Perception vs. Reality

[Gospel]

From Skeptic magazine.

How Informed are Americans about Race and Policing?

People with left-wing orientation grossly overestimated the number of unarmed black men killed by police in 2019. Why this large disconnect? Who is to blame? And what are the consequences of this spread of misinformation in society?

...and the right wing extremist shit cannons just keep on firing!

Can't address the OP, so just hand wave. Got it.

The report based on 27.17% of data amounts to a shoop da whoop over liberal-leaning people overestimating the number of black people killed in 2019. The OP is worth less than a hand wave.

 

[Derec]

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As to the other question of "% of people killed who are black", there is a different issue. Both liberals and conservatives greatly over estimate the % of Americans who are black as being 32%, which is about 2.4 times what is really is. That means if they think that blacks are no more likely to be killed (which is false), they would answer 32%. If they think blacks are twice as likely to be killed and/or their % of those killed is about double their % of the population (which is true), then they would answer about 64%. So, based on the fact that libs and conservatives equally over estimate the black population to be over double what it is, liberals are combining that wrong belief with the correct belief that blacks are over represented by double among those killed by cops, while conservatives are combining that wrong belief with the also wrong belief that blacks are either no more likely to be killed or only about 50% more likely.

There is likely little to argue against here. The OP's link "How informed are Americans..." about anything!

Blacks aren't getting murdered by the thousand by cops. That doesn't mean the cops are policing blacks like they police whites.

 

[laughing dog]

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That is an incredibly stupid graphic, since the issue is blacks killed by the police not white people.

 

[Gospel]

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If you've ever been around enough black people for a long enough time you'd have learned years ago that black-on-black crime has always been an issue in our neighborhood and we (the black people that care) go well out of our way to bring attention to it as well try to stop it. Unbeknownst to you, a part of the solution is creating opportunities where black people can avoid gangs/criminal lifestyles, to begin with. This leads us to folks like you who are quick to stand in the way by speaking about nothing but the negative regarding black people further fueling prejudice. If I'm not on your ignore list already this is a great time to add me. You've been warned.

 

[Worldtraveller]

The public's misconceptions and misapplications about statistics and risks is a well-known phenomenon even when the data is complete and accurate that goes well beyond this particular issue and partisan ideologies.

But the irony of a Trump supporter complaining about some people's ability to distinguish between reality and perception is overwhelming.

Irony is a lost art.

...but it's good for your blood.

 

[ronburgundy]

As to the other question of "% of people killed who are black", there is a different issue. Both liberals and conservatives greatly over estimate the % of Americans who are black as being 32%, which is about 2.4 times what is really is. That means if they think that blacks are no more likely to be killed (which is false), they would answer 32%. If they think blacks are twice as likely to be killed and/or their % of those killed is about double their % of the population (which is true), then they would answer about 64%. So, based on the fact that libs and conservatives equally over estimate the black population to be over double what it is, liberals are combining that wrong belief with the correct belief that blacks are over represented by double among those killed by cops, while conservatives are combining that wrong belief with the also wrong belief that blacks are either no more likely to be killed or only about 50% more likely.

There is likely little to argue against here. The OP's link "How informed are Americans..." about anything!

Blacks aren't getting murdered by the thousand by cops. That doesn't mean the cops are policing blacks like they police whites.

I'm unclear on how to interpret what you mean by "nothing to argue about here". Does "here" mean nothing to argue with in my post or in the OP article. IF the the latter, I disagree. Yes, Americans are uniformed in general, but the issue is whether the OP report is correct in implying that the results show liberals are less informed about the facts related to race and policing. One can arrive at a correct answer using wrong premises and assumptions, and one can be farther from the correct answer even though more of your assumptions were correct.

By analogy, If you are solving A x B = Y, and you first have to know what A and B are. Suppose that objectively A = 5 and B = 10. But Joe is very wrong about both and thinks A = 10 and B = 5. He will correctly say Y = 50 by accident, despite being completely wrong in his assumptions. In contrast Mary also wrongly thinks A = 10, but she correctly thinking B = 10. She will wrongly answer that Y = 100, over estimating Y, and yet she was more "informed" about the underlying facts used to estimate Y.

We know from other surveys that both libs and conservatives are starting with the wrong assumption that 32% of Americans are black (call it A in our analogy). Given that, what estimation of % blacks among those killed by cops (Y in our analogy) reveals being best informed about the relative rates of being killed by cops (B in our analogy)? The answer is what liberals said, around 60%, whereas conservatives can only say 37% while also believing blacks are 32% of the population, if they also wrongly believe that blacks are not more likely than whites to be killed by cops.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

From Skeptic magazine.

How Informed are Americans about Race and Policing?

People with left-wing orientation grossly overestimated the number of unarmed black men killed by police in 2019. Why this large disconnect? Who is to blame? And what are the consequences of this spread of misinformation in society?

...and the right wing extremist shit cannons just keep on firing!

Can't address the OP, so just hand wave. Got it.

This is your forum avatar, and you're wondering why people aren't going to take you seriously? Gee, I wonder why people are going to dismiss you. Go back to 4chan.

 

[Elixir]

Can't address the OP, so just hand wave. Got it

That’s not a hand wave, it’s a middle finger.
You don’t “got it”.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Critically, this data collection effort was established only recently in 2019, law enforcement participation is voluntary and, as of 2020, only 5,030 out of 18,514 federal, state and local law enforcement agencies have provided use-of-force data.

I wonder what the reason is for over two thirds of law enforcement to not disclose this data. Fatalities caused by law enforcement should be in the public domain. Also, this study would dismiss incidents like Philando Castile in its calculations.

18,514 law enforcement agencies? Police-caused deaths are in the ballpark of 1000/year.

In other words, most of those agencies have zero deaths. I would be very surprised if the non-reporting agencies were highly concentrated amongst the little places where nothing happened.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't blame slaves, but do you not see how BLM clinging to every police shooting black guy regardless of the justification can backfire?

Is BLM doing that because generally the narrative is

1) Person dies/is injured at the hands of the police
2) Police issue a public statement about the incident
3) Camera footage show the police are fucking lying

No. The general pattern is:

1) Black person dies/is injured at the hands of the police.
2) BLM goes nuts.

The highest profile cases are the ones where the police were in the wrong, but BLM always considers them to be in the wrong even when a reasonable examination of the facts says otherwise.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Because the data doesn't exist. As the report clearly stated, over two thirds of American law enforcement agencies refuse to provide any information on shootings. As well written and presented the report is, it's still fucking useless.

You don't need full info. All you need is number of people arrested, how many had guns and how many ended up dead.
Do it for black and white and you will find out that there is nothing that suggests that blacks are treated systematically different.
That's what was discussed in one of the previous discussions.

There's no need to look at how many had guns--guns aren't the only weapon.

The ideal math would be number of police encounters:number dead. We don't have that information, however, but we do have number arrested:number dead and that's a reasonable proxy for the situation especially as encounters that don't result in an arrest are extremely unlikely to result in the serious use of force.

This ratio shows a slight excess of white people being killed--but below the level of significance.

There's also another factor: Cities do not show the supposed racial bias in shootings. Rather, what we actually see is that cities with a lot of black people have more shootings, period--black or white.

 

[Patooka]

Critically, this data collection effort was established only recently in 2019, law enforcement participation is voluntary and, as of 2020, only 5,030 out of 18,514 federal, state and local law enforcement agencies have provided use-of-force data.

I wonder what the reason is for over two thirds of law enforcement to not disclose this data. Fatalities caused by law enforcement should be in the public domain. Also, this study would dismiss incidents like Philando Castile in its calculations.

18,514 law enforcement agencies? Police-caused deaths are in the ballpark of 1000/year.

In other words, most of those agencies have zero deaths. I would be very surprised if the non-reporting agencies were highly concentrated amongst the little places where nothing happened.

"You don't need to know the information because nothing bad happened", is not as great an argument you claim it to be. Also, how did you come about the figure of only 1000...fuckit, nevermind.

 

[Gospel]

I don't blame slaves, but do you not see how BLM clinging to every police shooting black guy regardless of the justification can backfire?

Is BLM doing that because generally the narrative is

1) Person dies/is injured at the hands of the police
2) Police issue a public statement about the incident
3) Camera footage show the police are fucking lying

No. The general pattern is:

1) Black person dies/is injured at the hands of the police.
2) BLM goes nuts.

The highest profile cases are the ones where the police were in the wrong, but BLM always considers them to be in the wrong even when a reasonable examination of the facts says otherwise.

This right here is true. The issue is BLM is the equivalent of saying all lives matter with the stipulation of staying on the current topic (black people). So they include even circumstances that may later be determined that a black person is in the wrong just to be safe. Put it this way, during the civil rights movement, the protesting was about black people having equal rights, do you think it would have made sense for white people to point out that some slaves were bad people (yes they were a thing) and that on a side note, our white women don't have voting rights what about them? CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT FOR ALL!

Let's just get the main issue addressed first then we can work the rest of the shit out. It's not like the police stopped shooting bad people or stopped locking bad people up because the BLM movement was speaking out. Where do you think the fuel to BLM kept coming from? Ya know those bad people they kept adding to their list of lives that matter that you're here expressing opposition to.

Edit: to clarify when I said yes they were a thing I was talking about bad black people who just straight up did not care about anyone (black or white) and I also didn't mean slaves as they were free from slavery at that time. I misspoke.

 

[atrib]

View attachment 32040

Some black people kill other black people. Therefore, it is acceptable for police officers to kill black people.

Your argument doesn't work, and we have been through this before. Police officers are paid to protect and serve the communities they work in, and have taken an oath to uphold the laws of the land. Common criminals have taken no such oath, nor are they paid to protect and serve the communities in which they live. The police serve under the color of the law, which gives them certain rights and privileges common citizens do not generally enjoy. For these reasons, police conduct should be held to a higher standard than the behavior of common criminals. You keep ignoring this point so you can continue to perpetuate your racist opinions.

 

[ZiprHead]

I don't blame slaves, but do you not see how BLM clinging to every police shooting black guy regardless of the justification can backfire?

Is BLM doing that because generally the narrative is

1) Person dies/is injured at the hands of the police
2) Police issue a public statement about the incident
3) Camera footage show the police are fucking lying

No. The general pattern is:

1) Black person dies/is injured at the hands of the police.
2) BLM goes nuts.

The highest profile cases are the ones where the police were in the wrong, but BLM always considers them to be in the wrong even when a reasonable examination of the facts says otherwise.

As was stated above, about 1000 people per year are killed by police. Assuming 3-400 of those people were black, were all 3-400 protested by BLM?

 

[Trausti]

View attachment 32040

Some black people kill other black people. Therefore, it is acceptable for police officers to kill black people.

Your argument doesn't work, and we have been through this before. Police officers are paid to protect and serve the communities they work in, and have taken an oath to uphold the laws of the land. Common criminals have taken no such oath, nor are they paid to protect and serve the communities in which they live. The police serve under the color of the law, which gives them certain rights and privileges common citizens do not generally enjoy. For these reasons, police conduct should be held to a higher standard than the behavior of common criminals. You keep ignoring this point so you can continue to perpetuate your racist opinions.

The number of unarmed people killed by police is insignificantly small. If you really cared about saving lives, you'd notice the things you're not supposed to notice.

Crime and Enforcement Activity in New York City

 

[laughing dog]

I don't blame slaves, but do you not see how BLM clinging to every police shooting black guy regardless of the justification can backfire?

Is BLM doing that because generally the narrative is

1) Person dies/is injured at the hands of the police
2) Police issue a public statement about the incident
3) Camera footage show the police are fucking lying

No. The general pattern is:

1) Black person dies/is injured at the hands of the police.
2) BLM goes nuts.

The highest profile cases are the ones where the police were in the wrong, but BLM always considers them to be in the wrong even when a reasonable examination of the facts says otherwise.

That would imply that there would be around 400 BLM protests per year. But the protests do not appear anywhere near that level. Which suggests your views are not based on fact.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

The number of unarmed people killed by police is insignificantly small. If you really cared about saving lives, you'd notice the things you're not supposed to notice.
]

The number of people who are harmed by Antifa is insignificantly small. If you really cared about saving lives, you'd notice the things you're not supposed to notice.

 

[Elixir]

The number of people who are harmed by Antifa is insignificantly small. If you really cared about saving lives, you'd notice the things you're not supposed to notice.

There is no evidence that right wing extremists give a flying fuck about saving anyone's life but their own. Hoping that they'll "notice" anything beyond the deprivations that they continually suffer due to the sub-humanity of people who don't look like them, is wishful thinking.