Police Misconduct Catch All Thread

[Rhea]

If the Second Amendment is to be anything other than a sick joke, then the possession of a fully working and loaded firearm by itself should not be an accepted excuse for any police officer to open fire.

It's not mere possession.

Philando Castille would like a word.
Oh, wait. He was shot for just saying he had a permitted gun.
Never mind. It *is* just possession.


You’re going to say “cop thought he was poulling it out,” I’m going to say why TF would someone announce that in advance by telling the cop, you’re going to say it was reasonable for a cop to ask a person to get their ;licence and then shoot them for reaching for something. So, no not going to respond to you on this. But yes, just posession, and even no posession of a gun at all will get you shot - just following a cops orders to provide ID will get you shot for “reaching.”

 

[Derec]

Philando Castille would like a word.
Oh, wait. He was shot for just saying he had a permitted gun.
Never mind. It *is* just possession.

One big reason why you remember his name eight years later is that this kind of situation is highly unlikely. And in a country as big as ours, with 333M people, even very unlikely things will happen occasionally. That does not mean that police shoot people for "just possession" with any regularity.

You’re going to say “cop thought he was poulling it out,” I’m going to say why TF would someone announce that in advance by telling the cop, you’re going to say it was reasonable for a cop to ask a person to get their ;licence and then shoot them for reaching for something. So, no not going to respond to you on this.

Indeed, there was some confusion during that police stop, which led to the tragic outcome. That's how these things tend to happen, not through malice.

But yes, just posession, and even no posession of a gun at all will get you shot - just following a cops orders to provide ID will get you shot for “reaching.”

Language to the effect of "will get you shot" implies some level of certainty. If X, then Y will happen. In reality stuff like that, to the extent that it happens at all, is highly unlikely. How many instances of this happened in say the last decade? Divide that by the number of police-civilian interactions over the same time period - I suspect you might have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting shot for pulling out your ID; or, at the very least, they are on the same order of magnitude. Btw, do you have any particular instances in mind?

 

[Derec]

It sounds like you are saying that any time any cop does anything objectionable, one should talk about BLM first. Or, instead. It sounds like you’re saying, “you brought up police misconduct in a police misconduct thread. OF COURSE we should talk about BLM! NO topic is more important!”

The cases that tend to get brought up over and over again tend to be the #BLM cases. You yourself mentioned Phiandro Castille, for example.

 

[Derec]

The boyfriend shot at unidentified tired intruders into his home.

For the record, police say they announced themselves.

What would 2nd Amendment loving Americans have had him do?

Identify the target, perhaps?

The police SOUGHT a no-knock warrant and obtained one in their search for someone who had not lived at that address for some time AND WAS ACTUALLY IN CUSTODY when the warrant was executed.

That is on those who sought the warrant and misrepresented the situation to the judge. It is not on the officers who executed a warrant in accordance with procedures.

Think about it: it could just as easily have been someone who had just moved into the apartment that he and Breonna used to live in and who had zero knowledge of the ex who was already in police custody. I don’t know if you rent or own or if it’s a single family dwelling or an apartment but I will bet that at some time you lived in an apartment t. Should your life be endangered by a no-knock warrant on a firmer tenant who happened to have lived at your address at one time? Of course not.

Of course not. But that does not mean that the officers who executed the warrant are guilty of any crime.

The current boyfriend was ‘standing his ground’ as white people are allowed to do in many states in the US and in fact, fired a. warning shot into the floor ( not a good idea but also not the point).

No, he actually hit a police officer in the leg. And btw, unless their apartment was on the bottom floor, his "warning shot" could have killed somebody below.

The police fucked up very very badly and an innocent woman died because of their carelessness and incompetence.

The detectives that lied to the judge did. I do not see what the officers executing the warrant did wrong. Again, what would you have done if you were "Patrolman Toni"?

 

[Derec]

What fraction of police shootings fall into that category?

I do not know the numbers. Would be an interesting thing to research, unless the researcher has an ax to grind (way too common in so-called social sciences). But the number of all unarmed people shot by police is only 49 out of >1100 for 2023. 136 are "unknown", but all the others, almost 1000, were armed in some fashion, mostly with guns.

And I’m assuming we are only counting those that are independently verifiable, not ones when there is only the cop’s word that the “perp was reaching for the cop’s gun”.

Are you assuming that all of those who are not "independently verifiable" to your satisfaction have not been attacking cops?

 

[laughing dog]

The boyfriend shot at unidentified tired intruders into his home.

For the record, police say they announced themselves.

What would 2nd Amendment loving Americans have had him do?

Identify the target, perhaps?

The police SOUGHT a no-knock warrant and obtained one in their search for someone who had not lived at that address for some time AND WAS ACTUALLY IN CUSTODY when the warrant was executed.

That is on those who sought the warrant and misrepresented the situation to the judge. It is not on the officers who executed a warrant in accordance with procedures.

Think about it: it could just as easily have been someone who had just moved into the apartment that he and Breonna used to live in and who had zero knowledge of the ex who was already in police custody. I don’t know if you rent or own or if it’s a single family dwelling or an apartment but I will bet that at some time you lived in an apartment t. Should your life be endangered by a no-knock warrant on a firmer tenant who happened to have lived at your address at one time? Of course not.

Of course not. But that does not mean that the officers who executed the warrant are guilty of any crime.

The current boyfriend was ‘standing his ground’ as white people are allowed to do in many states in the US and in fact, fired a. warning shot into the floor ( not a good idea but also not the point).

No, he actually hit a police officer in the leg. And btw, unless their apartment was on the bottom floor, his "warning shot" could have killed somebody below.

Pretty ironic since some of their shots. Went through a wall to kill an innocent civilian.

 

[Shadowy Man]

What fraction of police shootings fall into that category?

I do not know the numbers. Would be an interesting thing to research, unless the researcher has an ax to grind (way too common in so-called social sciences). But the number of all unarmed people shot by police is only 49 out of >1100 for 2023. 136 are "unknown", but all the others, almost 1000, were armed in some fashion, mostly with guns.

Sure. But that wasn’t the claim I was interested in knowing about.

And I’m assuming we are only counting those that are independently verifiable, not ones when there is only the cop’s word that the “perp was reaching for the cop’s gun”.

Are you assuming that all of those who are not "independently verifiable" to your satisfaction have not been attacking cops?

I’m saying that I don’t trust just the cop’s word that someone was “reaching for their gun”. So it would remain unknown at best.

 

[Toni]

The boyfriend shot at unidentified tired intruders into his home.

For the record, police say they announced themselves.

What would 2nd Amendment loving Americans have had him do?

Identify the target, perhaps?

The police SOUGHT a no-knock warrant and obtained one in their search for someone who had not lived at that address for some time AND WAS ACTUALLY IN CUSTODY when the warrant was executed.

That is on those who sought the warrant and misrepresented the situation to the judge. It is not on the officers who executed a warrant in accordance with procedures.

Think about it: it could just as easily have been someone who had just moved into the apartment that he and Breonna used to live in and who had zero knowledge of the ex who was already in police custody. I don’t know if you rent or own or if it’s a single family dwelling or an apartment but I will bet that at some time you lived in an apartment t. Should your life be endangered by a no-knock warrant on a firmer tenant who happened to have lived at your address at one time? Of course not.

Of course not. But that does not mean that the officers who executed the warrant are guilty of any crime.

The current boyfriend was ‘standing his ground’ as white people are allowed to do in many states in the US and in fact, fired a. warning shot into the floor ( not a good idea but also not the point).

No, he actually hit a police officer in the leg. And btw, unless their apartment was on the bottom floor, his "warning shot" could have killed somebody below.

The police fucked up very very badly and an innocent woman died because of their carelessness and incompetence.

The detectives that lied to the judge did. I do not see what the officers executing the warrant did wrong. Again, what would you have done if you were "Patrolman Toni"?

For the record, of course the police claim they announced themselves. Wouldn’t you make that claim? It may or may not be true. We will never actually know. But imagine you are awakeNed in the middle of the night by an intruder. You may or may not hear the intruder announce themselves. And you may or may not be awake enough to grasp that it is the police. And you may or may not perceive that they are not a danger to you. Perhaps less if you are not white. BTW, this is one of my arguments against gun ownership: unintentionally shooting an intruder who is actually a family member or someone else who was not a threat. And yes, I’ve encountered someone unexpected in my home in the middle of the night and been very grateful I did not have a gun.

What would I have done had I been the officers? I don’t know. But firing my weapon would not be an automatic response.

 

[ZiprHead]

It sounds like you are saying that any time any cop does anything objectionable, one should talk about BLM first. Or, instead. It sounds like you’re saying, “you brought up police misconduct in a police misconduct thread. OF COURSE we should talk about BLM! NO topic is more important!”

The cases that tend to get brought up by me over and over again tend to be the #BLM cases. You yourself mentioned Phiandro Castille, for example.

FTFY

 

[unapologetic]

possession of a replica by itself should not be an accepted excuse for any police officer to open fire.

Most sci-fi conventions now don't allow carrying replica weapons (even swords), except onstage.

 

[Derec]

Thanks for shifting the focus away from my point about trivial incidents leading to police misconduct and using it as an opportunity to push your ulterior motive about inconsistencies in public reactions to different cases of police misconduct, which has nothing to do with what I said.

You mentioned the case of police shooting somebody because they were allegedly startled by an acorn.
I offered a similar example of an innocent woman being killed. Note that Mohammed Noor is often defended on here and his actions are downplayed.
Why are you so opposed to this example, Gospel?

 

[Derec]

The cases that tend to get brought up by me over and over again tend to be the #BLM cases. You yourself mentioned Phiandro Castille, for example.

FTFY

Rhea brought up Philandro Castille. Toni brought up Breanna Taylor. Your "fix" is nothing of the sort.

 

[laughing dog]

Thanks for shifting the focus away from my point about trivial incidents leading to police misconduct and using it as an opportunity to push your ulterior motive about inconsistencies in public reactions to different cases of police misconduct, which has nothing to do with what I said.

You mentioned the case of police shooting somebody because they were allegedly startled by an acorn.
I offered a similar example of an innocent woman being killed. Note that Mohammed Noor is often defended on here and his actions are downplayed.

That is an indefensible mischaracterization. No one has defended Mr Noor’s actions or downplayed.

 

[Derec]

That is an indefensible mischaracterization. No one has defended Mr Noor’s actions or downplayed.

Here is Toni downplaying it, calling it "panic, not murder". Here she is saying that Noor was only charged at all because of his race - she thinks he should have gotten off scot free! Here you are, downplaying what he did.

Contrast that to how white police officers who kill criminals, even if accidentally like Chauvin, are described on here. It is also disgusting to me that Noor got off with serving only three years due to black and Muslim privilege.

 

[laughing dog]

That is an indefensible mischaracterization. No one has defended Mr Noor’s actions or downplayed.

Here is Toni downplaying it, calling it "panic, not murder".

Technically, it was not murder. While Mr. Noor was convicted of 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter, the Mn Supreme Court threw out the 3rd degree murder charge

"on the basis that the state failed to prove that he committed murder with a "depraved mind" which is a "generalized indifference to human life" as required for the offense of third-degree murder. As the conduct in this case did not meet that standard, the Supreme Court directed the trial court to vacate the conviction of third-degree murder and sentence Noor for the lesser offense of second-degree manslaughter.

  Killing of Justine Damond

Here she is saying that Noor was only charged at all because of his race - she thinks he should have gotten off scot free!

No, she is arguing that the charges were only brought because he was black and his victim was white, and that if the races were reversed he would not have been charged. That is not saying he should have gotten off scot free but that he would have got off scot free.

Here you are, downplaying what he did.

That is a blatant msicharacterization of what I wrote. The fact you are unwilling or incapable of seeing a distinct difference between a a split second decision to pull a trigger and a 8 minute sadistic attack on a prone victim is truly telling.

Contrast that to how white police officers who kill criminals, even if accidentally like Chauvin, are described on here. It is also disgusting to me that he got off with serving only three years due to black and Muslim privilege.

You keep repeating those racist accusations even though there is no shred of evidence that the Mn Supreme Court took Mr. Noor's race or religion into account.

 

[Derec]

Technically, it was not murder. While Mr. Noor was convicted of 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter, the Mn Supreme Court threw out the 3rd degree murder charge

It was murder based on the facts. I am aware that the highly political MN Subprime Court overturned that conviction, when it is much more of a bona fide murder than George Floyd's accidental death.

"on the basis that the state failed to prove that he committed murder with a "depraved mind" which is a "generalized indifference to human life" as required for the offense of third-degree murder. As the conduct in this case did not meet that standard, the Supreme Court directed the trial court to vacate the conviction of third-degree murder and sentence Noor for the lesser offense of second-degree manslaughter.

Bullshit reasoning. He had no reason to draw his weapon, much less pull the trigger. He most definitely displayed "generalized indifference to human life".

You keep repeating those racist accusations even though there is no shred of evidence to support your claims.

What other explanation is there for somebody who shot an innocent woman for no reason getting off so lightly?
Note that ALL the justices on the MN Subprime Court are Democrats.

 

[laughing dog]

Technically, it was not murder. While Mr. Noor was convicted of 3rd degree murder and 2nd degree manslaughter, the Mn Supreme Court threw out the 3rd degree murder charge

It was murder based on the facts. I am aware that the highly political MN Subprime Court overturned that conviction, when it is much more of a bona fide murder than George Floyd's accidental death.

Pardon me if I take the opinion of impartial jurists steeped in Mn law and the facts of the case over your uniformed opinion. Mr. Floyd's death was no accident.

"on the basis that the state failed to prove that he committed murder with a "depraved mind" which is a "generalized indifference to human life" as required for the offense of third-degree murder. As the conduct in this case did not meet that standard, the Supreme Court directed the trial court to vacate the conviction of third-degree murder and sentence Noor for the lesser offense of second-degree manslaughter.

Bullshit reasoning. He had no reason to draw his weapon, much less pull the trigger. He most definitely displayed "generalized indifference to human life".

Mr. Noor testified he was scared. According to you whenever a white police officer is scared they have carte blanche to kill.

You keep repeating those racist accusations even though there is no shred of evidence to support your claims.

What other explanation is there for somebody who shot an innocent woman for no reason getting off so lightly?

The facts of the case and Mn law are the reasons for his light sentence.
Note that ALL the justices on the MN Subprime Court are Democrats.

There is no Mn Subprime Court. I suppose you refer to the Mn Supreme Court. In 2021 (when the Court handed down its decision), Justices Anderson and Gildea had been appointed by a Republican.

Besides, you need to make a cogent argument why the party affliation mattered in that case.

 

[Rhea]

Irony meters all over the world have imploded.

[The boyfriend should have] Identify the target, perhaps?

Indeed. And if the POLICE (you know, the trained people in this scene) were held to that same standard, it would not have happened.

No, he actually hit a police officer in the leg. And btw, unless their apartment was on the bottom floor, his "warning shot" could have killed somebody below.

Indeed. And if the POLICE (you know, the trained people in this scene) were held to that same standard, Breonna Taylor would be alive.

 

[Gospel]

Thanks for shifting the focus away from my point about trivial incidents leading to police misconduct and using it as an opportunity to push your ulterior motive about inconsistencies in public reactions to different cases of police misconduct, which has nothing to do with what I said.

You mentioned the case of police shooting somebody because they were allegedly startled by an acorn.
I offered a similar example of an innocent woman being killed. Note that Mohammed Noor is often defended on here and his actions are downplayed.
Why are you so opposed to this example, Gospel?

So you didn't say this.

This case did not result in much outrage.

 

[Gospel]

I offered a similar example of an innocent woman being killed.

And if you had left it at that, I wouldn't have interpreted it as you actually talking about this

Note that Mohammed Noor is often defended on here and his actions are downplayed.

But yes, it's a good example. I only took issue with your post because it seemed to counter my example. I was wrong, but it's not entirely my fault.