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Our genes say we must soon die. I say they are not the masters.

Like any hypothetical, yours must be tempered by an honest assessment of likelihood. I completely support gaining mastery over our biological conditions, just as I support eradicating world poverty and hunger. However, I realize that (a) these tasks are nearly insurmountable, and (b) any contribution I make will be vanishingly small unless I dedicate much of my life to the cause. Some people are good at that. They give to charities and volunteer at soup kitchens. The really annoying ones go around making everybody else feel guilty for NOT doing that, which is essentially what you are doing.

At least I am just being annoying and not forceful like people behind other ideologies.

You must be alive to be happy. Being alive gives you a chance at a happy life.

Two non sequiturs, because happiness is not a discreet quantity.

Speaking of non sequiturs, it is like you are responding to a different post here.

In other words, the total accumulation of happy experiences is not necessarily the determinant of a good life; a single bad experience can ruin everything. As such, a happy life is not well-defined. It could mean a life of happy experiences that were never ruined by bad experiences. In that case, maybe a very long life isn't ideal, since it increases the chance for bad experiences, which can ruin a whole life. The equation is not as simple as "more life = more happiness = better life".

I understand what you're saying, but I don't know why you are saying it.

I have been at this stage of the argument before, so I will respond.

Most of the time, most people would rather be alive than not. Life is generally seen as a positive even though there are many negatives. In other words, the positives seem to outweigh the negatives. Happiness is not "conserved"; it can be created.
 
As the quote I provided from Cabrera demonstrates, you can't say "life is great because you need life to be happy," because it's just as vacuous as "life is bad because you need life to be sad." You will never convince anybody, unless they already agree with you about the relative balance of good and bad in the world.

Everybody wants to live, but that's not because we consciously decide every day, "I want to eat some cereal this morning. To eat cereal, I must be alive. Therefore, I will not kill myself." Our desire to live is pre-cognitive, for the most part. We are driven by an impulse older than mammals: custodient migremus. Keep movin' on.

So, winning over support for quitting one's job and becoming a life-extensionist of some sort won't be accomplished by rational argumentation. Our need to preserve ourselves isn't rationally grounded.

In my wildest dreams, the endgame of having total control over our biology would extend to our neurology as well. Gradually, we would eliminate the factors that lead to aging, decrepitude, and susceptibility to disease. Then, we would turn our attention to the brain, and remove all of the glandular secretions that are responsible for our basest qualities. We would no longer feel social anxiety or sexual guilt. Those pesky emotional attachments to family and friends, forged over millennia of kin selection in the Savannah, were clouding our critical faculties all along. Once discarded, nobody would feel grief after a breakup. Nobody would cry at a funeral. So far, it would appear that wrestling control of our mental state from our biological overlords is a good thing. However, along the way, we would engineer ourselves to no longer care about genetic survival. The very technology that enabled us to live perpetually would be responsible for taking away the urge to custodient migremus. Eventually, we'd have perfected the human mind to the point that no-one ever needed to "fill a void" in their life, because the Darwinian instincts that made us think that way were rewired. People would stop pursuing new goals and projects, and just be content with what they have. Without boredom or ennui, we'd cease to be interested in obtaining more and more things to distract us. In short, total control over our psychology could render us incapable of caring about whether we live or die. That worry was just one of the many concerns that made life miserable for Humans 1.0: constantly seeking the approval of others, antipathy towards people outside your group, selective memory, confirmation bias... visceral fear of death is no more logical than any of those tendencies, so why not hack into our processing and get rid of it, if we're already tinkering with biology?

Anybody who is really serious about changing our physical makeup will have to confront this possibility: that there is no absolute line between modifying our DNA so we live longer and modifying our neurotransmitters so we are unable to give a rat's ass about mortality.
 
I don't spend time "caring about being alive", and likewise I don't spend time "caring about not dying". Hell, I don't even know what it would mean to do those things. How do you "care about being alive"???

Do you care about your car...

No, can't say that I do. I have a car, I take care of the car, but I don't spend any time caring about my car or cars in general.

...do you care about your life?

Not actively, no. I have other things to do. I'm too busy experiencing and enjoying my life to spend my time "caring" about it. Moreover, as noted above, if anything, I care about the quality of my life, or "comfort" as someone else put it, more so than just "my life".

But in any case, what does "caring about my life" have to do with "caring about being alive" or "caring about not dying"? The life that I'm living and that I might be said to care about is not the same as (or is much much more than simply) "being alive" or "not dying".
 
As the quote I provided from Cabrera demonstrates, you can't say "life is great because you need life to be happy," because it's just as vacuous as "life is bad because you need life to be sad." You will never convince anybody, unless they already agree with you about the relative balance of good and bad in the world.

You keep adding subtle changes that drastically change what I say. See what I put in bold.

I did not say or even imply such a thing. I would say that life is more important than happiness because one needs to be alive to be happy.

Everybody wants to live, but that's not because we consciously decide every day, "I want to eat some cereal this morning. To eat cereal, I must be alive. Therefore, I will not kill myself." Our desire to live is pre-cognitive, for the most part. We are driven by an impulse older than mammals: custodient migremus. Keep movin' on.

So, winning over support for quitting one's job and becoming a life-extensionist of some sort won't be accomplished by rational argumentation. Our need to preserve ourselves isn't rationally grounded.

In my wildest dreams, the endgame of having total control over our biology would extend to our neurology as well. Gradually, we would eliminate the factors that lead to aging, decrepitude, and susceptibility to disease. Then, we would turn our attention to the brain, and remove all of the glandular secretions that are responsible for our basest qualities. We would no longer feel social anxiety or sexual guilt. Those pesky emotional attachments to family and friends, forged over millennia of kin selection in the Savannah, were clouding our critical faculties all along. Once discarded, nobody would feel grief after a breakup. Nobody would cry at a funeral. So far, it would appear that wrestling control of our mental state from our biological overlords is a good thing. However, along the way, we would engineer ourselves to no longer care about genetic survival. The very technology that enabled us to live perpetually would be responsible for taking away the urge to custodient migremus. Eventually, we'd have perfected the human mind to the point that no-one ever needed to "fill a void" in their life, because the Darwinian instincts that made us think that way were rewired. People would stop pursuing new goals and projects, and just be content with what they have. Without boredom or ennui, we'd cease to be interested in obtaining more and more things to distract us. In short, total control over our psychology could render us incapable of caring about whether we live or die. That worry was just one of the many concerns that made life miserable for Humans 1.0: constantly seeking the approval of others, antipathy towards people outside your group, selective memory, confirmation bias... visceral fear of death is no more logical than any of those tendencies, so why not hack into our processing and get rid of it, if we're already tinkering with biology?

Anybody who is really serious about changing our physical makeup will have to confront this possibility: that there is no absolute line between modifying our DNA so we live longer and modifying our neurotransmitters so we are unable to give a rat's ass about mortality.

We have to design and engineer what would work. We have to move towards what we want, and obviously we shouldn't if it means something even worse is bound to happen. We are going to make mistakes; we are not perfect. And we should be as careful as we can.
 
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Do you care about your car...

No, can't say that I do. I have a car, I take care of the car, but I don't spend any time caring about my car or cars in general.

You don't care about your car? You don't care if it doesn't run tomorrow? If not, then why give it an oil change? Doing so is caring about your car.

...do you care about your life?

Not actively, no. I have other things to do. I'm too busy experiencing and enjoying my life to spend my time "caring" about it. Moreover, as noted above, if anything, I care about the quality of my life, or "comfort" as someone else put it, more so than just "my life".
What if you can enjoy your life while caring about it?

Not many people enjoy working, but they do it so that they can enjoy their lives more. Let work stay at work, and do anything you want to do in the meantime.

But in any case, what does "caring about my life" have to do with "caring about being alive" or "caring about not dying"? The life that I'm living and that I might be said to care about is not the same as (or is much much more than simply) "being alive" or "not dying".
"about" is just a broader term that includes "for" in the context of "care about/for something".
 
I would say that life is more important than happiness because one needs to be alive to be happy.

One also needs to be alive to be miserable. Just "being alive" doesn't get you one or the other.

Yes, but most people who are miserable still choose to live. Even when I was at the worst part of my depression, I couldn't kill myself even though I wanted to at the time. I was lucky because I had hope. And even when I feel really depressed, I will think that I don't want to be alive, but then I remember that most of the time I do want to be alive and that the bad feeling will pass.

I am also lucky because I can take advantage of modern technology that has given me antidepressants. Without this technology, I probably would not have as good of a life, and I may not even be here.
 
No, can't say that I do. I have a car, I take care of the car, but I don't spend any time caring about my car or cars in general.

You don't care about your car? You don't care if it doesn't run tomorrow? If not, then why give it an oil change? Doing so is caring about your car.

No, giving my car an oil change is taking care of my car. I take care of my care because I need the car for transportation. But I don't care about my car in particular, or cars in general. Cars to me are just transportation. I'd just as soon not have a car, not need a car; for one reason that I'd no longer have to take care of a car.

BTW, if my car doesn't run tomorrow, I'll fix it or get another one. I'm not wasting time today worrying about the possibility.

What if you can enjoy your life while caring about it?

If I'm enjoying it, why would I waste time "caring about it"?

Not many people enjoy working, but they do it so that they can enjoy their lives more. Let work stay at work, and do anything you want to do in the meantime.

Sounds good to me. But how does agreeing with me help your position?

"about" is just a broader term that includes "for" in the context of "care about/for something".

If you are asserting that "caring about" something is the same as "taking care of" something, then a big "NO, it's not" is in order.

In any case, this does not address: "But in any case, what does "caring about my life" have to do with "caring about being alive" or "caring about not dying"? The life that I'm living and that I might be said to care about is not the same as (or is much much more than simply) "being alive" or "not dying"."
 
One also needs to be alive to be miserable. Just "being alive" doesn't get you one or the other.

Yes, but most people who are miserable still choose to live. Even when I was at the worst part of my depression, I couldn't kill myself even though I wanted to at the time. I was lucky because I had hope. And even when I feel really depressed, I will think that I don't want to be alive, but then I remember that most of the time I do want to be alive and that the bad feeling will pass.

I am also lucky because I can take advantage of modern technology that has given me antidepressants. Without this technology, I probably would not have as good of a life, and I may not even be here.

I'm glad for you.

But with all due respect, your last statement appears to cast at least a bit of doubt on your first statement.
 
You don't care about your car? You don't care if it doesn't run tomorrow? If not, then why give it an oil change? Doing so is caring about your car.

No, giving my car an oil change is taking care of my car. I take care of my care because I need the car for transportation. But I don't care about my car in particular, or cars in general. Cars to me are just transportation. I'd just as soon not have a car, not need a car; for one reason that I'd no longer have to take care of a car.

BTW, if my car doesn't run tomorrow, I'll fix it or get another one. I'm not wasting time today worrying about the possibility.
See below.

What if you can enjoy your life while caring about it?

If I'm enjoying it, why would I waste time "caring about it"?

Because if you enjoy life while caring for it, you may get more of it to enjoy because you cared for it. My argument supports a win-loose or a win-win outcome. Your argument only supports a win-loose outcome.

Not many people enjoy working, but they do it so that they can enjoy their lives more. Let work stay at work, and do anything you want to do in the meantime.

Sounds good to me. But how does agreeing with me help your position?

This whole thread I have been talking about replacing many people's jobs with this one. I don't know why you keep saying that I want people to spend time worrying about death. This is very frustrating and perplexing for me.

I work on this for about 8 hours per day. The rest of my day has nothing to do with life extension. It might come up in conversation once in a while, but for the most part I enjoy my life the way many people do.

"about" is just a broader term that includes "for" in the context of "care about/for something".

If you are asserting that "caring about" something is the same as "taking care of" something, then a big "NO, it's not" is in order.

From Oxford Dictionary I found care to be, "Serious attention or consideration applied to doing something correctly or to avoid damage or risk".

In any case, this does not address: "But in any case, what does "caring about my life" have to do with "caring about being alive" or "caring about not dying"? The life that I'm living and that I might be said to care about is not the same as (or is much much more than simply) "being alive" or "not dying"."

We generally care for things with value. We value our own lives. We can care for our own lives.
 
Yes, but most people who are miserable still choose to live. Even when I was at the worst part of my depression, I couldn't kill myself even though I wanted to at the time. I was lucky because I had hope. And even when I feel really depressed, I will think that I don't want to be alive, but then I remember that most of the time I do want to be alive and that the bad feeling will pass.

I am also lucky because I can take advantage of modern technology that has given me antidepressants. Without this technology, I probably would not have as good of a life, and I may not even be here.

I'm glad for you.

But with all due respect, your last statement appears to cast at least a bit of doubt on your first statement.

My point is that even miserable people still would rather live, and miserable people can also be happier because of technology.
 
What the hell is worse than death?
Fear of death, among various other fears, sorrows, frustrations, etc. Death isn't bad. Unpleasant feelings are bad. Unpleasant feelings are the source of anything in the universe that's supposedly bad.

The people at Lesswrong, a site run by a guy who shares your obsession with immortality and is actually a good enough writer to have developed a like-minded cult of personality around himself, like to say the map is not the territory. The way I see it, "bad" isn't part of the territory; it's just a label that we put on certain parts of the map that make us feel bad because of our evolved neural wiring. I'm what Lesswrong would call a proponent of wireheading. I think that the things we claim to value, like food, art, reproduction, being alive, etc., are just proxies for the feelings those things produce. If today's crude antidepressants and anxiolytics can be used to mitigate unpleasant feelings, then by the same token that you expect some miraculous future technology to conquer death, I think it's just as feasible (if not much much more so) that technological advancements could allow us to conquer unpleasant feelings.


I gave up on people on Talk Freethought a long time ago. I failed; I admit it.

What do you hope to achieve in this discussion, then?

The verdict is in: nobody wants to die, and nobody is going to do anything about it. I just have to accept this bewildering fact.

Everybody is already doing something about it. They're coping with it. The fact isn't bewildering in itself; it's your failure to understand other people that causes you to feel bewilderment at it. You don't have to just accept it. You could try to understand where people are coming from without dismissing them for being irrational. People are irrational, of course, but that doesn't mean they're unpredictable, inexplicable, or uncontrollable. Irrationality is something you can work with, if you figure out the patterns. Politicians, religious leaders, advertisers, writers, actors, directors, lawyers, etc. can work with people's irrationality instead of just complaining about it, and harness it to get what they want.

You seem pretty focused on the hard science, but your biggest obstacle(assuming what you want to achieve is even physically possible) is that not enough people are on your side. Get enough people working hard enough on the technical issues, and throwing enough money and policy decisions at the goal, and sooner or later, they'll be solved.

But getting enough people to work on the technical issues is not something you want to leave to chance. A disaster could destroy or seriously cripple human civilization while you're waiting for people to come around to your way of thinking. I mean, which advances faster-- the technology to save lives, or the technology to end lives? Do we have the ability yet to push a button and heal half a million people on the other side of the world? Is there as much demand for that as there is for the ability to push a button and kill those people?

So the way I see it, maybe you, or more people like you, should be studying marketing, PR, politics, etc.-- applied social science. More people like you should be putting serious effort into learning how to understand and engage people on an emotional level, not merely a logical level.
 
Fear of death, among various other fears, sorrows, frustrations, etc. Death isn't bad. Unpleasant feelings are bad. Unpleasant feelings are the source of anything in the universe that's supposedly bad.

The people at Lesswrong, a site run by a guy who shares your obsession with immortality and is actually a good enough writer to have developed a like-minded cult of personality around himself, like to say the map is not the territory. The way I see it, "bad" isn't part of the territory; it's just a label that we put on certain parts of the map that make us feel bad because of our evolved neural wiring. I'm what Lesswrong would call a proponent of wireheading. I think that the things we claim to value, like food, art, reproduction, being alive, etc., are just proxies for the feelings those things produce. If today's crude antidepressants and anxiolytics can be used to mitigate unpleasant feelings, then by the same token that you expect some miraculous future technology to conquer death, I think it's just as feasible (if not much much more so) that technological advancements could allow us to conquer unpleasant feelings.


I gave up on people on Talk Freethought a long time ago. I failed; I admit it.

What do you hope to achieve in this discussion, then?

The verdict is in: nobody wants to die, and nobody is going to do anything about it. I just have to accept this bewildering fact.

Everybody is already doing something about it. They're coping with it. The fact isn't bewildering in itself; it's your failure to understand other people that causes you to feel bewilderment at it. You don't have to just accept it. You could try to understand where people are coming from without dismissing them for being irrational. People are irrational, of course, but that doesn't mean they're unpredictable, inexplicable, or uncontrollable. Irrationality is something you can work with, if you figure out the patterns. Politicians, religious leaders, advertisers, writers, actors, directors, lawyers, etc. can work with people's irrationality instead of just complaining about it, and harness it to get what they want.

You seem pretty focused on the hard science, but your biggest obstacle(assuming what you want to achieve is even physically possible) is that not enough people are on your side. Get enough people working hard enough on the technical issues, and throwing enough money and policy decisions at the goal, and sooner or later, they'll be solved.

But getting enough people to work on the technical issues is not something you want to leave to chance. A disaster could destroy or seriously cripple human civilization while you're waiting for people to come around to your way of thinking. I mean, which advances faster-- the technology to save lives, or the technology to end lives? Do we have the ability yet to push a button and heal half a million people on the other side of the world? Is there as much demand for that as there is for the ability to push a button and kill those people?

So the way I see it, maybe you, or more people like you, should be studying marketing, PR, politics, etc.-- applied social science. More people like you should be putting serious effort into learning how to understand and engage people on an emotional level, not merely a logical level.

Thanks, I really appreciate the feedback.
 
I'm what Lesswrong would call a proponent of wireheading.
Wireheading reminds me of "The Machine Stops", for various reasons. I used to be a proponent of it (the hedonistic imperative)- divorce the mind from reality, create permanent pleasure, but I think it's better to have many minds who share experiences and care for one another in addition to having bliss.

Wouldn't want to come to one day and realize there is no life in the universe but you, because you've wireheaded all consciousness away, ehh, ehh, ehh?
 
I'm what Lesswrong would call a proponent of wireheading.
Wireheading reminds me of "The Machine Stops", for various reasons. I used to be a proponent of it (the hedonistic imperative)- divorce the mind from reality, create permanent pleasure, but I think it's better to have many minds who share experiences and care for one another in addition to having bliss.
I don't. Any unpleasant feelings that may result from an absence of other minds(eg loneliness, boredom) could simply be wireheaded away.

I suppose it's worth noting that I'm not a conventional hedonist. I lean heavily towards negative utilitarianism, which prioritizes the minimization of pain over the maximization of pleasure.

Wouldn't want to come to one day and realize there is no life in the universe but you, because you've wireheaded all consciousness away, ehh, ehh, ehh?
Why not? The only thing I dislike about that scenario is the fact that my own consciousness isn't among those that have been wireheaded away. I very much like the idea of all minds in the universe wireheading ourselves to a peaceful death. Omnieuthanasia, one might call it.
 
I have this fear that wireheading will result in a class divide, in which there are exploitative wireheads that permanently enslave the rest of the population to their own pleasure, only emerging from the wire for situations that require their attention.

I tend to think that someone who has a child that they care about would never allow this to happen.
 
I have this fear that wireheading will result in a class divide, in which there are exploitative wireheads that permanently enslave the rest of the population to their own pleasure, only emerging from the wire for situations that require their attention.

I tend to think that someone who has a child that they care about would never allow this to happen.

There are lot of things in this World that should never have been allowed to happen, yet not only have they been allowed to happen, but generally accepted as a 'normal' state of affairs....maybe an occasional ''tut tut, how sad'' as a protest against some wrong.
 
There are lot of things in this World that should never have been allowed to happen, yet not only have they been allowed to happen, but generally accepted as a 'normal' state of affairs....maybe an occasional ''tut tut, how sad'' as a protest against some wrong.
How melancholy.
 
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