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Parents horrified after priest used teen's funeral to condemn suicide

And this would be a fine argument IF they hadn't discussed the service with the priest beforehand and told them what they were looking for. If he was unwilling or unable to provide them with what they were looking for, the time to inform them of this was either in the initial meeting when they brought it up
I am guessing that he probably did. At least in his mind.

Of course, he would not have been so crass (or unmistakable) as to say, 'no fucking way.' He probably said softer things like, 'Well, you of course know the Church's position on suicide,' and 'I will keep that (your inputs) in mind when i write this up,' and 'he sounds like a good boy.' I am certain he made no actual commitment to their wishes. But they would have heard agreement, since that was what they were expecting, and they thought the priest was on their side.
 
Gotta say I agree with LionIRC again on this one, from the other side of the universe of course (I believe suicide is no less moral than any other act, and actually has a better chance of being moral than other acts if done for the right reasons). If you didn't want to be told that your dead son committed a sin by killing himself, don't ask the representative of an organization that regards suicide as sinful to give the keynote address at his funeral.

But I won't miss this opportunity to point out that, for all intents and purposes, Jesus committed suicide.
 
Well, I suspect that the oldest and most popular ones are worth more, so they should be sold off to pay the victims of sexual assault.
You know, that EXACT concern has come up before, here. At the annual Bishop's appeal, the uppity congregants would not donate unless thry got assurances that the money would go to charity, not to pay off child abuse lawsuits.
The silly people wanted lay oversight on the money raised and how it was spent.

The diocese response was essentially 'where the fuck do you think you stand on the totem pole?!'
 
Well, I suspect that the oldest and most popular ones are worth more, so they should be sold off to pay the victims of sexual assault.
You know, that EXACT concern has come up before, here. At the annual Bishop's appeal, the uppity congregants would not donate unless thry got assurances that the money would go to charity, not to pay off child abuse lawsuits.
The silly people wanted lay oversight on the money raised and how it was spent.

The diocese response was essentially 'where the fuck do you think you stand on the totem pole?!'

I really don't think that this should be a choice. The victims of their criminal behaviour should not end up getting less than they are owed because the Church is able to set things up so that they're able to say "Sorry, we're paying you out of this bank account here, which is now empty. You're not allowed any of the money we have in these other bank accounts that are full of cash".

If the congregants want to give to charity, they are free to give as much as they want to whatever charities they want. What they should not be free to do is get a subset of hte Church's cash set aside from legal judgments.
 
The bible condemns suicide.
But it reserves an even greater condemnation for those who would cause someone to feel suicidal.

Choose life!
https://www.beyondblue.org.au/the-f...Aj1wNQ2qh_elHynfB3a6EoGeEsAEJQSQaApmzEALw_wcB

https://www.lifeline.org.au

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org

So it condemns people like you?
#micdrop

I dunno LIRC is pretty amusing (in spite of himself). I don't think his posts would have enough sway with anyone to make them suicidal. ;)
 
Suicide ought to be condemned.

I don't know why people think the priest and The Church offer an a la carte menu of preferential options where you can vet what you do and don't hear.

If this funeral was for a victim of gun violence the priest might want to condemn guns.
It the funeral was for a 99 year old the priest might celebrate their long and happy life.

You don't get to 'shop around' for the sock-puppet priest who will say what you want.

How do you accept so easily this cult that prioritised retaining political power over protecting its children from its priests, and which in this case can't comfort grief because the priority is laying down the law?

I'm genuinely curious. This priest isn't a shepherd, he's a sadist.

I don't understand why people have such a hard time understanding this, but religious people actually believe the things they say the believe.

In the priest's head, he is acting like a shepherd. He is steering the flock away from eternal torture. Seriously. They actually believe this shit.

Of course, people who don't carry around a deranged set of moral prescriptions handed down by a bunch of sexually repressed virgins can recognize that usually suicide is a manifestation of what is fundamentally a sickness, and generally it is not something worthy of individual condemnation, it is not a moral failing but a tragic outcome.

Sometimes, it is even a noble and moral option.

And of course, as Lion rightfully points out, is is what you should expect to hear if you are a Catholic. I at least respect this priest for having the courage of his convictions and speaking honestly, as opposed to these parents, who have supported this set of ideas clearly without ever having given it a second thought. Not that I would point that out to them right now. Because I'm not an asshole.
 
And this would be a fine argument IF they hadn't discussed the service with the priest beforehand and told them what they were looking for. If he was unwilling or unable to provide them with what they were looking for, the time to inform them of this was either in the initial meeting when they brought it up
I am guessing that he probably did. At least in his mind.

Of course, he would not have been so crass (or unmistakable) as to say, 'no fucking way.' He probably said softer things like, 'Well, you of course know the Church's position on suicide,' and 'I will keep that (your inputs) in mind when i write this up,' and 'he sounds like a good boy.' I am certain he made no actual commitment to their wishes. But they would have heard agreement, since that was what they were expecting, and they thought the priest was on their side.

They thought, as the vast majority of religious adherents think, that their religion is fundamentally moral. I suspect that in their mind, there is little distinction between the religious and the moral. Of course, they probably never thought about any of this much at all. They enjoyed the community, the sense of the sacred, and the comforts afforded by the more benign aspects of it all. And of course, their whole lives they were told that this Church is the earthly home of some loving, fatherly God, and since they correctly intuited that their son isn't worthy of moral condemnation, they were shocked by the apparent contradiction.

Which probably should have been obvious before, but it's hard to shake a religious upbringing until you force yourself to really think about what you are purporting to believe, or life brings this sort of situation to the forefront.
 
Which probably should have been obvious before, but it's hard to shake a religious upbringing until you force yourself to really think about what you are purporting to believe, or life brings this sort of situation to the forefront.
And now, they either question the church, and their own relationship witlh it, or they decide the priest was rogue.
 
A bit like same-sex 'marriage'.
You don't just walk into the Catholic Church and tell them to redefine the sacrament to suit you.
These arent wedding cake bakers.

If memory serves there's no mention in the Catholic funeral service of suicide.

If he was prepared to go against the teachings of the church to the extent of officiating at the funeral of a suicide at all, he need not refer to the boy's manner of death. He could have just played it straight.

J842P makes a good point that he may have felt he was admonishing a receptive congregation. I think priests get so divorced from human feelings as to be unable to recognise the effects of their actions on others.
 
The bible condemns suicide.
But it reserves an even greater condemnation for those who would cause someone to feel suicidal.

Choose life!
https://www.beyondblue.org.au/the-f...Aj1wNQ2qh_elHynfB3a6EoGeEsAEJQSQaApmzEALw_wcB

https://www.lifeline.org.au

https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org

So it condemns people like you?

There's nothing in my pro-life paradigm or defense of biblical theism which devalues the life
of an atheist. If you feel suicidal because of your increasingly intense fixation on me
then you should get professional help.

Seriously dude, stay away from internet AvT fora if you're THAT affected by people with an opposite worldview.

For years and years I've received truckloads of anti-theist hate speech and never - not once - have I ever felt anything vaguely resembling a lack of self-worth.
 
Because - are you paying attention GenesisNemesis? - human life is not worthless.
Human beings are NOT the unintended meaningless byproduct of (atheistic) evolution.

ETA - and no, this is not true subject to whether or not an individual priest says so.
ETA - Did you hear the one about the atheists masquerading as clergy? Careful with the kiddy fiddler accusations. They trigger some people.
 
Because - are you paying attention GenesisNemesis? - human life is not worthless.
Human beings are NOT the unintended meaningless byproduct of (atheistic) evolution.
Neither of those points lead to the conclusion. You need to show your work.

Also, please clarify what you mean by "condemn", so you can't weasel out of it later.
 
Suicide ought to be condemned.

I don't know why people think the priest and The Church offer an a la carte menu of preferential options where you can vet what you do and don't hear.

If this funeral was for a victim of gun violence the priest might want to condemn guns.
It the funeral was for a 99 year old the priest might celebrate their long and happy life.

You don't get to 'shop around' for the sock-puppet priest who will say what you want.

LaCuesta took on the task of officiating at the funeral knowing (1) that the funeral was for a victim of suicide, and (2) the parents of the victim had provided detailed instructions on what he should speak about, and condemnation of suicide, or condemnation of the victim to a fiery afterlife, was NOT on the agenda. The right thing to do would have been to tell the parents that he could not abide by their wishes, so they could make other arrangements. LaCuesta did not do that. He took on this responsibility in bad faith, knowing fully well that he could not deliver the service the parents of the victim were asking for because he is a brain-dead robot, and his desire to proselytize about the beliefs of his faith was more important than the expressed wishes of the family.

This is what religion does to people. It takes good, otherwise compassionate and rational human beings and turns them into mind-fucked automatons whose only drive is to spread the disease. You yourself have told us that it is OK for Biblegod to euthanize all life on the planet because some people were behaving badly. Defending planet-wide genocide and LaCuesta's dishonest and cruel behavior are just noteworthy examples of this degenerate mindset.
 
The wrongness of suicide, for most people, is related to the value life is thought to inherently possess. It is regarded as a blessing and a gift to even have the opportunity to be alive in the first place, so how could anyone discard something so precious? A disinterested, neutral analysis of life does not support these assumptions, in my opinion. At the very least, life carries with it some inevitable and onerous obligations. Life is a situation where no action is seemingly exempt from causing harm to others.

From a Christian perspective, it would make sense if this were acknowledged and suicide were regarded as potentially noble and self-sacrificing in the very sense preached by Jesus. To put it more concretely, if all of my future actions are bound to cause harm, and I can prevent this harm by killing myself, the spirit of Christian ethics would seemingly hold such an act of total surrender of self-interest as exceptionally Christlike.

One imagines, for example, the prisoner of conscience who has been captured by enemy forces. They plan to torture her until she gives up the location of her friends and family. If she lies, they will continue torturing her until she tells the truth. She knows that there is a certain threshold of physical pain beyond which she will no longer be able to safeguard the information about her loved ones. In an act of defiance against her captors and for the sake of the others, she commits suicide, abandoning her self-interest totally and unconditionally in favor of preventing harm, in a scenario where all other options are exhausted.

I would think that Christians would regard her act as extremely praiseworthy, as it embodies all of the qualities that Christ emphasized most: putting others first, giving up everything, yielding to the welfare of your neighbor, not putting up a fight against your enemies.

But to most Christians, and especially Catholics, the reality is otherwise. Somehow it has been accepted that any behavior that results in a person ending his or her own life is a sin of deep offense, and will result in eternal damnation. I used to struggle to understand this. But now that I grasp somewhat how religions sprung up in response to economic realities and class struggles, it makes sense. Suicide is one of the most subversive acts someone can undertake if they are being exploited. Along with the usual invocations to regard the lawmakers and landowners of society as closest to heaven, the injunction against suicide in many religions was most likely a strategy of keeping servants alive as long as possible for their masters. The spirit of Christ's teachings are not reflected by it.
 
Because ... human life is not worthless.
Human beings are NOT the unintended meaningless byproduct of (atheistic) evolution.
I'm interested in the reasoning process too.

Why isn't human life worthless in and of itself?

Does a suicide mean the person believes his life is without value? Maybe he felt horrible at the wasted value of his life as he killed himself? Or maybe destroying something valuable was the point, to make people regret losing him?

What's the connection between being unintended and being worthless? Why can't unintended things be valued by anyone?

Isn't value in the minds of the valuers? If not, then where exactly?
 
Human life unfolds in ways that are deeply antithetical to the values made possible by being alive in the first place. Why not take someone at their word when they return the gift to its sender?
 
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