Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

[Loren Pechtel]

You are not in any position to say that though, as you are getting your information from the internet. Unless you know the precise movements of the rebels, and whether the maps you download bear much semblance to reality at all points
What I am saying is that these are the kinds of questions that need to asked, and in time people who are actually competent to answer them will.
Whether the guy who wrote that blog is right or wrong we don't know. I think you'll happily admit you're not competent to answer these kinds of questions though.
What we can say is that he is on the right track as far as asking the right questions goes.

Your arguments sound like big tobacco denying the dangers of smoking.

 

[barbos]

But right now what we have is
1.Several lines of "fake" evidence trying to point to the rebels.
2.The USA claiming to have evidence against the rebels but not releasing it
3.The Ukrainians in Kiev claiming to have evidence against the rebels but not releasing it.
4.Loads of people such as the ones in this thread claiming that the rebels did it, but having Zero evidence.

None of this points to the rebels, yet apparently we know they did it, without having to rely on evidence.

Fake? Just because they say things you don't like doesn't make them fake. Here's a summary of what we have:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ee_1405625074

Pentagon said video was fake. In fact they complained that Ukrainian government was collecting garbage from the internet without any kind of check

 

[barbos]

Bottom line: Pentagon says they have nothing linking Russia to this disaster.

 

[Jayjay]

The point is that alleged evidence for two incompatible theories for what happened don't reinforce each other. If anything, it makes the source of said evidence suspect.

What are you trying to say?
You asked why the Ukranians would shoot the plane using a BUK, but we don't know for sure if that even happened.

What I am trying to say is that your list, which included following items:

3. Eyewitness reports of Military jets near or accompanying the doomed airliner.
4. Video shots of these planes from the Rostov military centre so the Russians claim.
5. Photos of the Ukranians deploying BUK launchers in South eastern Ukraine.

Is not actually an example of evidence growing, because item (3) is evidence for a completely different scenario than items (4) and (5). For sake of the argument, let's say there is some merit in the theory that the plane was shot down by Ukrainian fighters. If that is the case, then how is photos of Ukrainians deplying BUK launchers evidence for it? And if the plane was shot down by a BUK, then how are alleged eyewitness reports and Russian videos (which I have not seen) of Ukrainian fighter planes evidence for it? Either way, some of the evidence must be wrong. And if some of it is wrong, then it raises doubts about other evidence coming from the same source.

But right now what we have is
1.Several lines of "fake" evidence trying to point to the rebels.
2.The USA claiming to have evidence against the rebels but not releasing it
3.The Ukrainians in Kiev claiming to have evidence against the rebels but not releasing it.
4.Loads of people such as the ones in this thread claiming that the rebels did it, but having Zero evidence.

None of this points to the rebels, yet apparently we know they did it, without having to rely on evidence.

Actually USA did release their evidence yesterday, possibly to counter a similar move by Russia.

 

[dystopian]

Pentagon said video was fake. In fact they complained that Ukrainian government was collecting garbage from the internet without any kind of check

When and where have they said this? The pentagon is not the sort of institution that would use language like `they´re collecting garbage´. Even if they did say this, that´s just in reference to a single video which the Russians keep trouting out as if it´s some sort of smoking gun regarding forgery... completely forgetting that we have different videos that can NOT be demonstrated to be fake and do in fact appear to check out.

 

[Jayjay]

Bottom line: Pentagon says they have nothing linking Russia to this disaster.

That's just Pentagon being overtly cautious. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and if the home-grown rebels are bumbling fools as everyone claims, I find it hard to believe that Russia would let them operate weapons like BUK independently.

 

[barbos]

Jayjay, there is evidence that ukrainians are a bit lying.
At the moment nobody seriously suggesting that Su-25 shot the plane but it was there and Ukrainians lied when they say nothing was there.
Su-25 is not a fighter, it is low altitude ground attack plane. Even if it's possible to shoot airliner from Su-25 it would still be possible to differentiate whatever Su-25 can use and Buk.

What was it doing there, is just one of the questions, another one is why Ukrainians had Buk Radars ON and why they were moving them around before and more importantly after the crash. Why do they even have them in the area? what for?
Waiting for russian plane sneaking in to shoot it? That would be pretty stupid with all these civilian planes from Europe going to Asia.

 

[dystopian]

Nope, that's how they conduct a search.

Tthat is about the dumbest fucking thing I´ve ever heard you say, and that´s saying a lot. If that´s how they conduct a search then I shudder to think at how they perform other tasks. Maybe use chainsaws while cooking dinner? Do they dismantle their homes when cleaning spilled milk too? What the fuck is wrong with you that you actually think you provided a reply to Loren/me that is not batshit fucktarded?

And everyone knows commercial airliner simply can not carry weapons.
Again, they forgot to ask Loren Pechtel.

Who the fuck is stupid or paranoid enough to look at the wreckage of a commercial airliner with hundreds of bodies strewn around that obviously belong to civilians and think ´Gee, maybe there´s weapons in there we can use´. More to the point, who the fuck is stupid enough to think that anyone will believe it to be even remotely plausible that that´s what they were doing, instead of you know... the much more reasonable explanation that they were trying to hide what they did.

Hey, if I ever ram and fuck up your car or what not, don´t complain if I then take a powersaw to it and fuck it up some more. You could have weapons hidden in there or something, after all. Nope, not messing up your stuff out of spite or hiding that spot of blue paint that my car left behind on your rear bumper.

 

[barbos]

Bottom line: Pentagon says they have nothing linking Russia to this disaster.

That's just Pentagon being overtly cautious. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and if the home-grown rebels are bumbling fools as everyone claims, I find it hard to believe that Russia would let them operate weapons like BUK independently.

What can Russia do?
You got this ridiculous idea that separatists would ask Russia's permission to use the Buk they captured.
Russia does not control rebels, and certainly did not give them weapons.

 

[Harry Bosch]

What can Russia do? You got this ridiculous idea that separatists would ask Russia's permission to use the Buk they captured. Russia does not control rebels, and certainly did not give them weapons.

Jesus Christ! I've been on the FRdB Forum for 10 years, and this is by far the most maddening thread! It would be funny if not for the fact that so many innocents died.

 

[Jayjay]

So which ones are debunked, and which ones aren't, and for those that are debunked, where is the exact line of reasoning that debunks them?

You can find some stuff if you follow the links here

Once some of the photos/videos on that daily mail article are debunked or even shown to be suspect it curious that anyone would believe any of them with out having some confirmation.

Your debunking itself seems to have been debunked:

Since then, there has been a massive effort online to geolocate the billboard/Buk video. And soon enough, the Kremlin troll brigade came up with a counter-narrative which they injected into thousands of web site discussions, social media, news comments, and so on, as we reported this weekend.

They claimed that in fact the billboard/Buk scene was in Krasnoarmeysk, and the proof of that was the ad on the billboard, which is for the Bogdan auto dealer which has a showroom at No. 34 Dnepropetrovskaya St. in Krasnoarmeysk. To be sure, there is a Bogdan showroom in Krasnoarmeysk, but that address is in fact not visible on the billboard in the video; it’s covered by trees. The Russian Defense Ministry briefing interpolates this address in its notation to the screenshot of the video, but in fact it’s not visible at all in the video — it’s speculation. The Russian state media and legions of social media posters have also claimed that the vantage point of the videographer looked on to a shopping mall where there was a StroiDom store.

There were a number of things wrong with the claim that the scene was in Krasnoarmeysk:

1. Krasnoarmeysk has power lines but no trolleybus system; Krasnodon has a trolleybus system; the billboard/Buk video clearly shows trolleybus lines.
2. The Bogdan dealerships are all over Ukraine, and can be found also in Lugansk, 45 minutes’ drive from Krasnodon, where a billboard might be reasonably placed.
3. The StroiDom in Krasnoarmeysk is indeed listed at No. 49 Gorky Street, but the building doesn’t match the scene in the video.

 

[dystopian]

What can Russia do? You got this ridiculous idea that separatists would ask Russia's permission to use the Buk they captured. Russia does not control rebels, and certainly did not give them weapons.

Jesus Christ! I've been on the FRdB Forum for 10 years, and this is by far the most maddening thread! It would be funny if not for the fact that so many innocents died.

I know, no thread in the history of this forum or any other has inspired such murderous rage in me. It isn´t just the blatant insult to our collective humanity the way some people so passionately defend a bunch of murderers, but the way in which they do it. Some of these arguments seriously make those from creationists look halfway clever and honest.

 

[barbos]

Commercial passenger airplanes do on occasion transport weapons. That's a fact.
They carry money too, they can carry bullet-proof vests , they carry all kind of shit in their cargo section
The only limit is dangerous stuff like something flammable.
You don't need to be paranoid to suspect Ukrainians and CIA to use civilian plane to carry their shit
Even if does not carry usable stuff, it can carry people with identities which can be found interesting - like CIA.
Now, separatists simply told you what they were doing over the phone.
I find it mind boggling and retarded to question and give them advice how to do their job.

 

[barbos]

What can Russia do? You got this ridiculous idea that separatists would ask Russia's permission to use the Buk they captured. Russia does not control rebels, and certainly did not give them weapons.

Jesus Christ! I've been on the FRdB Forum for 10 years, and this is by far the most maddening thread! It would be funny if not for the fact that so many innocents died.

Funnier than Kerry saying "It's not how we do business in 21st century invading countries under false pretenses"?
Not sure I got quote exactly but meaning should be fine.
You are exaggerating ability of Russia in all of this.

 

[Jayjay]

bilby,
According to russian military intelligence at least one Ukrainian Buk was in the range.

How do you know it was Ukrainian? They are saying that one BUK was in range, but I am not convinced as to who it belonged to. Russia says that it was near the rebel controlled area, but is it not possible that the rebels/Russians deliberately parked their BUK somewhere where they might have plausible deniability in case someone sees it?

 

[barbos]

bilby,
According to russian military intelligence at least one Ukrainian Buk was in the range.

How do you know it was Ukrainian? They are saying that one BUK was in range, but I am not convinced as to who it belonged to. Russia says that it was near the rebel controlled area, but is it not possible that the rebels/Russians deliberately parked their BUK somewhere where they might have plausible deniability in case someone sees it?

Don't know enough details to say if it would be possible.
I can tell you I don't believe in deliberate shooting on anyone's part.
it was a mistake regardless who shot it.
Why would ukrainians shoot anything? As I previously theorized they could have been under assumption that russian jets were visiting the area. They had in fact claimed/complained about russian planes entering their space just prior to this disaster. So it's totally possible that some of the clowns who runs this show decided to hunt for russian jets. Before you say it would be stupid, yes, it would but these people ARE stupid.

Also if I had to theorize on "Russia did that" theory then I would say it would be highly unlikely that they would not know that civilian planes were flying there, russians would most certainly do the shooting themselves, they would move Buk in place without it being detected from space and it would be fully operational system which is able to identify targets.
Buk depending on version and configuration has different abilities.
In worst case when you have just one vehilcle shown on all these videos you don't have much information about the target. You need a vehicle with better radar and possibly command vehicle I think. And also newer versions are much better too.

If russians actually did that then it's brilliantly executed except the part of shooting wrong plane.
US has not detected anything implicating Russia and there are some serious questions (not evidence yet) to ukrainians.

 

[Jayjay]

Fake? Just because they say things you don't like doesn't make them fake. Here's a summary of what we have:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6ee_1405625074

Pentagon said video was fake. In fact they complained that Ukrainian government was collecting garbage from the internet without any kind of check

When did Pentagon say it was fake? I thought they admitted it was "unconfirmed". That is not the same as fake.

 

[Jayjay]

Jayjay, there is evidence that ukrainians are a bit lying.
At the moment nobody seriously suggesting that Su-25 shot the plane but it was there and Ukrainians lied when they say nothing was there.
Su-25 is not a fighter, it is low altitude ground attack plane. Even if it's possible to shoot airliner from Su-25 it would still be possible to differentiate whatever Su-25 can use and Buk.

What was it doing there, is just one of the questions, another one is why Ukrainians had Buk Radars ON and why they were moving them around before and more importantly after the crash. Why do they even have them in the area? what for?
Waiting for russian plane sneaking in to shoot it? That would be pretty stupid with all these civilian planes from Europe going to Asia.

Ukraine should definitely come out open if there was a Su-25 there. But so far the theory that Russia is just making it up seems just as credible as Ukraine lying about it. Same with the alleged BUK deployment, how does the satellite image show that it was Ukrainian, and not Russian?

 

[barbos]

Pentagon said video was fake. In fact they complained that Ukrainian government was collecting garbage from the internet without any kind of check

When did Pentagon say it was fake? I thought they admitted it was "unconfirmed". That is not the same as fake.

"unconfirmed" is a nice way to say "fake"

 

[barbos]

Jayjay, there is evidence that ukrainians are a bit lying.
At the moment nobody seriously suggesting that Su-25 shot the plane but it was there and Ukrainians lied when they say nothing was there.
Su-25 is not a fighter, it is low altitude ground attack plane. Even if it's possible to shoot airliner from Su-25 it would still be possible to differentiate whatever Su-25 can use and Buk.

What was it doing there, is just one of the questions, another one is why Ukrainians had Buk Radars ON and why they were moving them around before and more importantly after the crash. Why do they even have them in the area? what for?
Waiting for russian plane sneaking in to shoot it? That would be pretty stupid with all these civilian planes from Europe going to Asia.

Ukraine should definitely come out open if there was a Su-25 there. But so far the theory that Russia is just making it up seems just as credible as Ukraine lying about it. Same with the alleged BUK deployment, how does the satellite image show that it was Ukrainian, and not Russian?

Su-25 almost certainly was there They are always there. Today separatists shot 2 of them down in the same area where crash happened.
I don't put much weight into Su-25 having anything to do with anything and ukrainians probably denied it automatically because they don't keep track of what they are doing there. But ukrainian Buks in the area is another matter, I want some kind of answer to that.