Panderer in chief

[Keith&Co.]

You are defending her position.

No, i'm criticizing you. You got bupkes towards supporting the conclusion you're flogging.

I have more than you or those supporting these illegals have.

Nope.
You're just making shit up.
And you think the burden is on me to make more shit up, for a position I haven't taken.

 

[laughing dog]

But it explicitly is.

Nope.

Which can be brought up at any other forum or debate since none, literally none, of them are for whites only.

And this one is not for nonwhites only.

How is excluding whites from a presidential forum, even putting the racial exclusion in the very name, not racist?

Excluding whites would be racist, but that did not happen. Nor is there any indication that the forum is designed to exclude whites. On what factual basis are you basing your claim?

 

[ronburgundy]

Are raids the only means of enforcement?
I mean, if she wants to stop raids is that automatically dropping all forms of enforcement?

What other effective means do you have against a massive influx of illegals.
If it is known that large numbers of illegals are employed at some plant the logical course of action is to raid the plant, deport the illegals and arrest those who hired them.
.

I highlighted the effective action (prosecuting employers) and that can be done without a physical raid on workplaces, but Republicans refuse to seriously go after employers (because they white and rich).

Bush loved showy and expensive workplace raids but almost never prosecuted employers. Obama switched from a focus on raids to paperwork audits of employment forms, increasing them 1600% over Bush, and increasing actual findings and fines against employers by 25,000% (you read that number correct).
In fact, Clinton also went after employers, averaging 200-300 findings and millions in fines against employers each year for hiring illegals. A year after Bush took office, those number dropped to below 100 and averaged around 15 findings per year and less than $100k in fines. A year after Obama took office, he had those numbers back up to over 200 findings per year, increasing 100 every year up to 600 in 2014 with $10,000-$15,000 in per year fines.
BTW, these fines are not just punishment but help to actually cover the cost of enforcement, in contrast to very expensive raids that just arrest employees and recover none of the costs.

But your right, in addition to massive fines, they should throw these employers in jail. But given the Republicans unwillingness to even fine them, they will be the first to fight such efforts.

 

[Toni]

So, that's not what she's saying, but it is what you want to hold her responsible for saying...
Gosh, what a huge surprise in your chosen tactics, Derec.

So tell me, what other remedy other than these raids do you propose to get rid of this newest wave of Central American illegals that measure in 100s of thousands?
And if you do not get rid of them eventually they become eligible for this amnesty nonsense, which is the end-game for the far left - make US a hispanic majority nation as quickly as possible.

Because hispanic Americans are such devoted democrats?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

So tell me, what other remedy other than these raids do you propose to get rid of this newest wave of Central American illegals that measure in 100s of thousands?
And if you do not get rid of them eventually they become eligible for this amnesty nonsense, which is the end-game for the far left - make US a hispanic majority nation as quickly as possible.

Because hispanic Americans are such devoted democrats?

You need to remember that Hispanics have a tendency to be devoutly religious, and the Democrats have a lock on the devoutly religious (in the late 1800s).

 

[laughing dog]

And if you do not get rid of them eventually they become eligible for this amnesty nonsense, which is the end-game for the far left - make US a hispanic majority nation as quickly as possible.

Where in the world do you get such ridiculousness?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And if you do not get rid of them eventually they become eligible for this amnesty nonsense, which is the end-game for the far left - make US a hispanic majority nation as quickly as possible.

Where in the world do you get such ridiculousness?

Well, I believe Derec is an immigrant, so he must know about these things.

 

[fromderinside]

What other effective means do you have against a massive influx of illegals.
If it is known that large numbers of illegals are employed at some plant the logical course of action is to raid the plant, deport the illegals and arrest those who hired them.
.

I highlighted the effective action (prosecuting employers) and that can be done without a physical raid on workplaces, but Republicans refuse to seriously go after employers (because they white and rich).

Bush loved showy and expensive workplace raids but almost never prosecuted employers. A year after Bush took office, those number dropped to below 100 and averaged around 15 findings per year and less than $100k in fines. (fixed this for contrast)

Obama switched from a focus on raids to paperwork audits of employment forms, increasing them 1600% over Bush, and increasing actual findings and fines against employers by 25,000% (you read that number correct). In fact, Clinton also went after employers, averaging 200-300 findings and millions in fines against employers each year for hiring illegals. A year after Obama took office, he had those numbers back up to over 200 findings per year, increasing 100 every year up to 600 in 2014 with $10,000-$15,000 in per year fines.
BTW, these fines are not just punishment but help to actually cover the cost of enforcement, in contrast to very expensive raids that just arrest employees and recover none of the costs.

But your right, in addition to massive fines, they should throw these employers in jail. But given the Republicans unwillingness to even fine them, they will be the first to fight such efforts.

Hey Derec. That ^^^^^

 

[Derec]

Because hispanic Americans are such devoted democrats?

That is behind the hope to make the GOP demographically doomed due to huge increase in hispanic population, yes.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Because hispanic Americans are such devoted democrats?

That is behind the hope to make the GOP demographically doomed due to huge increase in hispanic population, yes.

Well, that's really more of the Republican plan than the Democratic one. The Dems are just taking advantage of all the GOP's hard work.

 

[Derec]

You need to remember that Hispanics have a tendency to be devoutly religious,

For now promises of amnesty are keeping hispanics largely in the D column. Of course the tactic may backfire in the future, however ...

and the Democrats have a lock on the devoutly religious (in the late 1800s).

Well they do have a 90% lock on the most religious demographic in the US - blacks.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

promises of amnesty

Source.

 

[SimpleDon]

If the problem was as simple as being illegal then the solution would be simple also, to repeal the law. It is only a class 3 misdemeanor, less serious in the eyes of the law than a speeding ticket or dumping household garbage in a National Park trash bin, which are class 2, more serious, misdemeanors. The law is never enforced because it is only a ticket and a promise to show up to pay a fine three months in the future.

But the fact that they have committed this lowest of all possible misdemeanors isn't the problem. The problem is that there are so many of them and that they depress the wages of the legal residents. And the previous efforts to seal the border have made the problem worse, not better. Making it hard to cross the border is what turned an annual seasonal migration of agricultural workers into illegals taking year round jobs and bringing their families with them because it is so hard to cross the border that they only want to do it once.

This is an economic problem, not one of criminality. There is a large number of people in Mexico who need jobs. Like the US, Mexico maintains policies to increase income inequality, to increase profits and to decrease wages. (Trump for example, believes that wages in the US are too high.) On this side of the border there are a large number of employers who want to pay substandard wages, so much so that they are willing to take the risk to hire illegals, which, not too surprisingly, is not illegal as long as they hire subcontractors who in turn, hire the illegals.

So it is an economic problem of supply and demand. Closing the border, even if it was possible, doesn't do anything to reduce either the supply or the demand. (Less than 50% of the illegals cross the Southern border.)

The solution to the problem has been made impossible because of the argument between the Establishment Republicans who created the problem because they want more immigration to force wages down and the nativists who want a return to a white America.

I think that I understand Clinton's and other's attitude toward the illegals. It is not hard if you aren't in either group above to feel at least a little bit sorry for the illegals in this country. They don't want to have to leave their country to have to find work to support their families. They don't want to have to risk their very lives to cross the border with a coyote. They don't want to live in constant fear of ICE. They are caught in the middle of all of this.


If you want someone to blame find someone in one of the two groups above or someone who consistently votes for Republicans who support these two groups.

 

[Derec]

promises of amnesty

Source.

"Path to citizenship" and "Dream Act". Same bullshit as under Reagan, different names.
Didn't work then (other than to increase influx of illegals). What makes anyone think it will have a different effect now?

 

[Derec]

If the problem was as simple as being illegal then the solution would be simple also, to repeal the law. It is only a class 3 misdemeanor,

Then we should make it more serious.
Besides, many illegals commit more serious crimes in the process. Oftentimes identity theft.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

 

[fromderinside]

Well they do have a 90% lock on the most religious demographic in the US - blacks.

Its a shame too that the republicans fettered that all away when they adapted to Nixon's southern strategy in the late '60s. After all it was a Republican who broke the yoke of slavery setting them free.

.... and here we are, yet again, watching republicans throw away the Hispanic vote by posing "keep them out", "send them back" strategy over solution of immigrant issues.

Kinda makes be want to waggle my index finger over my thumb.

 

[arkirk]

Are raids the only means of enforcement?
I mean, if she wants to stop raids is that automatically dropping all forms of enforcement?

What other effective means do you have against a massive influx of illegals.
If it is known that large numbers of illegals are employed at some plant the logical course of action is to raid the plant, deport the illegals and arrest those who hired them.

I guess what the Dem candidates want is to declare these newest illegals as "Dreamers" and just give them amnesty ...

I notice you like to lump Dem candidates together so neatly and also have no idea what pandering is. Your position has a name. That is Nativist, and could also be considered chicken littleism or Xenophobia on steroids. Something you do not seem to understand about human events...especially migrations...is that they have never been controlled or even slowed by raids and deportations and punishments. The immigrant is there as a natural human response to harsh events in the countries of origin. So often, these immigrants are running from actions corporate America has taken in their country of origin. This is particularly true in central American countries and would also be true for Arab countries if America were geographically contiguous with that area. Immigrants are poor people who don't have anything but the desire to live a good life. Along comes Trump and perhaps you and turns them into rapists, thieves and murderers. That my friend is xenophobia on steroids.

Hillary is politicking on these issues, not pandering. I detest the Clinton approach to politics because she has never said or done anything other than what her handlers tell her to. She would be a terrible president and probably get impeached for out Republicaning the Republicans. You seem to want to burn the innocent victims of international predatory capitalism and in that way you expect them to disappear. It ain't going to happen. You will learn what refugees are all about when we start to get climate refugees. I suppose you would accept letting these people when they come go back home the ocean. We must always attempt to encompass the entire human race with our ideas of civilization and stop trying to reinvent the "nigger."

 

[bleubird]

I may be wrong,but immigration from Mexico has been negative for a few years now.
All the mexicans I know are hard workers.They are good resource for the jobs fat ass Mercans will not do.

 

[Nice Squirrel]