No thread on Patrick Lyoya?

[Derec]

^ Derec’s rationale for instituting a police State … but not a racist one, of course.
Property damage.

Nobody here is seeking to institute a police state. That's pretty slanderous.
However, those who commit crimes such as destroying property should be held responsible regardless of race or political positions.
Why are you so loathe to admit that political violence from the left is just as wrong as from the right?

P.S.: learn to quote, oldtimer.

 

[Derec]

And judgments from the police or DAs or you are?

Of course not, although police and DAs are more knowledgeable on the matters of law than 12 random people.
But we should look at the actual facts of the case no matter what DAs and juries say. Thing is, you never try to make a reasoned argument from the facts - you always go to questionable arguments from authority.
The facts here are pretty simple: Gaines threatened police with a firearm and was thus a credible threat to police and also to her child who was in the apartment with her. The entire thing is on her. She escalated a situation that was a simple FTA warrant into an armed standoff.

Nice straw man. Apparently you feel unilateral judgments from DAs or the police or you are the paragons of finding out the truth. While I can understand the appeal, it is ridiculous.

I do not think that, which is why this is not a straw man. At least not on my part.
DAs can be wrong. Sometimes they know better, but still do it for political reasons like Mike Nifong (Crystal Magnum) and Paul Howard (Rayshard Brooks), sometimes they are just fallible human beings.
Which is why we should always go to the facts of the case in question.
Like this Lyoya guy: he had fake plates - not just expired plates, but plates belonging to another car, implying criminal intent. Which is why he was stopped.
He had his license revoked, but still drove. He had two open warrants, including for domestic violence.
Instead of coöperating with police, he ran and then fought with the officer for an extended period, including trying to grab the officer's taser.
Those are the facts. Given those facts, why do you think the officer is in the wrong, rather than Lyoya?

Doubling down on the misogyny is not a convincing argument. She is pretty much an arrogant dumbbell.

You have a ridiculously broad definition of "misogyny".

However, upon further reflection, I withdraw me calling her a "bitch". It was uncalled for. The females of canis lupus familiaris have done nothing to deserve such a comparison. For that matter, neither did free weights.

I'm not the one who has a persistent and irrational animus towards black shooting victims and #BLM.

Animus toward #BLM is quite rational. They are a horrible organization that has set race relations in this country back decades.
I do not have any animus toward Lyoya. I wish he had made better choices and was alive.
I do have an animus toward faux-liberal media that tries to sanitize him and pretend that he had no fault in what happened to him. Take for example NPR.
Patrick Lyoya fled Congo to escape war. A traffic stop in Michigan cost him his life
It's pretty much a hagiography. No mention of warrants or criminal record. Not even of the revoked license. Even the NY Times piece was much more evenhanded.

Of course you do.

Because it fits the facts. Did you even watch the video?

There is no basis in rationality for your conclusion.

You know, argumentation is more than automatic gainsaying of everything the other person says.
Which parts of the paragraph you were replying to do you disagree specifically, and, most importantly, why? Please be specific.

P.S.: As I told Elixir, learn to quote, oldtimer.

 

[Derec]

Shooting someone in the back of the head when you have him pinned to the ground is definitely wrong, particularly when he is unarmed.

He wasn't pinned to the ground. Pinning somebody implies that they have been immobilized. Lyoya was moving around until the end, trying to get up. Also, unarmed does not mean that he is not a threat. In hand-to-hand combat with a police officer, an unarmed perp can arm him or herself with the officer's weapon. That has happened many times before, sometimes with fatal consequences.

Police Killed With Their Own Guns

"Unarmed" is a red herring with perps who are willing to use force to avoid going to jail.

From what I saw and read, it sounded like Lyoya panicked, grabbed at a taser and the cop panicked, and shot him in the back of the head after he had already subdued him.

Did you watch the whole video? Lyoya was not subdued at any point. He continued to resist throughout the encounter.
I agree that he probably panicked because he did not want to go to jail. But he had plenty of time to stop resisting and comply. What was his goal? To tire the officer down so much that he could get away? Would he resort to harming the officer if he thought it necessary to escape? Do you think the officer should have to take that chance?

I think that shooting a suspect carries a high threshold of reasonableness and need. Shooting one in the back of the head while the suspect is face down on the ground with you on top of him? Quite a lot higher.

Just because the officer was on top of the perp does not mean he was immobilized. He continued to struggle and grab for the taser. He already once successfully got up after the officer was on top of him.

There are many questions about this shooting, starting with whether or not the police officer was correct in pulling him over in the first place:

You do not think fake plates are sufficient grounds to pull somebody over? This is not even a case of expired plates (as in the St. Daunte case), these were plates that belong to another vehicle.

Police license plate reader under question in traffic stop before Patrick Loyoa killed

GRAND RAPIDS, Mich. (WWMT) – The Lyoya family's attorney is questioning whether Michigan police were right to pull Patrick Lyoya over the morning he was shot and killed. Caption: Police license plate reader under question in traffic stop before Patrick Loyola killed (WWMT) Lyoya's car is seen...

thenationaldesk.com

Horrible headline. The only one who questions it is the Lyoya family shyster, and he has a vested interest in muddying the waters. From the article:

It's unclear if Schurr knew Lyoya's driver's license was revoked or whether he knew there was an active arrest warrant out for Lyoya. Grand Rapids Police said Lyoya was pulled over because of a license plate did not match the car's registration.
"If you determine the plate is not valid and pull them over, you have a legitimate, legal traffic stop," Langham said.

Unlike family shyster Ven Johnson, Lewis Langham, a former police officer and now a defense attorney, is a disinterested party here.

FFS, police need to really, really, really learn that shouting at people when you have a gun pointed at them is unlikely to get you a calm, reasoned response to whatever question or demand you are shouting. Instead, people panic and someone gets hurt, often dead. Of course it's usually the person who is being shouted at so no big deal I guess, especially if his skin is dark.

There is no evidence that Lyoya's skin color had anything to do with this. Why do you leftists want to make everything about race?

FWIW, racism is an enormous problem in Grand Rapids:

Funny how "racism" is always just anti-black racism. Never anti-white racism. For example Al Sharpton, who made a lucrative career out of hating whitey, spoke at St. Patrick of Lyoya's funeral.
Or how about this tweet?


"Cave imp" (and similar) is a common slur against white people by black nationalists and black power types. Note that this is not considered hate speech by "totally unbiased" Twitter moderators.

 

[Toni]

What the fuck does some random tweet have to do with well documented racism in Grand Rapids?

Police need to quit shouting at people because it’s extremely ineffective at communicating what you want someone to do. That has absolutely nothing to do with skin color.

 

[JohnG]

James Woods the actor used to do this all the time on Twitter too. Find a crime committed by a black person caught on camera and wave it around to prove to everyone that POC are bad. His followers threads were big on this type of content.

I'm not accusing you of this Derec, Im sure your motives are pure.

 

[laughing dog]

And judgments from the police or DAs or you are?

Of course not, although police and DAs are more knowledgeable on the matters of law than 12 random people.
But we should look at the actual facts of the case no matter what DAs and juries say. ........

Facts held shape opinions and judgments, but so do biases and values. The jurors in that civil case heard testimony (which you did not), and saw all the evidence (which you did not). Of course, you can disagree with their unanimous verdict, but their verdict is clear evidence that your opinion was not widely held as valid.

You have a ridiculously broad definition of "misogyny".

However, upon further reflection, I withdraw me calling her a "bitch". It was uncalled for. The females of canis lupus familiaris have done nothing to deserve such a comparison. For that matter, neither did free weights.....

With each response you confirm my observation.

I'm not the one who has a persistent and irrational animus towards black shooting victims and #BLM.

Animus toward #BLM is quite rational. They are a horrible organization that has set race relations in this country back decades.....

Every organization has it good people and bad people. One could make the same comment about the police if one were to focus on the bad apples.

.

Of course you do.

There is no basis in rationality for your conclusion.

You know, argumentation is more than automatic gainsaying of everything the other person says.

Just following your example.

Which parts of the paragraph you were replying to do you disagree specifically, and, most importantly, why? Please be specific.

There is no evidence that another police officer on the scene would have prevented that tragedy.

P.S.: As I told Elixir, learn to quote, oldtimer.

The quality of my quotes reflected the quality of your responses.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Shooting someone in the back of the head when you have him pinned to the ground is definitely wrong, particularly when he is unarmed.

From what I saw and read, it sounded like Lyoya panicked, grabbed at a taser and the cop panicked, and shot him in the back of the head after he had already subdued him.

I think that shooting a suspect carries a high threshold of reasonableness and need. Shooting one in the back of the head while the suspect is face down on the ground with you on top of him? Quite a lot higher.

There are many questions about this shooting, starting with whether or not the police officer was correct in pulling him over in the first place:

Saw?? Did you not see an extended struggle over the taser? The cop didn't fire because of a grab at the taser. I think the cop fired at the loss of the taser--which would be perfectly justified. Means, motive and opportunity:

Means: Yes, use the taser to incapacitate the officer, take his gun. Even if it's already been fired it still works at contact range.

Motive: The guy has already shown he doesn't intend to permit the officer to arrest him. The officer isn't required to bet his life on how far the guy will go in resisting.

Opportunity: He's within contact range on the taser.

 

[Derec]

"American of great distinction" is the new "Prince of Brooklyn Center" or "the day he was killed, he was spreading the word of Jesus Christ".

'Enough is enough:' Friends, family gather for Patrick Lyoya's funeral

Congresswoman Brenda Lawrence spoke at the funeral.
“This is personal to me,” said Rep. Lawrence.
Lawrence is Michigan’s only member of Congress of African descent. Rep. Lawrence honored the Lyoya family during her speech, proclaiming Patrick as an “American of great distinction.”

He was a poser and a criminal. There is nothing "of great distinction" in Patrick Lyoya's life. Dudes like him are a dime a dozen. And Congresswoman Brenda Lawrence is an idiot for saying what she said.

 

[Gospel]

If only black people would stop glorifiying or supporting those who glorify thug life will we be able to affect change and reduce rap sheets. I think if we stop supporting artists that glorify violence we may have a chance. For exaple these guys,

Thug life glorifier and profiteer Puff Daddy


thug life glorifier and profiteer Ja Rule


Thug life glorifier and profiteer Lil Wayne


Thug life glorifier and profiteer 50 Cent


Thug life glorifier and profiteer Lil Pump.



If we can just stop the black community from supporting these people and put their money in their community instead we might be able to make a difference.

 

[Elixir]

If we can just stop the black community from supporting these people

If we could stop white people … problem solved.

 

[Gospel]

If we can just stop the black community from supporting these people

If we could stop white people … problem solved.

I'm very serious about the hood culture and the people they admire (or strive to be tougher or crazier than). It's a real thing. This doesn't mean that outside influences are nonexistent for example; most thug life music artists get the majority of their money from the white population. But it is a very serious problem in our neighborhoods and seeing success stories of how the life of crime was used to get out of the hood you'd think people would actually give it a go.

 

[Trausti]

If we can just stop the black community from supporting these people

If we could stop white people … problem solved.

I'm very serious about the hood culture and the people they admire (or strive to be tougher or crazier than). It's a real thing. This doesn't mean that outside influences are nonexistent for example; most thug life music artists get the majority of their money from the white population. But it is a very serious problem in our neighborhoods and seeing success stories of how the life of crime was used to get out of the hood you'd think people would actually give it a go.

'It's not my fault you paid $250,000 and I paid a buck'

Three years ago, Lamar Grace left Detroit for the suburb of Southfield. He got a good deal — a 3,000-square-foot colonial that once was worth $220,000. In foreclosure, he paid $109,000.

www.nbcnews.com

Three years ago, Lamar Grace left Detroit for the suburb of Southfield. He got a good deal — a 3,000-square-foot colonial that once was worth $220,000. In foreclosure, he paid $109,000.

The neighbors were not pleased.


"They don't want to live next door to ghetto folks," he says.

That his neighbors are black, like Grace, is immaterial. Many in the black middle class moved out of Detroit and settled in the northern suburbs years ago; now, due to foreclosures, it is easy to buy or rent houses on the cheap here. The result has been a new, poorer wave of arrivals from the city, and growing tensions between established residents and the newcomers.

 

[TSwizzle]

That's such a shame. If only there was some sort of mortgage forgiveness program.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Shyster is too good a word for them.

You've been told before but for some reason...

Every word that we speak carries its own history. A tale of travel, a silly story or heavy hatred in its every syllable. Ethnophaulisms, or ethnic slurs, have their own etymology, which is important to understand to see why these words should not continue in modern vocabulary. The JT collected this short, incomplete list of words used against Jewish people to explore where they came from.

...

Shyster: Readers, please be warned and take care that this one is particularly offensive. This word was defined as “unscrupulous lawyer” in 1843’s U.S. slang according to the Online Etymology Dictionary, probably altered from German Scheisser “incompetent worthless person,” from Scheisse “shit” from Old High German skizzan “to defecate.”

 

[Derec]

You've been told before but for some reason...

Told what exactly? That some website considers the term offensive?

I know where the term (likely) comes from. "Scheisser" - "shitter" - a fitting term for a bullshit artist hearse chaser like Crump. And he is not even Jewish btw.

I have noticed this from you and other posters on the left. Whenever you have zero arguments about the actual issue of the thread, you like to belabor minutiae such as this "language police" derail.

 

[Derec]

If we could stop white people … problem solved.

Signature Elixirian racism.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

...hearse chaser...

Isn't that what you're doing?

 

[Derec]

Isn't that what you're doing?

No.

 

[ZiprHead]

Isn't that what you're doing?

No.

I disagree.

 

[Playball40]

The list of his previous crimes needs some clarification. The "unlawful use of a motor vehicle" is really stealing cars. I wonder if the car he drove that fateful day was stolen or why else there would be fake plates on it. So far, the police won't confirm this one way of the other:

What??? No. That is not equal to stealing cars.

People around here do that all the time. They have three cars and one license plate. Or they keep old plates from previous cars so that they have a plate while driving around, but that plate was long ago made inactive, but they don’t have money to register or insure the current one. It’s not legal, but they do own all the cars, and none of them are stolen. This one might be stolen, but the mis-matched plate is not what proves it.

And let's NOT FORGET, the police would have had to have RUN THE PLATE to know it was a mis-match. They didn't PULL HIM OVER for that - they saw a black guy in a car and just decided he looked suspicious.