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Pluto reclassified as a planet.

If you're not interested in actually discussing the issue at hand, there are easier ways to say it.
Well, since I actually answered your question to me and gave reasons for my answer, whereas you just ignored what I wrote, it seems to me if anyone deserves to be accused of not being interested in discussion it's you. But in case what you're objecting to is that I didn't discuss what you said to Emily in post #67, keep in mind that you came late into this conversation. I already addressed Soter's classification back in post #36; since you weren't asking me about it I saw no reason to repeat myself. Sorry if you perceived that as non-discussion.

I see two problems with Soter's approach:

(1) "If Neptune had cleared its zone, Pluto wouldn't be there." -- Alan Stern, co-originator of the "clearing the neighborhood" concept.

(2) "We should not be coming up with a classification scheme based on what we desire to have in each classification." -- you

The new classification scheme appears to have been designed for the purpose of excluding Pluto.

Discuss.
 
Well, the official number of planets has dropped in times past as well. At one point the number was as high as 15. So we could say that there shouldn't be any problem with continuing the pattern from nine to eight.

At what point was the *official* number of planets 15?

Sorry for the delay, and boy am I embarrassed. I couldn't recall where I had read that number, and it took me some time to track the reference down. I finally found it and discovered that I was way off on the all-time high number of planets, which was not even close to fifteen.

It actually was half again more than that.

From the era of ancient Greece until 1543, the number of planets remained unchanged at seven. After Copernicus advanced the Sun-centered system, the number dropped to six, reached a peak of 23 with the discovery of a bunch of asteroids, dropped back to eight when the asteroids became a category of their own, went back up to nine with the discovery of Pluto in 1930, and fell back to eight in August 2006

--The Pluto Files by Neil Degrasse Tyson

As our understanding of our solar neighborhood has advanced, the number of planets has increased and decreased over time. For those willing to take a longer view, Pluto's demotion is neither new, revolutionary, nor counter-intuitive.
 
Air+Pirate+Pluto.jpg
 
I see two problems with Soter's approach:

(1) "If Neptune had cleared its zone, Pluto wouldn't be there." -- Alan Stern, co-originator of the "clearing the neighborhood" concept.

(2) "We should not be coming up with a classification scheme based on what we desire to have in each classification." -- you

The new classification scheme appears to have been designed for the purpose of excluding Pluto.

Discuss.

Number (1) is a quote from a person with very, very great interest in keeping Pluto a "planet". Also, Soter actually quantifies what "clearing its zone" means and that doesn't mean that Pluto wouldn't be there. Can you point to Soter's work and tell me what is wrong with his calculation for Neptune?

As for (2), if you follow Soter's work, you see that when quantified, his parameters show a distinct separation between the 8 major planets and everything else. By at least 2-3 orders of magnitude. Now, you can say that perhaps he has picked the parameters of interest in such a way to end up with 8 planets and Pluto not a planet, and that may be a fair point. But Soter's approach is by far the best I've seen at attempting to actually take a scientific, quantifiable approach to this question.

What do you think are the best parameters to use for classifying Solar System objects? Roundess/Mass (i.e., hydrostatic equilibrium) is certainly a reasonable one, as would composition and origin. The last one is probably a bit fuzzier than the others. I'm guessing with this approach we would have multiple kinds of objects: Gas giant planets (J, S, U and N), Terrestrial planets (M, V, E and M), Cerean objects (with Ceres as a planet, and the other main belt asteroids), KBOs (with Pluto and a few others as planets), Moons (some of which would be planets), comets (short-period and long-period) and Oort cloud objects. Then there are Trojan asteroids and other objects (like NEAs) that are "out of place" due to their interaction with other objects.

This approach doesn't make for a nifty mnemonic, but it's far more scientific than most of the Pluto-whining going on.
 
So? Tombaugh still discovered the first of the dwarf planets, and beat the other discoveries by decades. Why is that not worth telling?

Nope; Ceres was discovered 130 years before Pluto, so it is the first of the Dwarf Planets; it too was originally classified as a Planet, and then downgraded.

Pluto was somewhere between the 1,100th and 1,200th dwarf planet discovered; it's official asteroid number is 134,340, meaning there are 134,339 dwarf planets officially listed ahead of Pluto by the IAU.

Officially, Pluto is a complete non-entity amongst asteroids. Not first; not biggest; not furthest away; not closest; not first to be downgraded from planetary status; not really anything-est.

Sorry.

Wait. Are you making the claim that all asteroids are dwarf planets?
 
The following link addresses the definition of "dwarf planet" and an estimate on the number that may exist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dwarf_planet

But "asteroid" is not the same as "dwarf planet".

- - - Updated - - -

At what point was the *official* number of planets 15?

Sorry for the delay, and boy am I embarrassed. I couldn't recall where I had read that number, and it took me some time to track the reference down. I finally found it and discovered that I was way off on the all-time high number of planets, which was not even close to fifteen.

It actually was half again more than that.

From the era of ancient Greece until 1543, the number of planets remained unchanged at seven. After Copernicus advanced the Sun-centered system, the number dropped to six, reached a peak of 23 with the discovery of a bunch of asteroids, dropped back to eight when the asteroids became a category of their own, went back up to nine with the discovery of Pluto in 1930, and fell back to eight in August 2006

--The Pluto Files by Neil Degrasse Tyson

As our understanding of our solar neighborhood has advanced, the number of planets has increased and decreased over time. For those willing to take a longer view, Pluto's demotion is neither new, revolutionary, nor counter-intuitive.


This paper has a good history of the discovery of Solar System objects and the evolving definition of the word "planet":
Murzi, Mauro (2007) Changes in a scientific concept: what is a planet?
 
Number (1) is a quote from a person with very, very great interest in keeping Pluto a "planet".
You mean because he's with the Pluto mission? Fine. He's hardly the only one pointing out that there's a lot of junk out there in planets' orbits. There are 11,000 known near-earth asteroids. To redefine "planet", the IAU has to redefine "clear".

Also, Soter actually quantifies what "clearing its zone" means and that doesn't mean that Pluto wouldn't be there. Can you point to Soter's work and tell me what is wrong with his calculation for Neptune?
Nobody's saying there's anything wrong with his calculation; the issue is whether what he's calculating is an appropriate thing to use for deciding what's a planet. The IAU is doing violence to the meaning of the term. People using the word "planet" in assertions never intended to be making claims about ratios of object masses.

As for (2), if you follow Soter's work, you see that when quantified, his parameters show a distinct separation between the 8 major planets and everything else. By at least 2-3 orders of magnitude.
Over 4, actually. And he picked the middle of that gap -- 100 -- as the cutoff. So what do we do about solar systems that don't have that giant gap? When we find some other star that has a "dwarf planet" with mu=90 and "planets" with mu=150 and mu=50,000, we'll say there's a distinct separation between the dwarf planet and the planets?

And what do we say about objects with mu=1? 3 times clearer neighborhoods than our current dwarf planets; 24,000 times less clear than our planets; 100 times less clear than Soter's cutoff. Definite dwarf planets, I guess. Back around the time of the Late Heavy Bombardment, Uranus and Neptune shared an orbital zone, and may well have swapped positions. That means they both had mu about 1. So according to Soter's criterion, at that time they were both "dwarf planets", even though they were over 10 times the size of the Earth.

Now, you can say that perhaps he has picked the parameters of interest in such a way to end up with 8 planets and Pluto not a planet, and that may be a fair point. But Soter's approach is by far the best I've seen at attempting to actually take a scientific, quantifiable approach to this question.
Quantifiable, yes. Scientific, no. According to Wikipedia,

Clearly distinguishing "planets" from "dwarf planets" and other minor planets had become necessary because the IAU had adopted different rules for naming newly discovered major and minor planets, without establishing a basis for telling them apart.

That's not science. That's bureaucracy.

What do you think are the best parameters to use for classifying Solar System objects? Roundess/Mass (i.e., hydrostatic equilibrium) is certainly a reasonable one, as would composition and origin. The last one is probably a bit fuzzier than the others. I'm guessing with this approach we would have multiple kinds of objects: Gas giant planets (J, S, U and N), Terrestrial planets (M, V, E and M), Cerean objects (with Ceres as a planet, and the other main belt asteroids), KBOs (with Pluto and a few others as planets), Moons (some of which would be planets), comets (short-period and long-period) and Oort cloud objects. Then there are Trojan asteroids and other objects (like NEAs) that are "out of place" due to their interaction with other objects.

This approach doesn't make for a nifty mnemonic, but it's far more scientific than most of the Pluto-whining going on.
That's not bad, actually. If we simply abolish "planet" as a technical category, we can stop pushing the fiction that there's a natural hierarchical taxonomy, with terrestrial planets more closely related to gas giants than to asteroids. Is there anybody to whom Mars really seems more similar to Neptune than it is to Ceres? Sure, by adding up the masses of nearby bodies, Soter was able to discover something that Neptune and Mars share that Ceres lacks. But to have gone looking for such an arcane property in the first place just to resolve the IAU's inconsistent naming rules was wrongheaded from the get-go.
 
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