Not as important as petty rockets in Israel, but apparently Malaysian Airliner downed by rocket fire

[Ford]

So which ones are debunked, and which ones aren't, and for those that are debunked, where is the exact line of reasoning that debunks them?

After reading chopra's posts the line of reasoning should be clear:

Step 1. Start with the assumption that Ukraine, the US, and the "western media" are all responsible.

Step 2. Never question step 1.


There really isn't a step 3. Once you've decided that this whole thing is a sinister conspiracy to make the "freedom fighters" in Ukraine (what most people call pro Russian rebels) look bad, then nothing else needs to be done except repeat the accusations based on that assumption and dismiss out of hand anything which calls this line of reasoning (if you can call it reasoning) into question.

Even barbos - who is an ardent defender of all things Russian - seems to have accepted that the missile came from the rebels, albeit accidentally.

 

[barbos]

If western media is so great why they are not pressuring about Odessa?
What's their fucking excuse?

There are plenty of independent western media outlets that have reported on alternative theories about what happened in Odessa, you're painting an incorrect picture of the 'western media' not doing so based on nothing more than your personal bias.

Are you implying that the ones which reported lies about Odessa incident are dependent and have not corrected their obvious lie?
Care to give a link to these independent western media outlets?
And no, bloggers don't count. Something with a TV station, or actual paper paper.

It also has everything to do with the fact that despite what you undoubtedly believe, there is no clear evidence as it being purported by the ukrainian government. You've made up your mind about what happened,

Really? that's what you think I think?
Fucking ukrainians themselves pretty much confirmed that they were lying, that there were all unarmed ukrainians, and there were no snipers

and drone on and on about how the western media don't support your interpretation. And you use odessa whenever you're faced with arguments you can't defeat by actually addressing them. Fuck off about Odessa, it has nothing to do with the plane; and the fact that in your opinion western media don't pay enough attention to it does nothing to absolve the blatant disregard for the truth in the Russian media. The western media may not be perfect, but at least it doesn't routinely outright lie to us like Russian media does.

You mister is full of shit!

 

[barbos]

Yes, Russia has Radars which can see behind the border.

The statement in the post said "eyewitness" which implies eyewitness, seeing it visually... on what appears to be a cloudy day. If the claim is that Russian radar indicated jets near the plane, that is what the claim should be, not "eyewitnesses".

And no, eyewitnesses were not claiming military jets at 33,000 feet.

The plane was allegedly at 33,000 feet.

Su-25 can not get higher than 6-7 km and jets tend to have vapor trails so even at 10km you can see them

When it isn't cloudy.

I answered all your questions already, and no, original post contained no word "eyewitnesses".

 

[barbos]

Yes; I'm lacking the imagination required to delude myself into thinking there's any other possible reason. Why don't you share your wondrous imagination with us? Let's see how it explains why they would deliberately cut up the fucking evidence before the international experts can show up to analyze it? Do you think we should start letting all criminal suspects destroy the evidence at the crimescene?

They were not destroying evidence.they were searching the plane, they said it themselves in the intercepted phone conversation.
How do you think they found black boxes?
How do you think they determined that plane contained no weapons?
You mister is incredibly biased against russia and can't see anything which does not support your incredibly retarded and biased hate against russians.

I have another question for you

Oh joy.

Why would Ukrainian forces try to kill Malaysian investigators?

They wouldn't, and they haven't. If you think otherwise then you've just been lied to by the Russian state media again. At no point have Malaysian, or Dutch, or other investigators been attacked by Ukrainian forces. They HAVE been severely hampered in their efforts by the seperatists who control the area, however.

So far western media lied way more than Russian state media.

 

[barbos]

Back to the immediate topic.
Sources in Pentagon admit that US has no evidence of Russian involvement and that they think separatists shot it by mistake.
I agree with Pentagon sources.

 

[tupac chopra]

It does look more and more like if the plane was shot down using a BUK launcher, and that the Ukranians from Kiev are complete amateurs when it comes to fabricating evidence.
First there was the fake video supposedly with rebel forces admitting to the shooting down, which had the wrong timestamp.

But also there was the video posted on the Ukraine Ministry of the Interior account supposedly showing a BUK launcher in rebel controlled territory with a missile missing.

Turns out that the BUK launcher was in fact filmed on territory controlled by Kiev. Those dopes from Kiev couldn't even get that right.

So what the fuck is a BUK launcher doing on Kiev controlled territory with a missile missing?

 

[Ford]

Back to the immediate topic.
Sources in Pentagon admit that US has no evidence of Russian involvement and that they think separatists shot it by mistake.
I agree with Pentagon sources.

So if you accept that the separatists shot it, then the next question is, how did they get the ability to pull off such a feat?


The western media didn't hand over the missile system.

We can safely assume the Ukrainian government didn't give them the weapons.


So they got the Buk from...? They got the know-how to use it from...?

 

[tupac chopra]

Back to the immediate topic.
Sources in Pentagon admit that US has no evidence of Russian involvement and that they think separatists shot it by mistake.
I agree with Pentagon sources.

What possible evidence do you have that the rebels fired it?

 

[Harry Bosch]

What possible evidence do you have that the rebels fired it?

It was fired from rebel controlled area.

 

[barbos]

Back to the immediate topic.
Sources in Pentagon admit that US has no evidence of Russian involvement and that they think separatists shot it by mistake.
I agree with Pentagon sources.

So if you accept that the separatists shot it, then the next question is, how did they get the ability to pull off such a feat?

You have a memory of encephalitic squirrel, don't you?
Rebels captured it on June 29. They took control over the whole ukrainian base with Buk(s) in it.

The western media didn't hand over the missile system.

We can safely assume the Ukrainian government didn't give them the weapons.

Rebels captured it on June 29. They took control over the whole ukrainian base with Buk(s) in it.

So they got the Buk from...? They got the know-how to use it from...?

Rebels captured it on June 29. They took control over the whole ukrainian base with Buk(s) in it.

 

[Ford]

Back to the immediate topic.
Sources in Pentagon admit that US has no evidence of Russian involvement and that they think separatists shot it by mistake.
I agree with Pentagon sources.

What possible evidence do you have that the rebels fired it?

 

[barbos]

What possible evidence do you have that the rebels fired it?

It was fired from rebel controlled area.

Well, that's what US politician Obama claims.
Pentagon sources claim much less.
And if what russians are claiming is true then who controlled what is disputable.
It's possible that Ukrainians shot their Buk from the area near separatist controlled one.

 

[tupac chopra]

What possible evidence do you have that the rebels fired it?

It was fired from rebel controlled area.

What evidence do you have that it was?

 

[tupac chopra]

The circumstantial evidence pointing to Kievs involvement is growing by the day.

1. An apparently faked youtube video.
2. Fake photos purporting to be a BUK launcher in rebel held territory.
3. Eyewitness reports of Military jets near or accompanying the doomed airliner.
4. Video shots of these planes from the Rostov military centre so the Russians claim.
5. Photos of the Ukranians deploying BUK launchers in South eastern Ukraine.

The Russians are starting to release this evidence, into the public eye where it can be examined.

"Starting to release"? In other words, they have not released the evidence yet? How does that make Russian claims any more credible than American claims?

You can find some more evidence here, 10 more questions Russian military pose to Ukraine, US over MH17 crash.

America and Ukraine have produced nothing (except some false evidence that has been debunked).

What is Kiev and the USA hiding from the world?

 

[Ford]

It's possible that Ukrainians shot their Buk from the area near separatist controlled one.

Excuse me, I have the memory of encephalitic squirrel, but it seems to me that just a few minutes ago you made it very clear you believe the missile was fired by the separatists using a weapons system they captured on June 29. You were so sure you repeated it three times.

 

[bilby]

It was fired from rebel controlled area.

What evidence do you have that it was?

The aircraft ELB came down 32 nautical miles (59km) from Donetsk Airport on bearing 078 (12^o North of due East).

According to this map, published by the BBC on 18 July, the area East of Donetsk was, at that time, under rebel control.

According to YOUR OWN source, the maximum range of the BUK M1, (which according to YOUR OWN source is the system the Ukraine has available), is 16km; so the missile can only have been fired from a rebel controlled area, or by somebody other than the Ukraine forces.

 

[barbos]

It's possible that Ukrainians shot their Buk from the area near separatist controlled one.

Excuse me, I have the memory of encephalitic squirrel, but it seems to me that just a few minutes ago you made it very clear you believe the missile was fired by the separatists using a weapons system they captured on June 29. You were so sure you repeated it three times.

Wow, You do have a brain of a squirrel.
Yes I said I believe that, which means based on known fact it is a most likely scenario.
If I knew that for a fact I would have stated so, like for example "It is established fact that separatists did that".
It is still possible Ukrainians did that, but less likely.

 

[Ford]

Excuse me, I have the memory of encephalitic squirrel, but it seems to me that just a few minutes ago you made it very clear you believe the missile was fired by the separatists using a weapons system they captured on June 29. You were so sure you repeated it three times.

Wow, You do have a brain of a squirrel.
Yes I said I believe that, which means based on known fact it is a most likely scenario.
If I knew that for a fact I would have stated so, like for example "It is established fact that separatists did that".
It is still possible Ukrainians did that, but less likely.

So you're leaving yourself an option open where given the opportunity you can walk back everything and blame it all on those pesky Ukrainians.

 

[barbos]

bilby,
According to russian military intelligence at least one Ukrainian Buk was in the range.

 

[barbos]

So you're leaving yourself an option open where given the opportunity you can walk back everything and blame it all on those pesky Ukrainians.

I can't parse that to have any contextual meaning.
Maybe it's squirrel brain of yours.