Partly defending Pascal's Wager? (only one popular eternal hell for non-believers)

[DBT]

Pascals Wager doesn't say much for the character of a God who condemns people on the basis of a lack of conviction when evidence is absent.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Pascal's Wager began talking about Christianity....

If you believe in Jesus/God:
Jesus/God exists - go to paradise forever
Jesus/God doesn't exist - time wasted, etc

If you don't believe in Jesus/God:
Jesus/God exists - go to hell forever
Jesus/God doesn't exist - nothing

A counter-argument is that there could be other hells depending on the god.... e.g. Islam, Mormonism, etc.

But I think in those other hells non-believers don't necessarily go there (Islam?, Mormonism) or hell isn't eternal (Jehovah Witnesses?)

A small number of Christians believe that most so-called Christians are going to hell (forever) - they can say this involves a religious "demon".... that still involves a form of Christianity...

I'd assume that the God that sends non-believers to hell would be somewhat well known in order to give people a chance - though I believe in a non-obvious God that is part of a simulation. I also believe that eternal hell (within a simulation) is impossible due to the way that simulations work - though it could last for the equivalent of a million years....

If the god who sends all unbelievers to hell is unknown then I don't think that can be factored into Pascal's Wager.

So besides in Christianity are you aware of any gods that send all non-believers to an eternal hell full of suffering?

The failure of Pascal's Wager is that it is in no way unique for Christianity. The same arguments can be used for any other number of religions.

 

[excreationist]

The failure of Pascal's Wager is that it is in no way unique for Christianity. The same arguments can be used for any other number of religions.

What other religions say that if you're not committed to that religion you'd definitely go to hell forever?

 

[skepticalbip]

The failure of Pascal's Wager is that it is in no way unique for Christianity. The same arguments can be used for any other number of religions.

What other religions say that if you're not committed to that religion you'd definitely go to hell forever?

Islam certainly does and I would assume any other religion that has a hell in its belief system.

 

[excreationist]

What other religions say that if you're not committed to that religion you'd definitely go to hell forever?

Islam certainly does

See post #5

According to Islam, are all non-Muslims going to hell?
The short answer is ‘No’.
.....
Here the Qur’an had a perfect moment to declare that Christians are condemned, but it chose instead to leave their fate to the will of God

Can you find a source that says that all non-Moslems are going to hell forever?

and I would assume any other religion that has a hell in its belief system.

Often belief systems that have a hell aren't forever (so it is more important to avoid eternal hells). And often non-believers who lived a good and moral life are saved from eternal hell.

 

[skepticalbip]

What other religions say that if you're not committed to that religion you'd definitely go to hell forever?

Islam certainly does

See post #5

According to Islam, are all non-Muslims going to hell?
The short answer is ‘No’.
.....
Here the Qur’an had a perfect moment to declare that Christians are condemned, but it chose instead to leave their fate to the will of God

Can you find a source that says that all non-Moslems are going to hell forever?

There has been a lot of apologists in the last couple decades trying to make Islam sound more acceptable to non-Muslims. But then there are many verses in my copy of the Quran that command Muslims to kill infidels who refuse to convert and several verses that declare that the fate of infidels will be to suffer in hell. .. try Surah 9:73 as one example.

ETA:
I could add that any Muslim who converted to Christianity to take advantage of your Pascal's Wager would be doubly cursed to hell according to the Quran, for being an apostate.

 

[excreationist]

There has been a lot of apologists in the last couple decades trying to make Islam sound more acceptable to non-Muslims. But then there are many verses in my copy of the Quran that command Muslims to kill infidels who refuse to convert and several verses that declare that the fate of infidels will be to suffer in hell. .. try Surah 9:73 as one example.

ETA:
I could add that any Muslim who converted to Christianity to take advantage of your Pascal's Wager would be doubly cursed to hell according to the Quran, for being an apostate.

Surah 9:73 says:
O Prophet! Struggle against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be firm with them. Hell will be their home. What an evil destination!

Perhaps Christians aren't necessarily "disbelievers".... ?

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62 Quran) With Tafsir - My Islam

Read Surah Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62) with translation. Included verse by verse commentary with tafsir for those looking to learn about this ayah in detail.

myislam.org

(2:62) Whether they are the ones who believe (in the Arabian Prophet), or whether they are Jews, Christians or Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do righteous deeds – their reward is surely secure with their Lord; they need have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

 

[Elixir]

So, any old god will do. But if you’re Sunni or Shia, that’s a whole other story, like Protestants and Catholics?

Anyhow, pascal can stick it. If there’s a god that wants me to believe it exists (or else!) it can bloody well do something to make sure I do. Not my fault (s)he/it gave me a brain.

 

[excreationist]

So, any old god will do. But if you’re Sunni or Shia, that’s a whole other story, like Protestants and Catholics?

Anyhow, pascal can stick it. If there’s a god that wants me to believe it exists (or else!) it can bloody well do something to make sure I do. Not my fault (s)he/it gave me a brain.

Well Jesus says only a few are saved....
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter God’s kingdom through the narrow gate. The gate is large and the road is wide that leads to ruin. Many people go that way. But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to life. Only a few people find it."

 

[Elixir]

So, any old god will do. But if you’re Sunni or Shia, that’s a whole other story, like Protestants and Catholics?

Anyhow, pascal can stick it. If there’s a god that wants me to believe it exists (or else!) it can bloody well do something to make sure I do. Not my fault (s)he/it gave me a brain.

Well Jesus says only a few are saved....
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter God’s kingdom through the narrow gate. The gate is large and the road is wide that leads to ruin. Many people go that way. But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to life. Only a few people find it."

Sorry. That’s a book that “says” that.
It’s not a magic book. It’s a book. A collection of stories.
Jesus doesn’t write any part of it, even according to it.
Or, look at it this way - in the sim in which you are immersed, it is one of those rooms that has endless corridors running off it. But once you enter that room, no matter what corridor you choose it leads you right back to the room. Every corridor is dressed up to look like it might conceal the Ultimate Shortcut to Where You Want To Be, but at the end of the game, none of them does.

 

[excreationist]

Well Jesus says only a few are saved....
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter God’s kingdom through the narrow gate. The gate is large and the road is wide that leads to ruin. Many people go that way. But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to life. Only a few people find it."

Sorry. That’s a book that “says” that.
It’s not a magic book. It’s a book. A collection of stories.
Jesus doesn’t write any part of it, even according to it.

By "said" I meant Jesus apparently spoke that as part of the Sermon on the Mount.

 

[DBT]

There has been a lot of apologists in the last couple decades trying to make Islam sound more acceptable to non-Muslims. But then there are many verses in my copy of the Quran that command Muslims to kill infidels who refuse to convert and several verses that declare that the fate of infidels will be to suffer in hell. .. try Surah 9:73 as one example.

ETA:
I could add that any Muslim who converted to Christianity to take advantage of your Pascal's Wager would be doubly cursed to hell according to the Quran, for being an apostate.

Surah 9:73 says:
O Prophet! Struggle against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be firm with them. Hell will be their home. What an evil destination!

Perhaps Christians aren't necessarily "disbelievers".... ?

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62 Quran) With Tafsir - My Islam

Read Surah Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62) with translation. Included verse by verse commentary with tafsir for those looking to learn about this ayah in detail.

myislam.org

(2:62) Whether they are the ones who believe (in the Arabian Prophet), or whether they are Jews, Christians or Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do righteous deeds – their reward is surely secure with their Lord; they need have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Christians do not believe in Mohammad as the Prophet of God, nor in Islams version of God.

 

[Politesse]

There has been a lot of apologists in the last couple decades trying to make Islam sound more acceptable to non-Muslims. But then there are many verses in my copy of the Quran that command Muslims to kill infidels who refuse to convert and several verses that declare that the fate of infidels will be to suffer in hell. .. try Surah 9:73 as one example.

ETA:
I could add that any Muslim who converted to Christianity to take advantage of your Pascal's Wager would be doubly cursed to hell according to the Quran, for being an apostate.

Surah 9:73 says:
O Prophet! Struggle against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be firm with them. Hell will be their home. What an evil destination!

Perhaps Christians aren't necessarily "disbelievers".... ?

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62 Quran) With Tafsir - My Islam

Read Surah Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62) with translation. Included verse by verse commentary with tafsir for those looking to learn about this ayah in detail.

myislam.org

(2:62) Whether they are the ones who believe (in the Arabian Prophet), or whether they are Jews, Christians or Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do righteous deeds – their reward is surely secure with their Lord; they need have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Christians do not believe in Mohammad as the Prophet of God, nor in Islams version of God.

According to Muslim prophecy, they will in the end times when Isa comes to recollect the faithful that can yet be saved.

 

[skepticalbip]

..

There has been a lot of apologists in the last couple decades trying to make Islam sound more acceptable to non-Muslims. But then there are many verses in my copy of the Quran that command Muslims to kill infidels who refuse to convert and several verses that declare that the fate of infidels will be to suffer in hell. .. try Surah 9:73 as one example.

ETA:
I could add that any Muslim who converted to Christianity to take advantage of your Pascal's Wager would be doubly cursed to hell according to the Quran, for being an apostate.

Surah 9:73 says:
O Prophet! Struggle against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be firm with them. Hell will be their home. What an evil destination!

Perhaps Christians aren't necessarily "disbelievers".... ?

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62 Quran) With Tafsir - My Islam

Read Surah Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62) with translation. Included verse by verse commentary with tafsir for those looking to learn about this ayah in detail.

myislam.org

(2:62) Whether they are the ones who believe (in the Arabian Prophet), or whether they are Jews, Christians or Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do righteous deeds – their reward is surely secure with their Lord; they need have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Christians do not believe in Mohammad as the Prophet of God, nor in Islams version of God.

According to Muslim prophecy, they will in the end times when Isa comes to recollect the faithful that can yet be saved.

But Christians accepting Jesus as a deity (which is what Christianity is about) is a ticket to hell according to Islam. "There is but one god, Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." Jesus worship stomps all over that.

 

[Politesse]

..

There has been a lot of apologists in the last couple decades trying to make Islam sound more acceptable to non-Muslims. But then there are many verses in my copy of the Quran that command Muslims to kill infidels who refuse to convert and several verses that declare that the fate of infidels will be to suffer in hell. .. try Surah 9:73 as one example.

ETA:
I could add that any Muslim who converted to Christianity to take advantage of your Pascal's Wager would be doubly cursed to hell according to the Quran, for being an apostate.

Surah 9:73 says:
O Prophet! Struggle against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be firm with them. Hell will be their home. What an evil destination!

Perhaps Christians aren't necessarily "disbelievers".... ?

Surah Al-Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62 Quran) With Tafsir - My Islam

Read Surah Baqarah Ayat 62 (2:62) with translation. Included verse by verse commentary with tafsir for those looking to learn about this ayah in detail.

myislam.org

(2:62) Whether they are the ones who believe (in the Arabian Prophet), or whether they are Jews, Christians or Sabians – all who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and do righteous deeds – their reward is surely secure with their Lord; they need have no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Christians do not believe in Mohammad as the Prophet of God, nor in Islams version of God.

According to Muslim prophecy, they will in the end times when Isa comes to recollect the faithful that can yet be saved.

But Christians accepting Jesus as a deity (which is what Christianity is about) is a ticket to hell according to Islam. "There is but one god, Allah, and Mohammed is his prophet." Jesus worship stomps all over that.

Which is why Isa (Jesus) will come and preach the Qur'an to the faithful shortly before the end of all things. A necessary correction that the wise will hear and be saved. You really shoud read that book of yours, it really has all manner of interesting contents.

 

[DBT]

Is the Qur'an compatible with the New Testament? I would say not.

 

[Politesse]

Is the Qur'an compatible with the New Testament? I would say not.

Of course not, the New Testament is a disgraceful corruption of the true Book.

 

[DBT]

Is the Qur'an compatible with the New Testament? I would say not.

Of course not, the New Testament is a disgraceful corruption of the true Book.

The true book? What do you mean?

 

[excreationist]

Ok so Christianity and Islam can involve eternal hell for all non-believers.... perhaps there are no other religions that should be taken into account?

 

[Elixir]

Well Jesus says only a few are saved....
Matthew 7:13-14
“Enter God’s kingdom through the narrow gate. The gate is large and the road is wide that leads to ruin. Many people go that way. But the gate is small and the road is narrow that leads to life. Only a few people find it."

Sorry. That’s a book that “says” that.
It’s not a magic book. It’s a book. A collection of stories.
Jesus doesn’t write any part of it, even according to it.

By "said" I meant Jesus apparently spoke that as part of the Sermon on the Mount.

Apparently???? To whom is it “apparent “ that Jesus said anything? Here’s whatcha got:

You have a book that is attributed to certain humans who, after many re-compilations, edits and translations, are represented as having reported that one “Jesus” said ….

It doesn’t even qualify as hearsay.