm used to that.
 

TomC

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What's anecdotal about the evidence I provided and my statement in relation to that evidence?
Everything.
You ignored what I said about the big problem, posted an anecdote, then said
If that's the case then all arguments presented with evidence are personal accounts.
Which is totally untrue.

If I present evidence from the FBI website concerning the rates of violent crimes, broken down by age race and sex, that isn't a personal account. If I base an argument on those statistics, it isn't me me making an argument based on personal accounts.

Maybe the only arguments you care about are based on personal accounts. It's a common feature of American culture. But not all of us do things that way.
Tom
 

Gospel

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Who disputes that Lyoya was killed because the officer thought his life was in danger?
Who disputes that Philando was killed because the officer thought his life was in danger?

Speak up.

Edit: Hint my argument is not what you think. It's about there never being enough a black person can do to not justify an officer killing them as long as the officer thinks that their life is in danger.
 
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Elixir

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And here's where your strawman comes in. I only gave you two point blank answers, so you respond with "not a problem involving racism whatsoever." as though I said anything like that.
That’s called “facetious” - my mistake.
To clarify, it’s a request to explain what in your representations differs from other means of deflection from the simple fact of violent racism in police practices.
 

Toni

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Who disputes that Lyoya was killed because the officer thought his life was in danger?
Who disputes that Philando was killed because the officer thought his life was in danger?

Speak up.

Edit: Hint my argument is not what you think. It's about there never being enough a black person can do to not justify an officer killing them as long as the officer thinks that their life is in danger.
There are no appropriate emojis or symbols to indicate that I acknowledge, respect and deeply regret from the bottom of my heart the veracity of your words.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Beginning in infancy, black children are regarded as being stronger, more impervious to pain, less vulnerable compared with their white peers. From toddlerhood/preschool onward, daycare and teachers are more likely to be punished and punished more harshly than their white peers for exactly the same behavior. This pattern only escalates as the children grow older, throughout their school years and beyond. They are regarded as less intelligent, which in schools these days means less compliant and any small offense is seen as a larger offense than with a white child.

Reality: Back before the insane zero tolerance days history mattered. Yes, blacks often got punished more--because they had more of a record of wrongdoing. I'm thinking of the one time I got sent to the principal's office (I had been defending myself against an attack by some bullies.) The principal took one look at me, said "I haven't seen you before, you can go." "Same" action (fighting), very different outcome--because the principal applied some common sense and realized I was the victim. That's your "discrimination".
Loren you maybe ought to think a bit harder before you post this sort of thing. Someone might get the idea that you hold some pretty ingrained racial prejudices.
Nobody involved was black. One was Hispanic.
 

Toni

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Beginning in infancy, black children are regarded as being stronger, more impervious to pain, less vulnerable compared with their white peers. From toddlerhood/preschool onward, daycare and teachers are more likely to be punished and punished more harshly than their white peers for exactly the same behavior. This pattern only escalates as the children grow older, throughout their school years and beyond. They are regarded as less intelligent, which in schools these days means less compliant and any small offense is seen as a larger offense than with a white child.

Reality: Back before the insane zero tolerance days history mattered. Yes, blacks often got punished more--because they had more of a record of wrongdoing. I'm thinking of the one time I got sent to the principal's office (I had been defending myself against an attack by some bullies.) The principal took one look at me, said "I haven't seen you before, you can go." "Same" action (fighting), very different outcome--because the principal applied some common sense and realized I was the victim. That's your "discrimination".
Loren you maybe ought to think a bit harder before you post this sort of thing. Someone might get the idea that you hold some pretty ingrained racial prejudices.
Nobody involved was black. One was Hispanic.
Cool.

We’re all aware that children’s guilt or innocence is often determined by the perceptions of whatever authority is making the decision. That’s rather the point. It is so very easy for a child to be thought guilty of something —or truly to have been guilty and then so judged from them on. As school children.

I know you won’t see this but you’ve made my case.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Beginning in infancy, black children are regarded as being stronger, more impervious to pain, less vulnerable compared with their white peers. From toddlerhood/preschool onward, daycare and teachers are more likely to be punished and punished more harshly than their white peers for exactly the same behavior. This pattern only escalates as the children grow older, throughout their school years and beyond. They are regarded as less intelligent, which in schools these days means less compliant and any small offense is seen as a larger offense than with a white child.

Reality: Back before the insane zero tolerance days history mattered. Yes, blacks often got punished more--because they had more of a record of wrongdoing. I'm thinking of the one time I got sent to the principal's office (I had been defending myself against an attack by some bullies.) The principal took one look at me, said "I haven't seen you before, you can go." "Same" action (fighting), very different outcome--because the principal applied some common sense and realized I was the victim. That's your "discrimination".
Loren you maybe ought to think a bit harder before you post this sort of thing. Someone might get the idea that you hold some pretty ingrained racial prejudices.
Nobody involved was black. One was Hispanic.
Cool.

We’re all aware that children’s guilt or innocence is often determined by the perceptions of whatever authority is making the decision. That’s rather the point. It is so very easy for a child to be thought guilty of something —or truly to have been guilty and then so judged from them on. As school children.

I know you won’t see this but you’ve made my case.
The point is he judged innocence by the fact that I had zero prior history--a quite reasonable conclusion. However, it was the sort of thing that results in black kids being treated "worse". Virtually all research that shows "racism" fails to include obvious controls. Note your claim: "exactly the same behavior". At the time we walked into the room the apparent behavior was exactly identical. I didn't get treated differently for being white, I got treated differently based on history.
 

Toni

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Beginning in infancy, black children are regarded as being stronger, more impervious to pain, less vulnerable compared with their white peers. From toddlerhood/preschool onward, daycare and teachers are more likely to be punished and punished more harshly than their white peers for exactly the same behavior. This pattern only escalates as the children grow older, throughout their school years and beyond. They are regarded as less intelligent, which in schools these days means less compliant and any small offense is seen as a larger offense than with a white child.

Reality: Back before the insane zero tolerance days history mattered. Yes, blacks often got punished more--because they had more of a record of wrongdoing. I'm thinking of the one time I got sent to the principal's office (I had been defending myself against an attack by some bullies.) The principal took one look at me, said "I haven't seen you before, you can go." "Same" action (fighting), very different outcome--because the principal applied some common sense and realized I was the victim. That's your "discrimination".
Loren you maybe ought to think a bit harder before you post this sort of thing. Someone might get the idea that you hold some pretty ingrained racial prejudices.
Nobody involved was black. One was Hispanic.
Cool.

We’re all aware that children’s guilt or innocence is often determined by the perceptions of whatever authority is making the decision. That’s rather the point. It is so very easy for a child to be thought guilty of something —or truly to have been guilty and then so judged from them on. As school children.

I know you won’t see this but you’ve made my case.
The point is he judged innocence by the fact that I had zero prior history--a quite reasonable conclusion. However, it was the sort of thing that results in black kids being treated "worse". Virtually all research that shows "racism" fails to include obvious controls. Note your claim: "exactly the same behavior". At the time we walked into the room the apparent behavior was exactly identical. I didn't get treated differently for being white, I got treated differently based on history.
Yeah, I watched a kid get accused and sent to the principal's office to be paddled for something I knew he didn't do--because he wasn't at school the day the offense happened. I pointed it out to the teacher--who did NOT back down and I was on her shit list for the rest of the school year. He also was awarded low scores whenever she could. For a while, I also thought he was a little behind in math and reading but she had me work with him and nope, he was wicked smart and knew what he was doing. He was also smart enough to realize it didn't matter to the teacher--she did not like him and was convinced he wasn't very smart and was very bad. My observation was that he was really quite smart and also a bit mischievous but not mean or 'bad.' Unlike the teacher's favorite who struggled to keep up (for real: I also 'got' to work with him) and mean---he frequently subjected another student who had some developmental delays to merciless ridicule for no other reason that he could--the teacher observed it and encouraged it.

Past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior ---to a point. Even good kids sometimes do rotten things. Even 'bad' kids sometimes are the hero or at least are innocent. Smart kids get answers wrong and the less smart kids (according to teacher) sometimes is correct.

Most kids know when a teacher is being fair with regards to students and when they are not. Of course, kids have their own prejudices. The mean, dumb boy was liked by most of the boys in class--I never understood why, to tell the truth. He wasn't smart or funny or much better than a bit above average in athletic ability. But there are limits. If the teacher is set against a particular student, deserved or not, often the rest of the class tolerates it and sometimes even adopts the same perception--Liz or Ben isn't very good at (fill in the blank) or is bad or loud or messy or whatever.

Kids who grow up in homes where people who look a certain way are considered to be less honest, less smart, less moral, less (fill in the blank), whether such perceptions are explicit or subtle, very often adopt the same attitudes. Not always, but fairly often. Especially if it is reinforced in the community: schools, other authority figures, other family members and family friends.

That does NOT mean that those in the out group are less honest, less smart, less moral, whatever. It's just that they are judged so.

In the US, very often people with southern accents are portrayed in movies and on TV as being less intelligent and less well educated. So are people with many types of other accents, especially Hispanic ones or those who speak in a black vernacular. People who speak with a certain kind of NY accent are thought to be privileged, intelligent, wealthy, well educated. People with different NY accents are not. NJ accents? Forgetabodit. I can't remember which movie we were watching---very old black and white--when the character who was supposedly from Wisconsin (i.e. a rube, if sweet and innocent) had a vaguely southern accent!
 

ZiprHead

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The cop that shot Lyoya in the back of the head has been charged with second degree murder.
 

Derec

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The cop that shot Lyoya in the back of the head has been charged with second degree murder.
Another political prosecution/persecution, just like the Rayshard Brooks case in Atlanta - another drunk driving loser who took an officer's taser.
You could say Schurr is getting Mike Nifonged.

Can Grand Rapids police go on strike to protest this blatant miscarriage of justice?
 

laughing dog

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The cop that shot Lyoya in the back of the head has been charged with second degree murder.
Another political prosecution/persecution, just like the Rayshard Brooks case in Atlanta - another drunk driving loser who took an officer's taser.
You could say Schurr is getting Mike Nifonged.

Can Grand Rapids police go on strike to protest this blatant miscarriage of justice?
By law, it is illegal for police in Michigan to strike.

It is good Schurr is charged. Let’s see if this case ever gets to a jury.
 
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