Our genes say we must soon die. I say they are not the masters.

[ryan]

Again, death of themselves, family and friends is usually people's biggest concerns. Sometimes someone else has to remind people what is important to them because we can easily get sidetracked and caught up with less important concerns.

As for me, I'll live my life.

You need to be alive if you want to live your life.

 

[Mageth]

As for me, I'll live my life.

You need to be alive if you want to live your life.

Why did you trim the rest of what I said? "I, for one, do not waste my time worrying about death. You worry about death. As for me, I'll live my life."

ryan, I am alive, and I am living my life. If I spend my time worrying about death, I would not be living the life I want to live.

 

[ryan]

You need to be alive if you want to live your life.

Why did you trim the rest of what I said? "I, for one, do not waste my time worrying about death. You worry about death. As for me, I'll live my life."

This makes no sense. Do people waste their time at jobs? Is one job more of a waste of time than another?

The idea is that it is not a waste of time because this paradigm shift will add time to people's lives. The idea is that there would be more time added than lost.

 

[Mageth]

Why did you trim the rest of what I said? "I, for one, do not waste my time worrying about death. You worry about death. As for me, I'll live my life."

This makes no sense.

Huh?

I don't waste my time worrying about death. Instead, I live my life the way I want. If that doesn't make sense to you....WTF??? Or rather, I don't give a fuck what makes or does not make sense to you in your obsession-with-death-addled thinking.

Do people waste their time at jobs? Is one job more of a waste of time than another?

Worrying about death is not a job.

The idea is that it is not a waste of time because this paradigm shift will add time to people's lives. The idea is that there would be more time added than lost.

Adding time /= adding quality to life. The simplistic idea that "more is better" is, well, simple-minded. If you want to be concerned about something more important than more time, be concerned about quality. Note that for me, quality of life goes hand in hand with not worrying about death. Worrying about death detracts from living. One becomes...obsessed with death, and obsessed with trying to avoid death. It's better just to live.

You asserted "death of themselves, family and friends is usually people's biggest concerns". This is false. It may be your biggest concern, but it's certainly not "usually people's biggest concerns" <sic>. It's certainly not my biggest concern. You seem to want to make it true - make others more concerned about death, to the point of switching jobs (even to the point of berating your own parents because they're puttering in their yard after retiring instead of working in a biology lab or something!!!). That, ryan, is clearly your obsession.

Death is not, will not be, and should not be my biggest concern. That would be a waste of my life.

 

[ryan]

This makes no sense.

Huh?

I don't waste my time worrying about death. Instead, I live my life the way I want. If that doesn't make sense to you....WTF??? Or rather, I don't give a fuck what makes or does not make sense to you in your obsession-with-death-addled thinking.

Do people waste their time at jobs? Is one job more of a waste of time than another?

Worrying about death is not a job.

The job isn't to worry about death; it is to control death. What did I say that makes you think that the job is to worry about death? How could you have misunderstood me so much?

The idea is that it is not a waste of time because this paradigm shift will add time to people's lives. The idea is that there would be more time added than lost.

Adding time /= adding quality to life.

I didn't say that it is equal. But I can tell you that this area of interest will certainly make the quality of our lives better health wise.

The simplistic idea that "more is better" is, well, short-sighted. If you want to be concerned about something more important than more time, be concerned about quality. Note that for me, quality of life goes hand in hand with not worrying about death. Worrying about death detracts from living. One becomes...obsessed with death, and obsessed with trying to avoid death. It's better just to live.

We void death consciously and unconsciously everyday.

You asserted "death of themselves, family and friends is usually people's biggest concerns". This is false.

You are so wrong.

It may be your biggest concern, but it's certainly not "usually people's biggest concerns" <sic>. It's certainly not my biggest concern. You seem to want to make it true - make others more concerned about death, to the point of switching jobs (even to the point of berating your own parents because they're puttering in their yard after retiring instead of working in a biology lab or something!!!). That, ryan, is your obsession.

I only go by what people say. Most people put their lives + families + friends first. Can you give me an example of what a typical person would rather have than those three things combined?

Death is not, will not be, and should not be my biggest concern. That would be a waste of my life.

I was talking about people in general, not specifically you even though I highly doubt you are being honest with yourself.

 

[DBT]

The World being a finite space, with finite resources, Ryan, what if you were extending your own lifespan to hundreds, or even thousands of years at the expense of those who would have been born in your place? Isn't it selfish to deny whole generations the opportunity to live and experience because you want to live 'forever?'

 

[ryan]

The World being a finite space, with finite resources, Ryan, what if you were extending your own lifespan to hundreds, or even thousands of years at the expense of those who would have been born in your place? Isn't it selfish to deny whole generations the opportunity to live and experience because you want to live 'forever?'

Deny something to someone who doesn't exist?

Well, we could always recycle ourselves into other people until all possible combinations of people have lived, and then we could live again. In other words, we could take turns living.

 

[PyramidHead]

I only go by what people say. Most people put their lives + families + friends first. Can you give me an example of what a typical person would rather have than those three things combined?

The freedom to follow their personal goals and dreams. I know what you're going to say: you can't do that when you're dead. Well, no, you can't. But everybody dies, and everybody knows this, and there is no way to change it. I am not convinced that eternal life is any more likely than the Second Coming. So, someone could just as easily say that everybody should quit their jobs and spend all their time preparing for the end times, because if you don't then you'll fry in hell for eternity. I treat both pieces of advice equally until I have reason to believe they are not equivalent.

 

[Mageth]

Death is not, will not be, and should not be my biggest concern. That would be a waste of my life.

I was talking about people in general, not specifically you even though I highly doubt you are being honest with yourself.

Seriously, ryan? There's something wrong with people that disagree with your assertion that most people's "biggest concern" is death? You insist that my biggest concern must actually be death even though I've told you it's not? That I'm lying to myself?

Listen to yourself, ryan...

Why are you so bent on having everyone share your particular obsession?

 

[ryan]

I only go by what people say. Most people put their lives + families + friends first. Can you give me an example of what a typical person would rather have than those three things combined?

The freedom to follow their personal goals and dreams. I know what you're going to say: you can't do that when you're dead. Well, no, you can't. But everybody dies, and everybody knows this, and there is no way to change it. I am not convinced that eternal life is any more likely than the Second Coming. So, someone could just as easily say that everybody should quit their jobs and spend all their time preparing for the end times, because if you don't then you'll fry in hell for eternity. I treat both pieces of advice equally until I have reason to believe they are not equivalent.

Yeah, if I knew for sure that it was impossible to control death, then I would agree with you. But I know the reality. The reality is that we are closing in on the ability to control death and the universe. I want to make sure that I help it so that I can be around for it, but time is ticking.

The number one cause of death is heart disease; the number two cause of death is cancer.

Permanent artificial hearts and promising cures for cancer are almost here. If interests, time, money and energy in these two causes of death increases, then we may have both almost completely solved.

 

[ryan]

I was talking about people in general, not specifically you even though I highly doubt you are being honest with yourself.

Seriously, ryan? There's something wrong with people that disagree with your assertion that most people's "biggest concern" is death? You insist that my biggest concern must actually be death even though I've told you it's not? That I'm lying to myself?

Listen to yourself, ryan...

Why are you so bent on having everyone share your particular obsession?

Forget that I said "concern". Your life + family (if applicable) + friends (if applicable) is typically of the greatest value to people.

 

[Mageth]

Forget that I said "concern". Your life + family (if applicable) + friends (if applicable) is typically of the greatest value to people.

I see you dropped "death" as well as "concern". I agree. I value my life, I value my family, I value my friends. But I don't obsess about death...not for me, not for my family, not for my friends.

 

[bilby]

Actually, comfort is of far greater value to most people than life.

Make someone's life uncomfortable enough, and they will try to end it.

The penal colony on the West coast of Tasmania was so awful, that men there preferred to die rather than endure the conditions. However, as many were devout Irish Catholics, they believed that suicide would send them to hell; so they would draw lots in groups of three. The winner would be killed by the man who came second. The loser agreed to act as witness. As murder was a capital crime, it could only be tried in Hobart; so the killer and the witness both got taken there for the trial. The killer would be convicted - and have an opportunity to take confession and be absolved before he was hanged. By this means, two men of the three could escape permanently from their torment; and the loser at least got a few weeks respite during the trial.

Does this sound like the sort of thing that would happen if life was the most important thing to people?

I would rather have 30 years of comfortable life than three centuries of life, two of which were spent in agony. So would most people.

 

[Mageth]

Actually, comfort is of far greater value to most people than life.

Absolutely.

 

[ryan]

Forget that I said "concern". Your life + family (if applicable) + friends (if applicable) is typically of the greatest value to people.

I see you dropped "death" as well as "concern". I agree. I value my life, I value my family, I value my friends. But I don't obsess about death...not for me, not for my family, not for my friends.

We care about being alive and the lives of your loved ones, so it is obvious that we should care about not dying. I can think of nothing that is this obvious. This is my point.

 

[ryan]

Actually, comfort is of far greater value to most people than life.

Make someone's life uncomfortable enough, and they will try to end it.

The penal colony on the West coast of Tasmania was so awful, that men there preferred to die rather than endure the conditions. However, as many were devout Irish Catholics, they believed that suicide would send them to hell; so they would draw lots in groups of three. The winner would be killed by the man who came second. The loser agreed to act as witness. As murder was a capital crime, it could only be tried in Hobart; so the killer and the witness both got taken there for the trial. The killer would be convicted - and have an opportunity to take confession and be absolved before he was hanged. By this means, two men of the three could escape permanently from their torment; and the loser at least got a few weeks respite during the trial.

Does this sound like the sort of thing that would happen if life was the most important thing to people?

I would rather have 30 years of comfortable life than three centuries of life, two of which were spent in agony. So would most people.

There is no reason that I can think that mastery over our biological conditions should mean a less happy life. I am sure that you can come up with a laundry list of what if's, but I will be able to match every single one with a positive what if.

You must be alive to be happy. Being alive gives you a chance at a happy life.

 

[bilby]

Actually, comfort is of far greater value to most people than life.

Make someone's life uncomfortable enough, and they will try to end it.

The penal colony on the West coast of Tasmania was so awful, that men there preferred to die rather than endure the conditions. However, as many were devout Irish Catholics, they believed that suicide would send them to hell; so they would draw lots in groups of three. The winner would be killed by the man who came second. The loser agreed to act as witness. As murder was a capital crime, it could only be tried in Hobart; so the killer and the witness both got taken there for the trial. The killer would be convicted - and have an opportunity to take confession and be absolved before he was hanged. By this means, two men of the three could escape permanently from their torment; and the loser at least got a few weeks respite during the trial.

Does this sound like the sort of thing that would happen if life was the most important thing to people?

I would rather have 30 years of comfortable life than three centuries of life, two of which were spent in agony. So would most people.

There is no reason that I can think that mastery over our biological conditions should mean a less happy life. I am sure that you can come up with a laundry list of what if's, but I will be able to match every single one with a positive what if.

You must be alive to be happy. Being alive gives you a chance at a happy life.

You are missing the point.

You are basing your argument on the premise that most people value life above all else.

I have shown this premise to be false.

People value other things more highly than life; comfort is one example of this.

Your obsession is not a majority viewpoint.

 

[Mageth]

I see you dropped "death" as well as "concern". I agree. I value my life, I value my family, I value my friends. But I don't obsess about death...not for me, not for my family, not for my friends.

We care about being alive and the lives of your loved ones, so it is obvious that we should care about not dying. I can think of nothing that is this obvious. This is my point.

I don't spend time "caring about being alive", and likewise I don't spend time "caring about not dying". Hell, I don't even know what it would mean to do those things. How do you "care about being alive"???

What's obvious to you is not necessarily obvious to anyone else.

 

[PyramidHead]

There is no reason that I can think that mastery over our biological conditions should mean a less happy life. I am sure that you can come up with a laundry list of what if's, but I will be able to match every single one with a positive what if.

Like any hypothetical, yours must be tempered by an honest assessment of likelihood. I completely support gaining mastery over our biological conditions, just as I support eradicating world poverty and hunger. However, I realize that (a) these tasks are nearly insurmountable, and (b) any contribution I make will be vanishingly small unless I dedicate much of my life to the cause. Some people are good at that. They give to charities and volunteer at soup kitchens. The really annoying ones go around making everybody else feel guilty for NOT doing that, which is essentially what you are doing.

You must be alive to be happy. Being alive gives you a chance at a happy life.

Two non sequiturs, because happiness is not a discreet quantity. In other words, the total accumulation of happy experiences is not necessarily the determinant of a good life; a single bad experience can ruin everything. As such, a happy life is not well-defined. It could mean a life of happy experiences that were never ruined by bad experiences. In that case, maybe a very long life isn't ideal, since it increases the chance for bad experiences, which can ruin a whole life. The equation is not as simple as "more life = more happiness = better life".

 

[ryan]

There is no reason that I can think that mastery over our biological conditions should mean a less happy life. I am sure that you can come up with a laundry list of what if's, but I will be able to match every single one with a positive what if.

You must be alive to be happy. Being alive gives you a chance at a happy life.

You are missing the point.

You are basing your argument on the premise that most people value life above all else.

I have shown this premise to be false.

In your example, are those who killed themselves most people?

People value other things more highly than life; comfort is one example of this.

You need life to be comfortable. Do you value the apple more than the tree that enables the apple to exist?

- - - Updated - - -

We care about being alive and the lives of your loved ones, so it is obvious that we should care about not dying. I can think of nothing that is this obvious. This is my point.

I don't spend time "caring about being alive", and likewise I don't spend time "caring about not dying". Hell, I don't even know what it would mean to do those things. How do you "care about being alive"???

Do you care about your car; do you care about your life?