Op Ed: Brexit is teaching Britain its true place in the world

[Underseer]

https://www.ft.com/content/29468d52...FJ-83a4hY4o5kN1Q1ZV2YjZc5ARXXTJYlyAC75Z2CcVG8



I freely admit that I haven't been following the Brexit thing very closely, nor am I all that knowledgeable about Britain, the EU, nor the current negotiations, so my opinion about all of this is pretty moot.

The author of this opinion piece paints a pretty harsh picture of the role Britain's delusions played in the Brexit vote and how badly things are going to go for Britain in the long run.

 

[EvoUK]

Yup, pretty much. The whole process has been a monumental fuck up from the beginning, not least because it's all been so tiresomely predictable.

The leader of the opposition has to also share some blame as he's currently failing in his role of holding the government to account.

 

[lpetrich]

If anything, it goes to show how far Britain has fallen from having been a Great Power.

But even in Britain's Great Power days, it was not much of a power on the European continent. But Britain had free run of our planet's oceans, and it had colonies scattered all over our globe. "The Sun never set on the British Empire" -- there was always some bit of it that was illuminated by our planet's star.  The empire on which the sun never sets -- earlier said of the Spanish Empire. From  List of largest empires, the British Empire was the champion at 24% of our planet's land area in 1920. This is despite having lost thirteen rebellious colonies nearly 150 years earlier.

Britain did that by maintaining a big navy, and during its empire days, it had free run of our planet's oceans.  Rule, Britannia! was written in 1740, an an exhortation to have enough naval power to repel an invasion from the Continent. The thought of big standing armies provoked bad memories of Oliver Cromwell's rule. Memories of Britain's success against the Spanish Armada in 1588 may also have helped.

When Britain first, at Heaven's command
Arose from out the azure main;
This was the charter of the land,
And guardian angels sang this strain:

"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:
"Britons never will be slaves."

By the nineteenth century, ruling the waves changed from exhortation to fact.

But more recently, especially since World War II and decolonization, Britain is now a much more modest naval power, and the US has taken over from it as the planetary naval power.

 

[southernhybrid]

I've been trying to follow Brexit, but as a poorly informed American, sometimes I don't understand all of the details. I have read that a lot of people are terrified if some sort of compromise isn't made before March. I guess that's due to not being able to move goods over the border easily? And, if I remember correctly, immigrants will also suffer, as well as those who work on both sides of the border?

It's good that someone finally brought up this issue, and I'd love our UK posters to give us their opinions on Brexit. Will there be no deal made by May before Brexit takes effect? Are you worried about the results? Do you think there is any possibility of a redo? I've also read that a lot of people regret their votes and some didn't think it would really pass. So, please UK folks, give us more info. It seems as if both of our countries are heading for disaster. Are your citizens as poorly informed as many in the US? Enlighten us.

 

[ruby sparks]

People outside the UK not understanding Brexit is not surprising since imo no one here understands it either or knows what the effects of it will be, especially since no one yet knows what Brexit is going to be.

Probably short term uncertainty. That's what's giving everyone the jitters at the moment, not least businesses.

Long term is less certain. It could be good, it could be bad.

Being from NI raises special issues, since we are now going to have the first ever land border between Britain and the EU (Britain and Ireland both joined at about the same time, in 1973). Nobody mentioned that during the Brexit campaign, but now it's a hot issue, and is being used by Republicans to push for a United Ireland.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yup, pretty much. The whole process has been a monumental fuck up from the beginning, not least because it's all been so tiresomely predictable.

The leader of the opposition has to also share some blame as he's currently failing in his role of holding the government to account.

I hate to say it but I don't know much about Brexit. Are you an American living in the UK? Regardless, I'd like to know more. It seems to me (although correct me if I'm wrong) but it appears to me that English want the benefits of free trade with Europe but want to close their borders? Secondly, will the high paying import/export jobs move to Scotland and Ireland? Is there any chance that a new Brexit vote will be held?

 

[ruby sparks]

I've been trying to follow Brexit, but as a poorly informed American, sometimes I don't understand all of the details. I have read that a lot of people are terrified if some sort of compromise isn't made before March. I guess that's due to not being able to move goods over the border easily? And, if I remember correctly, immigrants will also suffer, as well as those who work on both sides of the border?

It's good that someone finally brought up this issue, and I'd love our UK posters to give us their opinions on Brexit. Will there be no deal made by May before Brexit takes effect? Are you worried about the results? Do you think there is any possibility of a redo? I've also read that a lot of people regret their votes and some didn't think it would really pass. So, please UK folks, give us more info. It seems as if both of our countries are heading for disaster. Are your citizens as poorly informed as many in the US? Enlighten us.

I voted Remain, so I lean towards thinking that it wasn't broke so why fix it and that the whole thing was probably unnecessary.

The 'Theresa May' compromise agreement is currently going through parliament. Who knows what will happen? A second referendum before March seems very unlikely. But there are so many variables. If Theresa May gets toppled, that could change everything.

One thing which has become apparent is that in one way it's not quite as similar to what happened in America as it might have seemed. It's not entirely a lurch to the right. For example, the main opposition, Labour ('proper left' in Americanspeak), under Jeremy Corbyn, are not against it (although they are sitting on the fence). Labour's current sales pitch is that they could get a better Brexit deal than the conservatives (and Labour is hoping that something can trigger a general election). Only the Liberal Democrats have been supporting a rethink (second referendum).

 

[Harry Bosch]

I've been trying to follow Brexit, but as a poorly informed American, sometimes I don't understand all of the details. I have read that a lot of people are terrified if some sort of compromise isn't made before March. I guess that's due to not being able to move goods over the border easily? And, if I remember correctly, immigrants will also suffer, as well as those who work on both sides of the border?

It's good that someone finally brought up this issue, and I'd love our UK posters to give us their opinions on Brexit. Will there be no deal made by May before Brexit takes effect? Are you worried about the results? Do you think there is any possibility of a redo? I've also read that a lot of people regret their votes and some didn't think it would really pass. So, please UK folks, give us more info. It seems as if both of our countries are heading for disaster. Are your citizens as poorly informed as many in the US? Enlighten us.

I voted Remain, so I lean towards thinking that it wasn't broke so why fix it and that the whole thing was probably unnecessary.

The 'Theresa May' compromise agreement is currently going through parliament. Who knows what will happen? A second referendum before March seems very unlikely. But there are so many variables. If Theresa May gets toppled, that could change everything.

One thing which has become apparent is that in one way it's not quite as similar to what happened in America as it might seem. It's not entirely a lurch to the right. For example, Labour, under Jeremy Corbyn, are not against it (although they are sitting on the fence).

So Ireland is under Brexit also? Is Scotland?

 

[ruby sparks]

Northern Ireland and Scotland are included in Brexit. The Republic of Ireland isn't.

- - - Updated - - -



Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are Brexiting.

 

[ruby sparks]

 

[Harry Bosch]

Northern Ireland and Scotland are included in Brexit. The Republic of Ireland isn't.

- - - Updated - - -

View attachment 18998

Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are Brexiting.

Interesting. Are there many Northern Ireland companies moving to Southern Ireland to take advantage of the trade?

 

[ruby sparks]

In some ways, this has been coming. I'm not especially interested in Politics so this is just my relatively inexpert tuppenceworth.

Britain was not in the original European Economic Community (EEC) and when it joined in 1973 there was much debate and if I recall right it wasn't a big majority that got us in. Since then, the UK has been one of the main net (financial) contributors, but there were always those who felt that Germany and France set the larger agenda and were responsible for 'going too far' with the 'project', and trying to create a United States of Europe, in which individual countries sovereignties were subsumed and which was very expansionist (Turkey as a potential candidate for instance). Every time, at least in recent years, a new country was added, it was a poorer country.

As such, Britons have always wondered what we're getting out of it and whether we're getting our money's worth. The UK is still the world's 5th largest economy.

The question, for me, is was it worth staying in or wasn't it, and in what ways? And I have not seen a comprehensive, independent analysis of that, before during or after the referendum. Incredibly.

 

[ruby sparks]

Northern Ireland and Scotland are included in Brexit. The Republic of Ireland isn't.

- - - Updated - - -

View attachment 18998

Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland are Brexiting.

Interesting. Are there many Northern Ireland companies moving to Southern Ireland to take advantage of the trade?

I don't know.

As things stand, all sorts of businesses in all parts of the UK are making contingency plans, but as far as I'm aware, most are waiting to see what happens.

Personally, I'm not even sure which of the north or south of Ireland would be the best place. The main customers and suppliers for businesses in both is the rest of the UK, and NI is going to have closer ties to that after Brexit than the Republic.

Some here are hoping there'll be an opportunity for NI to be some kind of 'gateway' state, in both directions, a halfway house between Britain and the EU.

Though as ever, the big issue for many voters here has to do with how Brexit will or won't affect the issue of uniting the Island into one country. It's fair to say that Brexit has put the cat among the pigeons in that regard.

 

[ruby sparks]

The other big issue is migration. As an island (or cluster of Islands, let's not forget The Isle of Man, which has it's own partially-detached government) Britain is in a good position, almost unique in the EU, position to regulate its borders, to 'pull up the drawbridge', at least if it were not for that pesky little border between NI and R of I.

 

[Horatio Parker]

The decision to move Britain 5000 miles away from the continent was a bad one.

 

[Politesse]

Ah, Britain. Europe's US.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The other big issue is migration. As an island (or cluster of Islands, let's not forget The Isle of Man, which has it's own partially-detached government) Britain is in a good position, almost unique in the EU, position to regulate its borders, to 'pull up the drawbridge', at least if it were not for that pesky little border between NI and R of I.

I also think that the situation in Scotland is interesting. Only 38% of Scots voted to leave the EU. I think that there's a chance that this mess may lead to both North Ireland and Scotland leaving the UK.

 

[Bronzeage]

The paradox of Brexit is they are trying to find a smart way to execute a very stupid plan.

 

[southernhybrid]

Ruby, the vote was 52% in favor and 48% opposed, from what I remember. It sounds like you guys are almost as confused as we are, when it comes to Brexit. The only American paper that ever seems to cover Brexit in much detail is the NYTimes, which has a pretty decent world news section. But, it does seem as if the voters that were in favor were about as bright as Trump supporters. Trump has said positive things about Brexit, so I'd be worried if I were you.

I know a redo is very unlikely, but I keep reading about people that haven't given up hope. It's probably like the wishful thinking of some of us who keep expecting that the Republicans are going to do a damn thing about Trump.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Ruby, the vote was 52% in favor and 48% opposed, from what I remember. It sounds like you guys are almost as confused as we are, when it comes to Brexit. The only American paper that ever seems to cover Brexit in much detail is the NYTimes, which has a pretty decent world news section. But, it does seem as if the voters that were in favor were about as bright as Trump supporters. Trump has said positive things about Brexit, so I'd be worried if I were you.

I know a redo is very unlikely, but I keep reading about people that haven't given up hope. It's probably like the wishful thinking of some of us who keep expecting that the Republicans are going to do a damn thing about Trump.

To keep to the directives of the voters, couldn't they complete Brexit, and then immediately turn around and get a new vote giving them a mandate to apply to rejoin? Then they can say they left as directed by voters.