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Non-believers - Ever prayed really hard for God to reveal himself?

Ah. You dont believe in science (QM and relativity being amongst the best proven theories of science) and you are not entirely sure there is no hell...
I said:

"I don't think some of Einstein's theories and quantum physics "computes" - but that doesn't prove it is false"

So I'm saying those things are not false (i.e. I still believe in them) - I just don't understand them. (it doesn't "compute")

About God having perfect love while sending people to hell - I disagree with this but I'm saying that lots of people, including very intelligent people think that makes sense.
 
No, but this is a better question for believers. Surely many of them often wonder why the god they believe in isn't actually around.
See:
http://talkfreethought.org/showthre...-to-reveal-himself&p=5971&viewfull=1#post5971

- - - Updated - - -

About God sometimes intervening but mostly not:

From Futurama's "Godfellas":

GOD
Bender, being God isn't easy, if you do too much, people get dependent. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch, like a safecracker or a pickpocket.

BENDER
Or a guy who burns down the bar for the insurance money.

GOD
Yes, if you make it look like an electrical thing. When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

From "Bruce Almighty":
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0315327/quotes

GOD
Parting your soup is not a miracle Bruce, it's a magic trick. A single mom who's working two jobs, and still finds time to take her son to soccer practice, that's a miracle. A teenager who says "no" to drugs and "yes" to an education, that's a miracle. People want me to do everything for them. What they don't realize is *they* have the power. You want to see a miracle, son? Be the miracle.
 
It is conceivable that demons are trying to undermine people's faith. That's what my sisters believe and their pastor preaches it. C. S. Lewis's "The Screwtape Letters" is based on that idea. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Screwtape_Letters

Also there is the story of Job where Satan asked God if he could make Job suffer to see how strong Job's faith was.

Also this was written by King David: (apparently)

http://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/10.htm
"Why, Lord, do you stand far off? Why do you hide yourself in times of trouble?"

http://biblehub.com/niv/psalms/22.htm
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from my cries of anguish?
My God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, but I find no rest."

So if you actually look at the Bible, this kind of behavior is fairly normal for God.....
It's even more normal for human minds. Oh, you got some demons all right. They just don't exist outside of your head. We all have them. It's just a little cognitive twisty that makes us want to create something outside of ourselves to explain our suffering, confusion, and uncertainty.

Magical thinking has lost its evolutionary usefulness. Get over it. There's better, more humane and sane things you can do with those neurons.
 
I said:

"I don't think some of Einstein's theories and quantum physics "computes" - but that doesn't prove it is false"

So I'm saying those things are not false (i.e. I still believe in them) - I just don't understand them. (it doesn't "compute")

No you werent, you actually said that eInsteins theories doesnt compute, not that you fail to make compute. But I accept your explanation.


About a lot of intelligent people believing in hell: a lot of intelligent people gas been seriously wrong before. Facts are no matter of democracy.
 
If you don't think the conclusion is perhaps mistaken then what is your major problem with the conclusion?
My problem is the way you achieved the conclusion. You're afraid of Hell, but you're absolutely ignorant of any of the alternatives. That's a poor method to conme to any conclusion.
I have heard of Poseidon and read a bit about him and saw a character based on him in a movie. Do you expect me to know everything about Poseidon?
If you're going to say 'disbelieve in Poseidon has no major consequences,' i would expect you to be able to say how you came to that conclusion.
I'd expect you to know the consequences of any religion you're going to dismiss by hand-waving away.
You're nowhere near well-enough educated to support your assessment of the risks.
I don't think it matters how much I know about Poseidon.... what matters is whether my conclusion is correct.
But even if your conclusion is correct, the way you got to it, you're only correct by coincidence. You're trusting your soul (should one exist) to a rather biased and self-serving analysis.
If you think my conclusion is incorrect then you ARE saying that maybe the lack of belief in Poseidon is a threat.
I think it's correct. But only because you got lucky, not because you actually knew what the hell you were talking about.
So i have to ask how you decided to ignore the consequences of every other afterlife you're not interested in.
Let's say I claimed that nothing can travel faster than the speed of light (though I know of some people who would disagree). Would you object to me stating that? After all I haven't done any experiments or learnt the math behind that. I want to know.
Like the Cheetah, i think you would need to phrase it better to show that you are actually understanding it, and not simply parroting a phrase you don't understand fully.
Yes after I posted that I realised I was talking about land speed. BTW by pointing that out you demonstrated how easy it is to disprove me - just show one counter-example.
But my intention wasnot to disprove you. My goal was to point out that you don't know shit about afterlives other than the one you were raised with, a couple of stories, and maybe Clash of the Titans.
On the other hand for me to prove my statement I would have had to investigate every animal.
No. you can just find references of people who have done the research, just be more careful about how you state it, to show you understand their reference. 'fastest animal' doesn't begin to say 'fastest at what?' Travel? Reproduction? Investment gains? Healing?
Either way, without SOMEONE doing the research, your statement's pretty much worthless.
You see I only thought about a few animals and decided that they weren't faster than a cheetah. I had considered birds but assumed that maybe they weren't faster than a cheetah.
And, wow, gosh, Wiki could have fixed that for you.
The burden is STILL on you to support your statements.
The burden is not on your critics to support or disprove your statements.
If you ever defend your thesis formally, the guys at the desks CAN ask: How do you konw this to be true? without being called upon to produce countering evidence.
The way you got to your conclusions is at least as important as your conclusions.
I guess I could have done proper research and looked up the speeds for birds. So you're saying I should investigate 3000+ religions or gods or whatever.... but similar to the cheetah example it is far easier for you to just provide ONE counter-example
Why should i give a fuck what's easier for YOU?
YOu're the one making the claim. If you can't be arsed to make it a decent claim, with support, then it's just going to be 'this thing excreationist said' that can be dismissed as easily as most of our Senate.
If you don't know of any counter-example, what is your objection?
Your ill-prepared to make the claims you have made. I simply asked 'how do you know' and your reaction has taken this thread way off course. Which is fine by me. But if you had any sort of goal with this thread? compare where you expected to go with where you went. And see just how much of it could have been avoided if you had come up with a reference or the result of some time spent in reasearch.
You're just saying maybe I'm wrong.
No. I'm saying there's no reason to think you're right.
But unless you can provide some evidence then your words aren't very helpful.
Awwww. The 'EVIDENCE' I'm showing you is that you were unprepared for the statement about Poseidon. You're further unprepared for any questions about Japanese gods, Roman gods, Norse gods, Australian gods, Allah... That's your problem.
It's like you saying "maybe you're wrong about the cheetah" and not giving an example of a faster animal. It is just annoying.
Okay.
Then again, when you make claims that there's hardly any consequence to ignoring Poseidon, when you clearly don't know what consequences there are, that's a little bit annoying.
When you try to defend your ignorance because actually being able to answer the question would be hard, and it would take time.... That's really annoying.
If you don't think I'm wrong then what is your problem with that statement? If my statement is true then it means that Poseidon doesn't send nonbelievers to hell.
If your statement about Poseidon is true, then you got lucky. It's not a statement made from knowledge.
Are you sure you can get lucky 3000+ more times?
 
Ok.... well over the years I've learnt about different religions.
From more movies?
I think in Tibetan Buddhism
Reference, please.
Muslims believe in many levels of hell I think well-behaved non-believers aren't punished very severely.
Reference, please.
Anyway one of the last times I went there I was talking to a guy studying theology and he said that Christianity is the only religion which believes that all people are inherently bad and deserve to go to hell
Is that the same as saying that only Christainity has hell? And is your reference: this guy i met that claims he studies?
. It is only a belief in Jesus that saves them from hell. He has been studying theology a lot and should be knowledgeable about that.
Fine, what is his name? His degree? Does he have an actual answer to the question you've been ducking?
I've also watched a Christian video
I've seen Christain videos. They're usually big on the message, low on the support. Did they offer a bibliography in the end credits?
They said that people who believe that there are many paths to Heaven are wrong - even though many Christians believe that.
Reference, please.
I have discussed this type of thing a few times and no-one has ever said that there are other religions that believe all non-believers go to hell.
Have you discussed it with someone who has a degree in comparative theology?
So basically as far as I know only a few religions believe in hell.
Well, that's the point. You're going by 'as far as i know' and a few references that may not stand up to scrutiny and don't really directly answer the question.
In many of them it isn't eternal. As far as I know Christianity is the only religion that says that ALL people deserve to go to hell.
Which is not the same as saying that Christainity is the only religion that has eternal torment.
I haven't come across anyone else saying that there are other religions that also believe that everyone deserves eternal punishment.
You're kinda shifting, here. Backing down from 'only Christainity has a hell' to 'only Christainity says we all deserve Hell.'
Do you think there are other religions that believe that EVERYONE deserves eternal punishment.
Not a question i'm interested in. It's not the question that's spun you into such a tizzy.
 
I'm jumping in late to this discussion, so apologies for ignoring everything that's been said thus far.

I never really prayed for God to reveal himself. When I was younger and convinced that God existed, I used to pray that God would present me with proof that I wasn't going to hell. That's the irony. I believed in God, and with that belief came my belief in hell. I never had any proof that I was forgiven of my sins. I never had any any assurance of salvation.

I didn't stop believing in God. I stopped believing in hell. After that, I stopped caring about God, since his threats of eternal damnation were not longer effective.
 
BTW there aren't many consequences about whether you are correct in your belief about whether Poseidon exists or not. On the other hand there is a slight (non-zero) possibility that you will suffer eternally in hell if you are incorrect about whether the Christian God exists.

I'm not actually convinced that "suffer eternally in hell" is really a part of Christianity. Biblical analyses like this make some interesting points.
 
I'm not actually convinced that "suffer eternally in hell" is really a part of Christianity. Biblical analyses like this make some interesting points.

Well, if modern Christians believe it then it really is part of Christianity, regardless of what the Bible may or may not say about it. It's the same as how gender equality and opposition to slavery and Christian positions despite those being directly in conflict with what the Bible says on the matters.
 
You can only serve one God. (well at least according to God http://biblehub.com/exodus/34-14.htm ).
But that verse is only taken seriously be those who already believe the Bible is the word of God and that passages like that are true.

If you are already a believer, then what's the point of this thread?

If you aren't already a believer, then why are basis an argument on religious scripture you don't believe in?
 
Well, if modern Christians believe it then it really is part of Christianity, regardless of what the Bible may or may not say about it. It's the same as how gender equality and opposition to slavery and Christian positions despite those being directly in conflict with what the Bible says on the matters.

Sure, that's certainly one way of defining the word "Christianity". I'd say that Christianity is a vast umbrella of often mutually-exclusive beliefs encompassing both scripture and whatever the latest fashion is, since it is after all all just make believe.

But if the so-called "Christian God" did exist, then I think for it to be meaningful to even call this entity the "Christian God", it would have to actually correspond to some Christian conception; somebody's beliefs about it would have to actually be correct. The question of the Christian God's policy with regards to the fate of people after death would have to be a truth-apt question. So within the vast umbrella that is Christianity, there are a variety of beliefs concerning the answer to that question, and a method would be needed to distinguish the incorrect answers from the correct one.

If one maintains that scriptural support for a given answer is no more valid as evidence of the Christian God's policies than the beliefs of a modern Christian (which could be based upon ignorance/misinterpretation of scripture, random speculation, clinical delusion, rationalization, or any other sorts of biases and errors in reasoning), then that seems equivalent to a position of agnosticism with regards to the question(or a position that each mutually-exclusive concept which happens to go by the name "the Christian God" is to be treated as its own separate option in the context of the wager), and undermines the practice of restricting the field of options in the wager to merely those religions which already exist.

The fact that some person or group of people actually believes a given uninformed/biased/speculative idea doesn't seem to imbue it with any more epistemic justification than all the ideas that nobody actually believes, or the ideas that nobody has considered yet. This widens the field of options to be considered in pascal's wager to an infinite degree, rendering the wager unwinnable, since it would include not just the gods of human religion, but also the gods of every fictional religion and every thought experiment that anybody could possibly come up with. But excreationist for some reason wants to exclude Scientology from the wager, so I'm not sure he'd agree to that.
 
The fact that some person or group of people actually believes a given uninformed/biased/speculative idea doesn't seem to imbue it with any more epistemic justification than all the ideas that nobody actually believes, or the ideas that nobody has considered yet. This widens the field of options to be considered in pascal's wager to an infinite degree, rendering the wager unwinnable, since it would include not just the gods of human religion, but also the gods of every fictional religion and every thought experiment that anybody could possibly come up with. But excreationist for some reason wants to exclude Scientology from the wager, so I'm not sure he'd agree to that.

What he said. I was going to introduce my new religion, in which Sucky the Super-dog condemns to eternal torment not only those who regard Pascal's Wager as a valid argument, but also their friends, relatives, and descendants till the end of time. But Unbeatable has beaten me to it, so to speak.
 
"So basically as far as I know only a few religions believe in hell."

....not the same as saying that Christainity is the only religion that has eternal torment...

....Backing down from 'only Christainity has a hell' to 'only Christainity says we all deserve Hell.'...

I NEVER said "only Christainity has a hell" or "Christainity is the only religion that has eternal torment".

....You're going by 'as far as i know' and a few references that may not stand up to scrutiny...

This thread is about people's experiences and opinions. I never claimed that I would convince people that people should try and pray to God.

My "evidence" comes from word of mouth, movies, some readings. This is not a formal debate where I have to "prove" things. You might think it is but sorry to disappoint you but that's not what I intended in this thread.

To turn it back to you, where is your PROOF that I said those two things about hell I just quoted you on saying?
 
....But excreationist for some reason wants to exclude Scientology from the wager, so I'm not sure he'd agree to that.
As far as I'm aware, Scientologists don't believe that all non-believers suffer eternally... apparently they believe in reincarnation - in that case I thought they'd only be aware of one lifetime of suffering at a time. (unless they can remember previous lifetimes) As far as I'm aware the suffering in Scientology isn't as severe as that in Christianity.
 
"You can only serve one God. (well at least according to God http://biblehub.com/exodus/34-14.htm )."

But that verse is only taken seriously be those who already believe the Bible is the word of God and that passages like that are true.

If you are already a believer, then what's the point of this thread?

If you aren't already a believer, then why are basis an argument on religious scripture you don't believe in?
If you're considering to be a believer then the Bible tells you about God.
 
Well large number of theologians and Christians can accept it.
BTW in this video the pastor is saying eternal damnation makes God great and glorious:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzynfCuJRBY

I don't think some of Einstein's theories and quantum physics "computes" - but that doesn't prove it is false. (on the other hand I don't really believe in hell personally)


Well lots of Christians believe in eternal damnation but think God has a perfect love for us.

None of which changes how believable it is for me by one jot or tittle. I know lots of folks who believe stuff that I find them idiotic to believe. I know they believe it. In many cases, I know _how_ they believe it. And I can't believe they are so gullible. Their "belief" is not convincing. Think how many kids believe in the tooth fairy. I mean, seriously. It doesn't make the tooth fairy one iota more believable to me.

And sorry, I can't watch videos. My belief that I should have high speed internet has nevertheless failed to manifest as actual high speed internet.

- - - Updated - - -

I said:

"I don't think some of Einstein's theories and quantum physics "computes" - but that doesn't prove it is false"

So I'm saying those things are not false (i.e. I still believe in them) - I just don't understand them. (it doesn't "compute")

About God having perfect love while sending people to hell - I disagree with this but I'm saying that lots of people, including very intelligent people think that makes sense.

Einsteins stuff does make sense to me. Hell stuff does not. It contradicts itself. I cannot force myself to believe it.
 
"If you're considering to be a believer then the Bible tells you about God."
Circular...
Whether God exists or not, the Bible tells you about him. In the same way whether Harry Potter exists or not, the books tell you about him.
 
"If you're considering to be a believer then the Bible tells you about God."

Whether God exists or not, the Bible tells you about him. In the same way whether Harry Potter exists or not, the books tell you about him.
This is at the heart of what I think is so insane about religious belief. Anything you or I might call God must be experienced. Anything told to you about anything is a story. A story can never be the experience. Yet religious believers cling to a story, and fight about a story, and try to get others to cling to the story, as if a story could ever be your experience of anything. No one else can possibly create an experience in you that you yourself could subjectively articulate as divine. Do you understand this?

It's fucking insane, and this bypassing of experience for ideology enables the most inhumane of actions and words based in belief.
 
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