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Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

You might be right; but if you are, it is good luck, not good judgement.
Yes I think I am. It's pretty obvious when the fake "evidence" against the rebels is debunked so quickly.
Pretty clear that the US is hiding something too, and Kiev

I know you think you are. You have absolutely no justification for thinking that though.

Highlighted above is a perfect example of why - you appear to be a master of the art of ignoring things that don't suit you. Reality, sadly, doesn't care what suits you.
 
Russian media is one of the least free in the world; most of it is state-owned, independent media is routinely silenced or pressured, and the number of journalists killed for the work they do without consequences for the murder puts it among the very top of the most dangerous countries for journalists in the world with only Iraq and Algeria more dangerous. The media in Russia is essentially the Russian version of Fox News, bolstered by the fact it has no competition. It's little wonder then that the people who make Russian media their primary source of news, like Barbos, are going to act like this.


I agree for the most part, except that comparing Russian media to Fox News is a bit unfair. Compared to Russian media, Fox News is indeed "fair and balanced."


It is worth noting that we're dealing with a country that has a long tradition of officially repressing any information which counters the narrative coming out of the Kremlin. At the moment, Fox News is pretty much dead set on opposing any information which comes from the White House. There is nothing remotely comparable in Russia.
 
Do you have the mean to confirm the authenticity of the claim you kept rehashing which you now claim to be sourced from "russian news" in "russian news outlet".

Nonsense is what you are being fed by Western news media.
Do you have any evidence to support any assumption that the article I linked to while quoting specific comments made by members of the OSCE monitors based on their observations on location is "nonsense fed by the Western media". Do you realize that CNN did have footage of the interview of those members and they were directly communicating their observations.

So, unless you will now claim that these OSCE monitors were lying about their observations (which again contradict the claims made by your alleged russian sources), what is your explanation? I directly saw and listened to those interviews mentioned in the article I submitted.

I am also getting tired of your tirades regarding the "Western news media" since I doubt that you are so fluent in all the foreign languages represented within Western nations that you actually can comprehend all the discussions and opinions held in televised debates/interviews in all those Western nations.

Try to address the specific of whether the observations of the OSCE monitors can be trusted without your usual mantra of "being fed by the Western news media".
I adressed all the specifics already.
 
I am also getting tired of your tirades regarding the "Western news media" since I doubt that you are so fluent in all the foreign languages represented within Western nations that you actually can comprehend all the discussions and opinions held in televised debates/interviews in all those Western nations.

Try to address the specific of whether the observations of the OSCE monitors can be trusted without your usual mantra of "being fed by the Western news media".

Russian media is one of the least free in the world; most of it is state-owned, independent media is routinely silenced or pressured, and the number of journalists killed for the work they do without consequences for the murder puts it among the very top of the most dangerous countries for journalists in the world with only Iraq and Algeria more dangerous. The media in Russia is essentially the Russian version of Fox News, bolstered by the fact it has no competition. It's little wonder then that the people who make Russian media their primary source of news, like Barbos, are going to act like this.

It's actually putting Putin into a tough situation (though that's mostly his own fault); he can't afford to back down and properly cooperate with the west because to do so would be a complete break with the narrative the Russians have been spoonfeeding their public; and it'd piss off the nationalists responsible for his surge in popularity and completely shatter his credibility. It's like if in an alternate reality, the republicans were in the presidency and were only there because they owned most of the media and had been using that ownership to promote the most radical elements of teaparty; only to find out that having your base be made up by hordes of semi-psychotic ultranationalists who've swallowed the lies you've told them about the country's supposed exceptionalism could turn out to be a problem when you're stuck in an international crisis that requires you to not act like a bond villain.
I also have to wonder about investigative journalism/reporting in Russia. Would there ever be the equivalent in Russia of the vital role investigative reporters like Bernstein and Woodward played in uncovering Watergate? Is there an equivalent to the Freedom of Information Act ?
 
Yes I think I am. It's pretty obvious when the fake "evidence" against the rebels is debunked so quickly.
Pretty clear that the US is hiding something too, and Kiev

I know you think you are. You have absolutely no justification for thinking that though.

Highlighted above is a perfect example of why - you appear to be a master of the art of ignoring things that don't suit you. Reality, sadly, doesn't care what suits you.
Yes, but russia haters do that too, and do that much better.
 
i was hoping by now the Americanos would have released their photographs of the live incident or at least advised the Russians that they have them

Maybe they have and Putin's not saying.
 
I also have to wonder about investigative journalism/reporting in Russia. Would there ever be the equivalent in Russia of the vital role investigative reporters like Bernstein and Woodward played in uncovering Watergate? Is there an equivalent to the Freedom of Information Act ?
Investigative journalism is dead in US
Lack of "real" journalism in Russa has very little relation to problem at hand.
In Russia they have bad roads too, does not change the facts about this particular disaster.
This logic is very typical - "Russians are bad therefore they did it"
 
i was hoping by now the Americanos would have released their photographs of the live incident or at least advised the Russians that they have them

Maybe they have and Putin's not saying.
Maybe as russians have said Americans have their intelligence which confirms what russians are saying?
 
Lack of "real" journalism in Russa has very little relation to problem at hand.
In Russia they have bad roads too, does not change the facts about this particular disaster.

You (and your comrade chopra) have made a good chunk of this thread about the shortcomings of the "western media."

Yet you (unlike your comrade) seem to grasp the fact that the Russian media is no better. State controlled, heavily censored, filled with propaganda, and yet you insist that when it comes to this particular disaster, we should defer to Russian media by default and reject everything from any media outlets outside of Russia.

How is this logical?

You want us to believe uncritically everything which official Russian state media says, and if "western media" contradicts it, there must be a conspiracy afoot to discredit Putin.


How does this make sense?


Lack of "real" journalism in Russia has everything to do with this little problem at hand. There is absolutely no reason to trust Russian state media, yet you are saying "trust them implicitly."
 
Lack of "real" journalism in Russa has very little relation to problem at hand.
In Russia they have bad roads too, does not change the facts about this particular disaster.

You (and your comrade chopra) have made a good chunk of this thread about the shortcomings of the "western media."

Yet you (unlike your comrade) seem to grasp the fact that the Russian media is no better. State controlled, heavily censored, filled with propaganda, and yet you insist that when it comes to this particular disaster, we should defer to Russian media by default and reject everything from any media outlets outside of Russia.

How is this logical?

You want us to believe uncritically everything which official Russian state media says, and if "western media" contradicts it, there must be a conspiracy afoot to discredit Putin.


How does this make sense?


Lack of "real" journalism in Russia has everything to do with this little problem at hand. There is absolutely no reason to trust Russian state media, yet you are saying "trust them implicitly."
Russian media is different, that's true. Does not make it worse than what is currently going on in the Wesern Media.
I have said before, I was very disappointed in western media, I expected better than that from them.
 
You (and your comrade chopra) have made a good chunk of this thread about the shortcomings of the "western media."

Yet you (unlike your comrade) seem to grasp the fact that the Russian media is no better. State controlled, heavily censored, filled with propaganda, and yet you insist that when it comes to this particular disaster, we should defer to Russian media by default and reject everything from any media outlets outside of Russia.

How is this logical?

You want us to believe uncritically everything which official Russian state media says, and if "western media" contradicts it, there must be a conspiracy afoot to discredit Putin.


How does this make sense?


Lack of "real" journalism in Russia has everything to do with this little problem at hand. There is absolutely no reason to trust Russian state media, yet you are saying "trust them implicitly."
Russian media is different, that's true. Does not make it worse than what is currently going on in the Wesern Media.
I have said before, I was very disappointed in western media, I expected better than that from them.

You're doing it again.


Implying that because "western media" has some problems, we should reject everything they say out of hand, but claiming that Russian media is "different" and therefore should be accepted without reservation.
 
Meanwhile, evil russian terrorists transferred black boxes to Malaysian authorities.

- - - Updated - - -

Russian media is different, that's true. Does not make it worse than what is currently going on in the Wesern Media.
I have said before, I was very disappointed in western media, I expected better than that from them.

You're doing it again.


Implying that because "western media" has some problems, we should reject everything they say out of hand, but claiming that Russian media is "different" and therefore should be accepted without reservation.
Really, so Westen Media corrected crap they were saying about Odessa massacre?
Really?
 
And we're deflecting again.

Looks like someone doesn't want to talk about the Russian media.
 
The circumstantial evidence pointing to Kievs involvement is growing by the day.

1. An apparently faked youtube video.
2. Fake photos purporting to be a BUK launcher in rebel held territory.
3. Eyewitness reports of Military jets near or accompanying the doomed airliner.
4. Video shots of these planes from the Rostov military centre so the Russians claim.
5. Photos of the Ukranians deploying BUK launchers in South eastern Ukraine.

The Russians are starting to release this evidence, into the public eye where it can be examined.

On the the hand, the USA is claiming to have evidence yet is releasing none. They are liars IMO.
Russia Says Has Photos Of Ukraine Deploying BUK Missiles In East, Radar Proof Of Warplanes In MH17 Vicinity

RUSSIA SAYS U.S. SATELLITE FLEW OVER MH17 AT TIME IT WAS DOWNED... which would provide all the proof needed to show who is responsible - so why hasn't the US explained this or shown it?
RUSSIA ASKS U.S. FOR EVIDENCE ROCKET FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
RUSSIA: NO U.S. PROOF THAT MISSILE FIRED FROM REBEL-HELD AREA
DEFENCE MINISTRY SAYS RUSSIA DID NOT DELIVER ANY SA-11 BUK MISSILE SYSTEMS TO SEPARATISTS IN EASTERN UKRAINE "OR ANY OTHER WEAPONS"

You don't think we are going to provide the data from the satellite, do you? We certainly don't want to show our enemies exactly how sensitive the launch detection birds are!

It's also come to light that at least two countries intercepted the call reporting the shoot-down.
 
i was hoping by now the Americanos would have released their photographs of the live incident or at least advised the Russians that they have them

Maybe they have and Putin's not saying.

Photos? Launch detection birds don't take pictures. They're looking for the thermal signature of a rocket, they merely report location and intensity. Obviously they are sensitive enough to see a SAM at least under some conditions. (They're up there to see ballistic missile launches.)
 
It's hard to take anything the American government says without bursting into laughter (despite the tragedy)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...7bc2c4-0ff8-11e4-9285-4243a40ddc97_story.html

Citing an “enormous amount of evidence,” Secretary of State John F. Kerry accused Russia of providing SA-11 antiaircraft missiles to the pro-Russian rebels and training them how to fire the advanced weapons. He also said U.S. intelligence agencies “saw the launch” of a missile from rebel-held territory in eastern Ukraine and recorded its trajectory at the moment the passenger plane vanished from radar.
An "enormous amount of evidence". Funny how , yet again, they aren't releasing it.

Meanwhile, in Kiev, the U.S. Embassy said American intelligence analysts had confirmed the authenticity of recorded conversations in which rebel leaders bragged about shooting down what they thought was a Ukrainian military transport plane moments after the Malaysian jetliner was blown apart. The Ukrainian government had previously aired the audio excerpts, but the U.S. statement vouching for their reliability buttressed the charges against the rebels.
How can anyone not burst into fits of laughter at this pathetic charade? (despite the appalling loss of innocent life)

The video has more holes in it that a sieve.
 
And we're deflecting again.

Looks like someone doesn't want to talk about the Russian media.

Yes, you are deflecting.
Russian media is not the problem here. In fact you don't read much of it to judge.
And what I recently parroted has nothing to do with russian media. It was an official presentation from russian military with a bunch questions to Ukrainian side.
 
And what I recently parroted has nothing to do with russian media. .


So you freely admit to parroting Russian media, but claim it has nothing to do with Russian media.
 
And we're deflecting again.

Looks like someone doesn't want to talk about the Russian media.

Yes, you are deflecting.
Russian media is not the problem here. In fact you don't read enough of it to judge.
And what I recently parroted has nothing to do with russian media. It was an official presentation from russian military with a bunch questions to the Ukrainian side. And now Churkin parroted it in UN.
In case you don't who Churkin is, he is a russian guy in UN.
So, CIA and Ukrainians have some explaining or refuting to do.
 
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