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Our genes say we must soon die. I say they are not the masters.

I don't wanna die either. Yet, prolonging my life through science isn't a top priority for me, because of the cost/benefit ratio. I want to maximize the percentage of goodness over the course of my existence. If I consume my time researching life extension technology, that's time that could have been spent listening to music or having a beer. In the end, my research efforts may get me an extra decade or so, or worse, nothing at all. That's what I truly fear: being out-of-time and realizing I had squandered it. In my wildest dreams, I could get an extra hundred years. But that's so unlikely that I don't want to risk devoting my "natural" life to running after it. I think that someone who has a great childhood and is instantly crushed by a falling rock at age 10 could've done a lot worse for himself, compared to somebody with a miserable, fearful life who managed to make it to 213 years before croaking.
 
Julio Cabrera has this to say about the topic (emphasis mine):

On the usual reflective context, when it comes to studying the question of what is the sense in which death could be considered bad, one considers only the moment of death, as if death was not part of life, but something ontologically external. They say things like: “Life is good, it is a pity we have to die” without seeing that if it is a pity that we have to die, then life is not good, since life brought death with it, or rather, they are one and the same thing. But understanding this is already going out of death as punctual to structural, to the constitutive “mortality” of being. When one says: “Death is bad because it deprives us of the good things of life”, the meaning is to give a privative sense to death, as if life were positive, without seeing that life carries the negative with it. From this tendency to see death as “bad”, this opportunity is taken to formulate, by opposition, the idea of the “goodness” of life: if death is bad, and life is the opposite of death, then life must be good.

But, what sense could this statement have? Clearly only an empirical sense: “Death is bad because it deprives us of worldly goods." Here, the moment of death is the only thing that is considered, as literal interruption of goods such as perception, movement, performing tasks, desire, etc. But to avoid an unjustifiable affirmative asymmetry, it should be answered back that, in the same way, one could say that “Death is good because it frees us from the evils of life” if we continue to understand death only as punctual, and if we think of worldly evils as deception, treachery, aggression, disease, wars, etc., from which death frees us. Since the world is, in the empirical view, an alternation of goods and evils, death may be called “good” or “bad” as we consider as depriving of the former or as freeing from the latter. If death is good (for freeing us from the worldly evils) and life is the opposite of death, then life must be bad.

But I do not think this is the correct line of argument. The lack of value of life cannot be shown in this purely empirical manner, because one cannot escape from total symmetry in what I like to call the “seesaw vision”, or the “one day the sun shines, the other one it rains vision”. If death is understood as merely the moment of death, and life just as worldly, with its mixture of goods and evils, there is no way of breaking the tie or overcoming the seesaw vision. It seems to me that the right way is to consider the issue of the value of human life also considering structural death, the mortality of being. If we use this other dimension of death, it could not have any sense to say that “life is good, but dying is bad” (the usual tendency), nor the opposite, that “life is bad, and therefore death is good”, given that, structurally seen, death is inside the living, it is inseparable from it, living is internally mortal, mortality has emerged along with the being itself, it is the very being of being.

In the structural domain of death, it is therefore absurd to say that being born (have emerged) is good but having to die is bad, because death came along with the being so inseparable and constitutive, not as a passing event, but in its own structure. Being born is being placed on the mortality of being, so that if death is, for some reason, considered bad, then having emerged should also be bad, or both things should be good (or, as the agnostic claims, neither good nor bad), but in no case it could be argued some asymmetry in favor of one side or the other. Regretting having to die should be structurally identical to regretting being born, because it is not in our power being born in a non-mortal way.

Cabrera does not consider prolonging life to be a solution to this problem, unless it is literally infinite. Anything short of eternal life is still mortality, and still is infused with the "structural" death.
 
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

But in your "I don't wanna die!" case this one would be more appropriate:

:hobbyhorse: :hobbyhorse: :hobbyhorse:

I gave up on people on Talk Freethought a long time ago. I failed; I admit it.

OK, so not many if any here share your obsession with extending life. Learn to live with it.

The verdict is in: nobody wants to die, and nobody is going to do anything about it. I just have to accept this bewildering fact.

This obsession to "do something about it" is your hobbyhorse. Ride it into the ground, beat it with a stick, do whatever you want. As for me, I'll just go fly-fishing and enjoy myself, make the best of what I've got and be glad in it.
 
I don't wanna die either. Yet, prolonging my life through science isn't a top priority for me, because of the cost/benefit ratio. I want to maximize the percentage of goodness over the course of my existence. If I consume my time researching life extension technology, that's time that could have been spent listening to music or having a beer. In the end, my research efforts may get me an extra decade or so, or worse, nothing at all. That's what I truly fear: being out-of-time and realizing I had squandered it. In my wildest dreams, I could get an extra hundred years. But that's so unlikely that I don't want to risk devoting my "natural" life to running after it. I think that someone who has a great childhood and is instantly crushed by a falling rock at age 10 could've done a lot worse for himself, compared to somebody with a miserable, fearful life who managed to make it to 213 years before croaking.

I am saying that more people (not everyone) should do this as their jobs instead of what they're doing now. Work is work 8 hours a day, and we should balance that out with other aspects of life; do whatever you want in the meantime. We all have to work at something or else we feel bored, depressed, unfulfilled, useless, lazy, unaccomplished, agree?

I don't know what your work is, but I will bet that you could find a job just as interesting if not more interesting in following fields: biotechnological research (biomedical engineering, physical engineering nanotechnology in condensed matter physics, genetic engineering research, etc), computational biological research, biological research, chemical research, research in artificial organ, artificial organ engineering, neurology, etc.

So much energy, time, money and intelligence is wasted on garbage that actually hurts humanity or doesn't do very much for it at all. The paradigm must change though. To do this it must start with the powers of the world and the common everyday people.

Or as a hobby, you could study to learn what effects this will have on society so that we can foresee as many emergent problems as possible.

Think of ways to expand the space industry to give humanity a better chance at surviving if overpopulation occurs.
 
I gave up on people on Talk Freethought a long time ago. I failed; I admit it.

OK, so not many if any here share your obsession with extending life. Learn to live with it.

The verdict is in: nobody wants to die, and nobody is going to do anything about it. I just have to accept this bewildering fact.

This obsession to "do something about it" is your hobbyhorse. Ride it into the ground, beat it with a stick, do whatever you want. As for me, I'll just go fly-fishing and enjoy myself, make the best of what I've got and be glad in it.

Like I told PyramidHead, it doesn't mean that you stop or change anything except for your job. People can still do things that you enjoy; it's what some of them do for work that should change.

Don't you want to fly fish on another planet one day?
 
My parents are the typical baby boomers that are retired with nothing to do. They are constantly working in their yard, shovelling the driveway or working on another part of the house, and they usually complain about it. I asked them why they don't just move into a condo to save all of these hassles. They said that they need to work and keep busy. And even though they don't care about the chores that they do, they do them anyways as a sense of accomplishment, productivity, exercise etc. They do work that they don't necessarily care about; they could be working on more important stuff like what I am talking about to feel productive.
 
OK, so not many if any here share your obsession with extending life. Learn to live with it.

The verdict is in: nobody wants to die, and nobody is going to do anything about it. I just have to accept this bewildering fact.

This obsession to "do something about it" is your hobbyhorse. Ride it into the ground, beat it with a stick, do whatever you want. As for me, I'll just go fly-fishing and enjoy myself, make the best of what I've got and be glad in it.

Like I told PyramidHead, it doesn't mean that you stop or change anything except for your job. People can still do things that you enjoy; it's what some of them do for work that should change.

Well GEEZ, Ryan, I've worked in Space Life Sciences and in Cytogenetics...what job do you have in mind for me???

Don't you want to fly fish on another planet one day?

I'm not sure the fishing would be any better there than in my local rivers...

My point is not that these areas aren't interesting and that people shouldn't work in these areas; it's that you come across as obsessed about this topic, and your repeated demands that pretty much everyone else should share your obsession (and find jobs in particular fields) are way off-base. It's your hobby horse; you ride it, and quit whacking other people with it.
 
OK, so not many if any here share your obsession with extending life. Learn to live with it.

The verdict is in: nobody wants to die, and nobody is going to do anything about it. I just have to accept this bewildering fact.

This obsession to "do something about it" is your hobbyhorse. Ride it into the ground, beat it with a stick, do whatever you want. As for me, I'll just go fly-fishing and enjoy myself, make the best of what I've got and be glad in it.

Like I told PyramidHead, it doesn't mean that you stop or change anything except for your job. People can still do things that you enjoy; it's what some of them do for work that should change.

Well GEEZ, Ryan, I've worked in Space Life Sciences and in Cytogenetics...what job do you have in mind for me???
Well it looks like you already did what I want people to do. So why would you think this applies to you?

What made you go into that field?

Don't you want to fly fish on another planet one day?

I'm not sure the fishing would be any better there than in my local rivers...

My point is not that these areas aren't interesting and that people shouldn't work in these areas; it's that you come across as obsessed about this topic, and your repeated demands that pretty much everyone else should share your obsession (and find jobs in particular fields) are way off-base. It's your hobby horse; you ride it, and quit whacking other people with it.
You seem to be speaking for everyone. This is your opinion.
 
:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

But in your "I don't wanna die!" case this one would be more appropriate:

:hobbyhorse: :hobbyhorse: :hobbyhorse:

I gave up on people on Talk Freethought a long time ago. I failed; I admit it.

The verdict is in: nobody wants to die, and nobody is going to waste the brief time they do have in the futile effort to do anything about it. I just have to accept this bewildering fact.

Fixed that for you. Not bewildering at all, really.
 
Why :banghead: isn't :banghead: gaining :banghead: control :banghead: over :banghead: our :banghead: lives :banghead: a :banghead: bigger :banghead: deal :banghead: to :banghead: everyone???!!!

Work is being done on the issue of longevity. There have been claims that within the next ten years science will have developed the ability to extend the human life span to hundreds of years. That's probably a bit optimistic, but then, it's probably just a matter of time. When it happens, there are the problems of the cost of treatment, who gets the treatment, the consequent population increase when people are living for hundreds of years, and so on.
 
I gave up on people on Talk Freethought a long time ago. I failed; I admit it.

The verdict is in: nobody wants to die, and nobody is going to waste the brief time they do have in the futile effort to do anything about it. I just have to accept this bewildering fact.

Fixed that for you. Not bewildering at all, really.

I am talking about doing this as a career. Since we have to work anyways, why not work in this area?

Most of the people I know work about 8 hours per day, and I promise you that they only do this for money. Why not make money doing something that potentially has a much greater benefit?
 
Why :banghead: isn't :banghead: gaining :banghead: control :banghead: over :banghead: our :banghead: lives :banghead: a :banghead: bigger :banghead: deal :banghead: to :banghead: everyone???!!!

Work is being done on the issue of longevity. There have been claims that within the next ten years science will have developed the ability to extend the human life span to hundreds of years. That's probably a bit optimistic, but then, it's probably just a matter of time. When it happens, there are the problems of the cost of treatment, who gets the treatment, the consequent population increase when people are living for hundreds of years, and so on.

In the first 30 years of my life, I didn't know one person who does this. The fraction of people working towards this is shockingly small.
 
Fixed that for you. Not bewildering at all, really.

I am talking about doing this as a career. Since we have to work anyways, why not work in this area?

Most of the people I know work about 8 hours per day, and I promise you that they only do this for money. Why not make money doing something that potentially has a much greater benefit?

You seem to assume that everyone has the aptitude and ability for this, which is unlikely; and that they have control over their career path, which for many people is even more unlikely (my career path was determined far more by what it enabled me to do outside work than by what I do when at work - I work to live, I don't define myself by my work, so the most important consideration for me when seeking work is that the hours and location suit my lifestyle); and that we should for some reason all share your personal obsession, which is just silly.

Your obsession is less unhealthy than some; but it would be a good idea if you were to recognise that it is personal to you - the oddity is not that others don't have it, but that you do. This means that you risk alienating others; whether that is OK is up to you to decide, but I think it's best if it is an informed decision.
 
I am talking about doing this as a career. Since we have to work anyways, why not work in this area?

Most of the people I know work about 8 hours per day, and I promise you that they only do this for money. Why not make money doing something that potentially has a much greater benefit?

You seem to assume that everyone has the aptitude and ability for this, which is unlikely; and that they have control over their career path, which for many people is even more unlikely (my career path was determined far more by what it enabled me to do outside work than by what I do when at work - I work to live, I don't define myself by my work, so the most important consideration for me when seeking work is that the hours and location suit my lifestyle); and that we should for some reason all share your personal obsession, which is just silly.

Your obsession is less unhealthy than some; but it would be a good idea if you were to recognise that it is personal to you - the oddity is not that others don't have it, but that you do. This means that you risk alienating others; whether that is OK is up to you to decide, but I think it's best if it is an informed decision.

This is not an obsession; it's very important. It's literally a matter of life and death. It means life for people and their loved ones; for most people, there is nothing more important than these two things. It is irrational not to do this.

If many more people would just put aside their career paths for now, we may just see this happen in the next 15 years.
 
You seem to assume that everyone has the aptitude and ability for this, which is unlikely; and that they have control over their career path, which for many people is even more unlikely (my career path was determined far more by what it enabled me to do outside work than by what I do when at work - I work to live, I don't define myself by my work, so the most important consideration for me when seeking work is that the hours and location suit my lifestyle); and that we should for some reason all share your personal obsession, which is just silly.

Your obsession is less unhealthy than some; but it would be a good idea if you were to recognise that it is personal to you - the oddity is not that others don't have it, but that you do. This means that you risk alienating others; whether that is OK is up to you to decide, but I think it's best if it is an informed decision.

This is not an obsession; it's very important. It's literally a matter of life and death. It means life for people and their loved ones; for most people, there is nothing more important than these two things. It is irrational not to do this.

If many more people would just put aside their career paths for now, we may just see this happen in the next 15 years.

The bolded text is evidence that the first sentence is not correct.

When you think that a very large number of people should stop doing what they have chosen to do, and should instead immediately start work on a project you have chosen for them, that is obsessive behaviour.
 
This is not an obsession; it's very important. It's literally a matter of life and death. It means life for people and their loved ones; for most people, there is nothing more important than these two things. It is irrational not to do this.

If many more people would just put aside their career paths for now, we may just see this happen in the next 15 years.

The bolded text is evidence that the first sentence is not correct.

When you think that a very large number of people should stop doing what they have chosen to do, and should instead immediately start work on a project you have chosen for them, that is obsessive behaviour.

"chosen for them", what the hell are you talking about? I am giving my case for why they should do this.

What exactly did I say in my last post that you don't agree with, and please keep it in context?
 
The bolded text is evidence that the first sentence is not correct.

When you think that a very large number of people should stop doing what they have chosen to do, and should instead immediately start work on a project you have chosen for them, that is obsessive behaviour.

"chosen for them", what the hell are you talking about? I am giving my case for why they should do this.

What exactly did I say in my last post that you don't agree with, and please keep it in context?

I thought I made it very clear; I disagree with your first sentence - "This is not an obsession".

Your subsequent sentences are good evidence for why this first sentence is apparently incorrect.

I understand that you think they should do this; but I suspect you are failing to understand why they do NOT think that they should. The reasons for that is that they have other concerns in their lives - they do not share your obsession.
 
us said:
y: It is no more justifiable to overwrite a copy with an update to match it to your recent experience; or to delete or switch off an unwanted copy, than it is to harvest organs from your identical twin.

0: Nobody said the copy has to be operationalized while you're still functional. It's just backup data, no more alive than a photograph.

y: If the stored information is sufficient to model a person, then it is a person. Perhaps one 'Frozen' to be reanimated later, but a person nonetheless.

0: What makes a petabyte of iron oxide any more of a person than a frozen embryo?

y: An embryo contains the information to construct 'a' mind, but not any specific individual's mind.

0: Say what? The baby an embryo will grow into if unfrozen and implanted isn't a specific individual?

y: Not one that already existed, no.
So when you wrote "If the stored information is sufficient to model a person, then it is a person.", what you meant was "If the stored information is sufficient to model a specific individual who already existed, then it is a person."? And you propose that whether a sample of iron oxide has rights depends on that hair-splitting criterion? Whether something currently has a right to not be destroyed depends on how the universe used to be, rather than on how the universe is now?

In practice, this sort of uploaded data will never be sufficient to model a person who actually existed, since the brain-scanning step in the uploading process will surely never be made infinitely accurate. So if you want to get technical about it, every such file of stored information will be a model of a person who never existed, just as a frozen embryo is. How many transcription errors would you tolerate before you'd define the iron oxide as rightless due to its modeling a hypothetical different person instead of modeling an actual person who already existed?

Well, presumably the person setting up the collection of backup copies will also have set up some mechanism whereby if he ever stops sending "I'm still alive" messages to the database then it will do some due diligence and if satisfied that the original is gone for good then it will construct a robot body and download one of the backup copies into it.

How? What materials will it use, and what will its energy source be, at the heat death of the universe? How can the database itself even still exist at that point in time?
Heat death is a pre-big-bang concept derived from extrapolating the future of a closed system with fixed boundaries. A perpetually expanding universe never reaches thermal equilibrium.

Sweet. We have practically solved the entire problem of building a machine that can last forever without breaking down, and that can generate living brains with pre-recorded consciousnesses then :rolleyes:
This used to be an argument in which you were defending PyramidHead's contention that immortality is impossible, and I was defending ryan's contention that no good reason to believe it's impossible had yet been supplied. At what point did you decide we'd switched to arguing about whether it's going to be feasible with 21st-century technology?
 
"chosen for them", what the hell are you talking about? I am giving my case for why they should do this.

What exactly did I say in my last post that you don't agree with, and please keep it in context?

I thought I made it very clear; I disagree with your first sentence - "This is not an obsession".

Your subsequent sentences are good evidence for why this first sentence is apparently incorrect.

I don't think that "obsession" is the word you're looking for, maybe intrusive or presumptuous?

I understand that you think they should do this; but I suspect you are failing to understand why they do NOT think that they should. The reasons for that is that they have other concerns in their lives - they do not share your obsession.

So then why doesn't everyone feel this way towards Al Gore after An Inconvenient Truth (this is not actually a question because I know the answer. I just want to see if you do). He made people aware of what may happen if they don't change their concerns in their lives or at least reprioritize them.

Again, death of themselves, family and friends is usually people's biggest concerns. Sometimes someone else has to remind people what is important to them because we can easily get sidetracked and caught up with less important concerns.
 
Again, death of themselves, family and friends is usually people's biggest concerns. Sometimes someone else has to remind people what is important to them because we can easily get sidetracked and caught up with less important concerns.

Here again highlighting your obsession...with DEATH. It is not true for me, or for most people, that "death" is the biggest concern. I, for one, do not waste my time worrying about death.

You worry about death. As for me, I'll live my life.
 
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