No thread on Patrick Lyoya?

[Gospel]

Everything he did was evasive, not aggressive. .

That's totally bullshit.
Evasive would have started with driving sober. He had a BAC that would put most people in the hospital. Seriously, .29?

Nothing Lyoya did was evasive or defensive. He attacked.
And attacked.

And wound up dead. He lost his battle with society. The one he'd been fighting for some time. The one he was fighting in the car, before he got pulled over.
.29 BAC.
He was a violent perp. He lost that particular fight.
Tom

Hey I don't like the guy either, but I'm not gonna use my imagination to explain away why him getting shot in the back of the head over a misdemeanor is acceptable.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Grand Rapids

1. Deadly Force Applications a. Officers may discharge a firearm in connection with the performance of their official police duties to:

(1) Defend against a reasonable threat of death or serious bodily injury to himself/herself.
(2) Defend against a reasonable threat of death or serious bodily injury to another officer or citizen.
(3) Prevent the escape of a subject who is fleeing from an inherently violent felony crime, when the officer has probable cause to believe that the subject poses a reasonable threat of death or serious bodily injury to the officer or others.


(1) That's quite a lot of WWE wrestling to receive no injury. But I guess it's reasonable for him to believe after all that time struggling with Lyoya that all of a sudden he'd get injured somewhere, sometime down the road.

The only apparent threat to the officer was from having the taser taken, but it looks to me like he might have gotten it.

 

[Gospel]

The officer sure didn't secure that tazer after shooting him.

Edit: remember folks..the color of that taser. Play the where's waldo game and find the taser in his hand.

 

[Gospel]

Another game we can play is how many times a taser can be fired and how many times it was fired and by whom.

 

[Gun Nut]

The fact you feel the need to ask that question speaks volumes. Resisting arrest is not an automatic death sentence penalty in the USA.

Neither is driving drunk.
But drunk driving does often result in dying.
Tom

Are you really comparing a death due to an accident (drunk driving) to death from a deliberate action (shot in the back of the head in "self defense) or just failing to be clever?

In one case, a person deliberately chooses to drive drunk (and incidentally causes harm). In another case, a person deliberately chooses to attempt to take a cop's weapon (and incidentally causes harm).
Apples and Oranges... are both fruit.

 

[Gun Nut]

If that officer was fast enough to realize that "Action is faster than reaction" and shoot to kill in the back of the head, he was fast enough to back off.

Why should police officer have to back off in light of a perp resisting arrest?

The fact you feel the need to ask that question speaks volumes. Resisting arrest is not an automatic death sentence penalty in the USA.

Pet peeve: "This sub-task is no cause for a reaction to the whole"
No drop of water is responsible for the flood.

"Since when is death the penalty for a BLACK PERSON to simply twitch their finger slightly!!!!?one1?"
Ever since that person chose to hold a gun, point it at someone, and position that finger over the trigger, obviously.

"Since when is having a run in the park deserving of EXECUTION BY THE GOVERNMENT"
Ever since that person chose to wield a knife and run directly at a group of children while screaming, "I'll kill them all!!!", obviously.

and, most relevantly, "since when does having a little scuffle with someone create cause to be shot??"
Ever since that person chose to have a scuffle with a clearly identified police officer and attempt to take their weapon(s).

Again, it used to be the case that shooting someone in the back was considered cowardly.

and it is used to be a "war crime" to not line up in a neat row to face your enemy on an open battlefield and take turns loading and firing smoothbore muskets at each other until one side has no one left standing. Taking cover was "cowardly", too. So.. so much for that.

 

[TomC]

Everything he did was evasive, not aggressive. .

That's totally bullshit.
Evasive would have started with driving sober. He had a BAC that would put most people in the hospital. Seriously, .29?

Nothing Lyoya did was evasive or defensive. He attacked.
And attacked.

And wound up dead. He lost his battle with society. The one he'd been fighting for some time. The one he was fighting in the car, before he got pulled over.
.29 BAC.
He was a violent perp. He lost that particular fight.
Tom

Hey I don't like the guy either, but I'm not gonna use my imagination to explain away why him getting shot in the back of the head over a misdemeanor is acceptable.

Explain away?

Misdemeanor?

Lyoya fought an armed person and tried to take his weapon. That's a reliable way to become dead. Lyoya picked almost everything here. He's not a victim.

The fact that Lyoya's intended victim was a cop just makes him extra stupid/suicidal.
Tom

 

[Gospel]

Explain away?

Yup, that's what you're doing.

Misdemeanor?

Cite the felony.

Lyoya fought an armed person and tried to take his weapon.

Fought Definition: "take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons. You may want to use a different word.

That's a reliable way to become dead. Lyoya picked almost everything here. He's not a victim.

Sure, when the officer doesn't do his job correctly it's a reliable way to become dead. Lyoya picked resisting arrest. I didn't use the word Victim at any time during this discussion. That's up to law enforcement to determine after examining the evidence.

The fact that Lyoya's intended victim was a cop just makes him extra stupid/suicidal.
Tom

Yes, it is incredibly stupid to resist arrest guilty of a crime or not.

 

[Elixir]

Derec went silent when I asked, so this is for TomC:

Can you provide an example of a cop shooting a black person that wasn’t either justifiable or excusable?
If you can outline what makes it so, that would be great.
This is not a “gotcha” question. I am just trying to get a feel for where that line is in the minds of conservatives. So far, it seems not to exist. YMMV, and I hope it does.

 

[TomC]

Can you provide an example of a cop shooting a black person that wasn’t either justifiable or excusable?
If you can outline what makes it so, that would be great.

Yes. Two immediately spring to mind.

One was Timothy Thomas. 20ish black guy in Cincinnati, shot in the back around 1998. Caused a mini Ferguson. The NAACP did a very interesting investigation of the whole situation in Cincinnati. The results weren't what you might think.

Another was a black guy in Chicago several years ago. Shot in the back in a parking garage. For a couple of weeks, the Chicago PD explained that he'd been shot fleeing arrest. He was a really ugly dude, long history of violent crimes.
Then, some video turned up on the news. A parking garage staff had actual security cam footage from that night. It clearly shows the guy laying face down and handcuffed. A half dozen cops are surrounding him with weapons drawn. One just pulls his trigger and shoots the guy. Shit really hit the fan. The shooter got serious prison time, the other cops got some time for obstruction of justice, I think the Chief of Police had to resign.
All very well deserved, IMHO.

Yeah. I really can. That's just the first two I thought of.
Tom

 

[Elixir]

Thanks TC.
So … two in the last twenty-something years that come to mind. I had forgotten about that IL case.
But I bet I could find twenty white guys unjustly shot by cops in the same period or less.
So it’s basically not a problem involving racism whatsoever. It’s just that it’s hard being a cop and people make mistakes.

Only … I’m not a black person but I met one once … not a BLM protester type or anything, but was deeply concerned for his son (coincidentally also black) coming to driving age. Because he had lost track of how many times he had been stopped by cops, and felt lucky to have never been arrested. He must have been a terrible driver; in over 50 years of driving I was stopped maybe a half dozen times. It does seem though, a common thing for minorities. Better drivers ed curricula definitely called for.

 

[laughing dog]

If that officer was fast enough to realize that "Action is faster than reaction" and shoot to kill in the back of the head, he was fast enough to back off.

Why should police officer have to back off in light of a perp resisting arrest?

The fact you feel the need to ask that question speaks volumes. Resisting arrest is not an automatic death sentence penalty in the USA.

Pet peeve: "This sub-task is no cause for a reaction to the whole"
No drop of water is responsible for the flood.

"Since when is death the penalty for a BLACK PERSON to simply twitch their finger slightly!!!!?one1?"
Ever since that person chose to hold a gun, point it at someone, and position that finger over the trigger, obviously.

"Since when is having a run in the park deserving of EXECUTION BY THE GOVERNMENT"
Ever since that person chose to wield a knife and run directly at a group of children while screaming, "I'll kill them all!!!", obviously.

and, most relevantly, "since when does having a little scuffle with someone create cause to be shot??"
Ever since that person chose to have a scuffle with a clearly identified police officer and attempt to take their weapon(s).

Again, it used to be the case that shooting someone in the back was considered cowardly.

and it is used to be a "war crime" to not line up in a neat row to face your enemy on an open battlefield and take turns loading and firing smoothbore muskets at each other until one side has no one left standing. Taking cover was "cowardly", too. So.. so much for that.

When one has to reach back over 150 years to prove a point, it is pretty pathetic.

But hey, if you want to justify cowardly behavior, that is your privilege.

 

[TomC]

Thanks TC.
So … two in the last twenty-something years that come to mind. I had forgotten about that IL case.
But I bet I could find twenty white guys unjustly shot by cops in the same period or less.
So it’s basically not a problem involving racism whatsoever. It’s just that it’s hard being a cop and people make mistakes.

In another thread you referred to an IIDB member as an extremist who doesn't consider themselves to be one.

I see you, and LD among others, as quite the same.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Another game we can play is how many times a taser can be fired and how many times it was fired and by whom.

Tasers have two operating modes.

As a ranged weapon most are one-shot, a few can be fired twice. However, all that is fired are wires, the electronics stay in the gun and it continues to function as a stun gun even when "empty". It's not quite as effective in this mode because the current doesn't go as far, but it's still considered incapacitating.

 

[Gospel]

Another game we can play is how many times a taser can be fired and how many times it was fired and by whom.

Tasers have two operating modes.

As a ranged weapon most are one-shot, a few can be fired twice. However, all that is fired are wires, the electronics stay in the gun and it continues to function as a stun gun even when "empty". It's not quite as effective in this mode because the current doesn't go as far, but it's still considered incapacitating.

All of this will (or should) be considered during the investigation. Like what model taser was it? How much time between discharges. Could the officer retreat and issue commands while relying on his main firearm ( since the taser may have been out of range shots).

All that plays into proving the officer had reason to believe his life was at risk. Whether you or I like it or not.

 

[Derec]

Derec went silent when I asked, so this is for TomC:

I did not go silent because you asked, but because of time constraints. That's also the reason for the wall of posts that you (at least I think it was you) have bemoaned earlier.

Can you provide an example of a cop shooting a black person that wasn’t either justifiable or excusable?

There have been some. Jordan Edwards, 15, from Texas, comes to mind.

The fact though is that vast majority of police shootings, regardless of race, are justified.
Most have been armed, but unarmed != not a threat, because there have been cases of perps overpowering police officers and taking their guns.

 

[Derec]

Cite the felony.

From the Michigan Legislature:

750.479 Resisting or obstructing officer in discharge of duty; penalty; definitions.
Sec. 479.

(1) A person shall not knowingly and willfully do any of the following:
(a) Assault, batter, wound, obstruct, or endanger a medical examiner, township treasurer, judge, magistrate, probation officer, parole officer, prosecutor, city attorney, court employee, court officer, or other officer or duly authorized person serving or attempting to serve or execute any process, rule, or order made or issued by lawful authority or otherwise acting in the performance of his or her duties.
(b) Assault, batter, wound, obstruct, or endanger an officer enforcing an ordinance, law, rule, order, or resolution of the common council of a city board of trustees, the common council or village council of an incorporated village, or a township board of a township.
(2) Except as provided in subsections (3), (4), and (5), a person who violates this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 2 years or a fine of not more than $2,000.00, or both.
(3) A person who violates this section and by that violation causes a bodily injury requiring medical attention or medical care to an individual described in this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 4 years or a fine of not more than $5,000.00, or both.
(4) A person who violates this section and by that violation causes serious impairment of a body function of an individual described in this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years or a fine of not more than $10,000.00, or both.
(5) A person who violates this section and by that violation causes the death of an individual described in this section is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 20 years or a fine of not more than $20,000.00, or both.
(6) This section does not prohibit an individual from being charged with, convicted of, or punished for any other violation of law that is committed by that individual while violating this section.
(7) The court may order a term of imprisonment for a violation of this section to be served consecutively to any other term of imprisonment imposed for a violation arising out of the same criminal transaction as the violation of this section.
(8) As used in this section:
(a) "Obstruct" includes the use or threatened use of physical interference or force or a knowing failure to comply with a lawful command.
(b) "Serious impairment of a body function" means that term as defined in section 58c of the Michigan vehicle code, 1949 PA 300, MCL 257.58c.

It's not difficult to look this stuff up. In addition he had a felony warrant out for domestic violence (to go with his previous domestic violence conviction).

Fought Definition: "take part in a violent struggle involving the exchange of physical blows or the use of weapons. You may want to use a different word.

Would you prefer assault?
The discussion over the semantics of the word "fight" is largely academic.

Sure, when the officer doesn't do his job correctly it's a reliable way to become dead. Lyoya picked resisting arrest. I didn't use the word

Lyoya repeatedly made bad choices. Choices perhaps not reliable to cause his own death, but certainly to make it many orders of magnitude more likely than if he had complied with the traffic stop and the arrest.

Yes, it is incredibly stupid to resist arrest guilty of a crime or not.

We can agree on that.

 

[Derec]

In 1918 and again in 1945, the UK was awash with guns and ammo of all kinds.

1918 and 1945 means these were held by returning soldiers. Not exactly analogous.

The police never needed to be routinely armed.

US police definitely do need to be routinely armed, given the large number of guns in civilian hands and especially in hands of criminals.

No society since the invention of firearms has ever had no guns whatsoever, and that's not a prerequisite for an effective police force not routinely equipped with guns.

To impose restrictions on guns severe enough so that it would be feasible for US police to not be routinely armed, you would need to get rid of the 2nd Amendment. That's not going to happen anytime soon.

Illegal guns are cheap and easy to obtain in the UK. It's far from being a gun free society.

[Citation needed]

The "disarm the police" digression is fruitless. It is never going to happen, even if you were to convince us here that it would be feasible, which it isn't.

 

[Derec]

Re-read what you just wrote, without the assumption that cops must be armed, and see how little sense it makes without that assumption.

In the US it is a necessary assumption.
Lyoya did not decide to wrestle with a UK bobby. He wrestled an armed US cop.
Maybe he got lost.

Armed police are not a fundamental axiom. You can have police who are not armed.

Who said that it was an axiom?
However, it is the reality in the US and almost every other country.

UK et al are an anomaly here, not the US. And even in the UK it does not apply everywhere.

 

[Gospel]

It's not difficult to look this stuff up. In addition he had a felony warrant out for domestic violence (to go with his previous domestic violence conviction).

Thanks! now that we've cited the felony, what is the legal response to said felony? Hint: It's not shooting the person in the back of the head.