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Oklahoma fraternity being persecuted by PC Police

Well, the black frats normally don't own their own houses. They would reserve a large room in the student union. The interesting thing is, I worked at the student union and had a front row seat to all of their parties. I've never heard so much "murder", "kill", "rape", and vile shit in my life. "Step Show" and "Step Party" were kinda interchangeable.



It was illegal to have alcohol on university property -- the black frats got a pass on this as well. You may find this amazing, but white Greeks really don't spends a lot of time making up or handing down generation after generation anti-black people chants. Our primary concern was beer and girls.
And steps shows are about putting other black frats in the dozens, not white people.
What?


first, really?

You went to ALL the black frat parties where you heard so much filth, and you just had to keep going back to hear a large group black males talk about murdering...who?

I was an officer in my chapter of ZPB, president of the black student union, chair of the finance committee of the campus NAACP, charter member of the African American Historical Society, and even I didn't go to ALL the black frat parties.

And what exactly have you proved?

Where did I condemn all predominantly white frats? this is about SAE. If you want to claim the behavior of this chapter is indicative of all white frats, I will just have to take your word for it.

And as for chants being handed down? SAE was making that same chant in the eighties. I know because I heard members at UNC doing it when I was there.

I just don't get this typical reaction of some white men of "Um, they're just as bad." First, that is usually not the case. Second, more importantly, that is irrelevant to the discussion of the specific situation or behavior. All in all it is a rather infantile reaction that makes this white man cringe.
 
Well, the black frats normally don't own their own houses. They would reserve a large room in the student union. The interesting thing is, I worked at the student union and had a front row seat to all of their parties. I've never heard so much "murder", "kill", "rape", and vile shit in my life. "Step Show" and "Step Party" were kinda interchangeable.



It was illegal to have alcohol on university property -- the black frats got a pass on this as well. You may find this amazing, but white Greeks really don't spends a lot of time making up or handing down generation after generation anti-black people chants. Our primary concern was beer and girls.
And steps shows are about putting other black frats in the dozens, not white people.
What?


first, really?

You went to ALL the black frat parties where you heard so much filth, and you just had to keep going back to hear a large group black males talk about murdering...who?

I was an officer in my chapter of ZPB, president of the black student union, chair of the finance committee of the campus NAACP, charter member of the African American Historical Society, and even I didn't go to ALL the black frat parties.

And what exactly have you proved?

Where did I condemn all predominantly white frats? this is about SAE. If you want to claim the behavior of this chapter is indicative of all white frats, I will just have to take your word for it.

And as for chants being handed down? SAE was making that same chant in the eighties. I know because I heard members at UNC doing it when I was there.


Maybe Noble figures that condemning a white racist fraternity is the same thing as condemning all white fraternities because all white people are racist. :cheeky:
 
Hang on a minute there. Are you telling me that if a university bars from campus someone who threatens to shoot up the place or to set bombs or to poison the drinking water in the administration building, the university wouldn't be justified in barring that person from campus?

They would be justified here.

Why?

What if someone stands on the steps of the student union and shouts that women are whores and shouldn't be allowed to attend classes but should be kept home learning women things like cooking and child-rearing?

I'm ok with this as long as it is in a designated area.

Why a designated area? Why not anywhere on campus? If you are limiting their rights to say what they want where they want when they want, aren't you limiting their rights to free speech?

What if students enter a classroom where the lecture of the day is gay rights? Women's rights? The civil right's movement? Are they still to be allowed to exercise their free speech rights in the middle of class? Even if it disrupts the class being taught?


On one hand you have a point: everyone has a right to express their opinions without fear of arrest or government interference. And sure, unpopular opinions will get shouted down. For the most part, bombastic statements are taken as just that: all hot air, sound and fury signifying nothing.

But the circumstances matter.

A group of 37 Klansmen, dressed in full Klan dress, march through the streets of any black neighborhood in a major city waving signs full of racist shit, shouting horrifically racist slogans. People may be disgusted, revolted and extremely angered but they are not very likely to be threatened (let's ignore Ferguson for a moment). The Klansmen are probably in more danger and likely would require a police escort to ensure their safety. It is clear that they have little real power in that situation and are not a true threat. Their words are so much sound and fury. And indeed, this has been determined to be a legal exercise of their free speech, however hateful.

Now, those same 37 Klansmen, dressed the same way, with the same signs, the same slogans march onto the campus of a university which is 97% white but which has recently installed its first black president as well as has recently begun a campus exchange with a traditionally black university so that there are 40 or so black students who have just enrolled as part of that exchange. In this case, the actions of the Klansmen are much more intimidating, and designed to instill fear. In other words, to make the environment of the university unwelcoming and even hostile to the new president and new students who are the targets of the hate speech. This becomes something a bit different.

That same group of Klansmen, up to their same antics, marches into a small town with a small but significant black community and gathers to shout and demonstrate outside the newly established Mt. Sinai Baptist Church, membership largely black which is holding its first annual dinner honoring senior citizens, and featuring entertainment provided by the children's choir. The intent to intimidate is much more clear here.

Are all allowed? The speech is equally hateful in each case but in the first, it is not credibly threatening and cannot credibly be said to be creating fear or intimidation. In the second and third cases, the intent to create fear and intimidate, in fact to demonstrate how unwelcome blacks are is very clear. The vileness of the speech is not what is unprotected. It is the intent to intimidate and to stop others from exercising their rights that makes the Klan actions perhaps illegal.
 
AthenaAwakened,

You didn't even read what I wrote. The black frats did not have houses. They used the student union. It was my job to open the doors, talk with whoever registered the room, and just be around if there was a problem. At the end of the night I locked the doors. Because the little office I sat in was right next to the party room, I heard and saw what was going on. When alcohol was going in or out I conveniently didn't see it. Generally, I didn't have any issues with them. If they want to say "kill whitie", ok.

Where did I condemn all predominantly white frats?

Did I say you did?

this is about SAE. If you want to claim the behavior of this chapter is indicative of all white frats, I will just have to take your word for it.

And as for chants being handed down? SAE was making that same chant in the eighties. I know because I heard members at UNC doing it when I was there.

Yeah, fine. They should stop doing it. Is racism systemic to the entire Greek system? No. I can give plenty examples of frats being racist, but it was more the exception than the rule. We made efforts to reach out, but were rebuffed.
 
There was a black sorority girl who had the same job as me. She was really cool and thought me about the secret whistles.
 
Whoa. SAE fraternity files lawsuit, denies they are racist, say they're being 'tarred and feathered'

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/...racist-say-they-re-being-tarred-and-feathered

I don't know what's less surprising: that conservolibertarians are defending what they did (both in the media and on these forums), or that the racist fraternity members are "fighting back" with a lawsuit.

And this is why I recommend social shunning and ignoring. Much more effective than a lynch mob.
 
Why to go with the inaccurate hyperbole Undersear. They haven't filed shit yet. They just retained an attorney.
 
They would be justified here.

Why?

What if someone stands on the steps of the student union and shouts that women are whores and shouldn't be allowed to attend classes but should be kept home learning women things like cooking and child-rearing?

I'm ok with this as long as it is in a designated area.

Why a designated area? Why not anywhere on campus? If you are limiting their rights to say what they want where they want when they want, aren't you limiting their rights to free speech?
Yes, I'm limiting their free speech in the least restrictive means. Maybe there is a better idea, but that was mine.

What if students enter a classroom where the lecture of the day is gay rights? Women's rights? The civil right's movement? Are they still to be allowed to exercise their free speech rights in the middle of class? Even if it disrupts the class being taught?


On one hand you have a point: everyone has a right to express their opinions without fear of arrest or government interference. And sure, unpopular opinions will get shouted down. For the most part, bombastic statements are taken as just that: all hot air, sound and fury signifying nothing.

But the circumstances matter.

A group of 37 Klansmen, dressed in full Klan dress, march through the streets of any black neighborhood in a major city waving signs full of racist shit, shouting horrifically racist slogans. People may be disgusted, revolted and extremely angered but they are not very likely to be threatened (let's ignore Ferguson for a moment). The Klansmen are probably in more danger and likely would require a police escort to ensure their safety. It is clear that they have little real power in that situation and are not a true threat. Their words are so much sound and fury. And indeed, this has been determined to be a legal exercise of their free speech, however hateful.

Now, those same 37 Klansmen, dressed the same way, with the same signs, the same slogans march onto the campus of a university which is 97% white but which has recently installed its first black president as well as has recently begun a campus exchange with a traditionally black university so that there are 40 or so black students who have just enrolled as part of that exchange. In this case, the actions of the Klansmen are much more intimidating, and designed to instill fear. In other words, to make the environment of the university unwelcoming and even hostile to the new president and new students who are the targets of the hate speech. This becomes something a bit different.

That same group of Klansmen, up to their same antics, marches into a small town with a small but significant black community and gathers to shout and demonstrate outside the newly established Mt. Sinai Baptist Church, membership largely black which is holding its first annual dinner honoring senior citizens, and featuring entertainment provided by the children's choir. The intent to intimidate is much more clear here.

Are all allowed? The speech is equally hateful in each case but in the first, it is not credibly threatening and cannot credibly be said to be creating fear or intimidation. In the second and third cases, the intent to create fear and intimidate, in fact to demonstrate how unwelcome blacks are is very clear. The vileness of the speech is not what is unprotected. It is the intent to intimidate and to stop others from exercising their rights that makes the Klan actions perhaps illegal.

Columbia, MO did something very cool when the Klan wanted to march. They past an ordinance saying you couldn't have a parade with everyone masked for safety reasons. That killed the march without any fuss.
 
So you are going to evade my question?

In your ideal world, do I or do I not have the right to bar someone from the inside of my premises if that person is using hateful, hurtful, abusive speech that is causing me emotional and/or financial harm?

You are barring entrance not speech.

I assume the barred person can speak as freely as they want.

Just as the racists on the bus can continue to sign their little ditty... just not at the university
 
But what if you bar them entry _because_ of words they have spoken (as the University is doing?)

These people were already accepted at the University. They were already granted entrance.

The University is punishing speech, not barring entrance.

So if the person has already entered my shop before he becomes verbally abusive, I'm screwed? I have to let him stay while all of my paying customer leave and I am caused emotional pain/distress as well as financial harm?
 
I just don't get this typical reaction of some white men of "Um, they're just as bad." First, that is usually not the case. Second, more importantly, that is irrelevant to the discussion of the specific situation or behavior. All in all it is a rather infantile reaction that makes this white man cringe.
If you are happy with double standards and hypocrisy, just say it. You don't mind black frats branding their pledges? Of all the things I've said and commented on in this thread, it is interesting that this is the only thing you want to bitch about.
 
This is really interesting. Love watching this style of dance, but never knew the origins and always called it "STOMP" - which apparently came from this:  The first nationally syndicated stepping contest, S.T.O.M.P., aired in 1992 was created by Frank Mercardo Valdes, produced by the World African Network and Vic Bulluck and choreographed by Vernon Jackson and Jimmy Hamilton of Alpha phi Alpha fraternity.

What does "putting other black frats in the dozens" mean?

putting someone in the dozen is basically playing a game of insults. there are actual formal competitions this.

Yo Mama jokes come out of the dozens

At my first step show, DST did this chant about AKA

We're laughing at you cuz you went the wrong way
We're laughing at you cuz you're AKA
We're laughing at you cuz you dig that aka jive
All because ya couldn't get a two point five

We're laughing at you cuz you wear that pink and green
Those damn colors just make us scream!



And stuff like that.

Got it. I wonder how many people cringe that it is now a K-Mart commercial :p
 
You are barring entrance not speech.

I assume the barred person can speak as freely as they want.

Just as the racists on the bus can continue to sign their little ditty... just not at the university

Is kicking people out the same as not letting them in?

The University denies a lot of people entrance for all kinds of reasons.

This is about punishment of speech that merely offends.

Perhaps some University would want to punish atheists who offend the Christian students with their mocking of religion.

With your formulation that is perfectly acceptable.
 
These people were already accepted at the University. They were already granted entrance.

The University is punishing speech, not barring entrance.

So if the person has already entered my shop before he becomes verbally abusive, I'm screwed? I have to let him stay while all of my paying customer leave and I am caused emotional pain/distress as well as financial harm?

If they are ACTING in a threatening manner then that is one thing.

If they are sitting in the corner howling at the moon they need help.
 
I just don't get this typical reaction of some white men of "Um, they're just as bad." First, that is usually not the case. Second, more importantly, that is irrelevant to the discussion of the specific situation or behavior. All in all it is a rather infantile reaction that makes this white man cringe.
If you are happy with double standards and hypocrisy, just say it. You don't mind black frats branding their pledges? Of all the things I've said and commented on in this thread, it is interesting that this is the only thing you want to bitch about.
I don't see double standards in your posts - I see inappropriate comparisons and illogic. The OP is about specific racist behavior. Your anecdotes are not. Your off-topic "observations" and generalizations are common "but they do it too" complaints by white men that serve to derail adult discussion about serious issues. Start your own thread about this perceived injustice, so the rest of us can be spared these infantile and off-topic whines.
 
Dude, this thread has been all over the map. If you actually read most of what I wrote you would fully understand that I do NO approve of what the SAE's at U of OK did. You are just looking for a fight, so please fuck off. I see you never corrected your statement about rap lyrics.
 
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Just as the racists on the bus can continue to sign their little ditty... just not at the university

Is kicking people out the same as not letting them in?
You tell me. This is your ideal world. Will I be able to kick someone out of my shop because they are engaging in vile, demeaning, offensive, abusive speech while inside my shop?

So if the person has already entered my shop before he becomes verbally abusive, I'm screwed? I have to let him stay while all of my paying customer leave and I am caused emotional pain/distress as well as financial harm?

If they are ACTING in a threatening manner then that is one thing.

If they are sitting in the corner howling at the moon they need help.

I was quite specific. They are neither ACTING in a "threatening manner" nor "merely" "sitting in the corner howling at the moon". They are "engaging in vile, demeaning, offensive, abusive speech" which is causing my paying customers to leave and causing me great emotional distress on my own property.

You continue to dance around this very direct question.
 
I've seen signs on shops that say something to the effect of "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone". Presumably, not because of race, religion, etc. though. If someone is being disruptive in your shop for any reason (spewing racial bile, has bad BO, is loudly ranting about abortion (or pro-choice), you can kick them out...legally. This is not complicated.
 
This is really not that complicated legally.

"Free speech" means the government can't punish you for speaking.
It does not mean private institutions can't dish out consequences for speaking.
It does not mean the government can't place reasonable time, place and manner restrictions on speaking.
Public universities are considered "the government"

This is the current - very well defined by multiple court cases - state of free speech in the USA.

Feel free to argue it ought to be different, but this is how it is now.
 
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