Police response to N.J. mall fight sparks outrage after Black teen cuffed as white teen watches

[laughing dog]

It is pedantry when it is used as a tactic to avoid the topic. Given your attempts at "precision of language" are usually failures, it is pedantry as a rhetorical tactic.

It is not any such thing. A rational discussion is impossible when one side has made up its mind and insists on language that reinforces a foregone conclusion about the facts.

I agree but I think we disagree who has made up its mind and is using language to reinforce its conclusions.

The answer on the table is racism. You have yet to come up with an alternative.

Yes, I already know what your foregone conclusion is.

For this situation, are there any sets of circumstances, any values of the many unknowns that you can imagine, so that the 'answer' would not be 'racism', or at least, not entirely racism?

As usual, you have no clue. I already said I was open. You have offered nothing but pedantry and evasion.

You are failing to come up with a defense of white male police officer even when you deflect attention to the woman.

 

[Metaphor]

I already said I was open. You have offered nothing but pedantry and evasion.

I reject both charges.

 

[Toni]

No. Lady cop is a pretty good alternative. It's like she didn't know what to do.

There was a male cop there. What did he do? Oh, he arrested the black kid and left the white one alone too. So it's not just A female officer thing.

But that doesn’t fit the narrative that female officers are by nature inferior to and subordinate to make officers.

If the white boy had resisted the female officer in any way, do you think she could have subdued him?

Sure.

I’m under 5’2 and I’ve flattened guys more than twice my size.

 

[laughing dog]

I already said I was open. You have offered nothing but pedantry and evasion.

I reject both charges.

Your rejection changes nothing - you are simply deflecting discussion from the topic.

A white male police officer engaged in what appears to be a racist action. You have offered nothing but deflection.

 

[Toni]

I’m not sure what you’re saying here: the ‘lady’ cop didn’t know what to do? Was what she was supposed to do—racism? Was she supposed to likewise throw the boy she sat down to the ground, put her knee in his back and cuff him? Arrest him as her partner arrested the other boy?

If she had done that, there certainly wouldn't be one tenth the amount of air time devoted to this brawl.

If the male officer had done the right thing and sat the boy he was dealing with down, as the female officer did, we would not be having this discussion.

 

[Metaphor]

A white male police officer engaged in what appears to be a racist action. You have offered nothing but deflection.

Non. A white male police officer engaged in what some people have concluded must be a racist action.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Where does it say the black kid was arrested?

Where does anyone say the "white kid" was detained, arrested, held up, obstructed, hindered, set back, delayed, slowed down by the police other than to stop him from attacking his victim?

The only story that said 'arrested' was the one linked by laughing dog (which was from thehill, but laughing dog claimed it was 'the internet') and I can't find any others that use that word. The CNN article in the OP didn't. Now, perhaps 'arrested' means only that he was restrained in handcuffs in this context, but I thought there had to be more than that to it.

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An “arrest” occurs when anyone in the state of New Jersey has been charged with a criminal offense.

In the context of the fight before the police arrived, what made the black boy the 'victim'?

Nope. I’ve already stated that if one merely googles nj mall fight, up pops a whole long list of links saying black teen arrested. Including some of your favorite sources such as The Guardian and the New York Post.

I did google it. And now I've searched The Guardian, though I don't know if I have the same story you are talking about. But in this story, the Guardian does not say the black boy was arrested, but it does quote the other boy saying 'arrested'.

‘Plain old racist’: teen in New Jersey mall fight condemns arrest of Black youth

Youth, 15, was shoved to couch but not restrained, while 14-year-old was handcuffed in incident that went viral

www.theguardian.com

A New Jersey teen who was involved in a mall fight that went viral has said police were wrong to treat him differently than the other youth in the altercation, who is Black.

“I don’t understand why they arrested him and not me,” he said. “I say, that was just plain old racist. I don’t condone that at all.”

I observe: your favorite source, The Daily Mail, has an article entitled "Black boy arrested in viral NJ mall fight..." and a conservative source--NY Post--has a caption below an image that starts "Prior to the arrest..." and another conservative favorite thehill has an article starting "Family of Black teen arrested..."

I didn’t bother reading the body of any of the many links mentioning the arrest of the black teen. I have noticed that a number have revised their headlines to remove the word arrest.

I think a lot of people in common usage use the word "arrest" like cuffed and detained and so it would meet that requirement but there might be a more formal usage, like being served by an arrest warrant affidavit.

 

[Metaphor]

No. Lady cop is a pretty good alternative. It's like she didn't know what to do.

There was a male cop there. What did he do? Oh, he arrested the black kid and left the white one alone too. So it's not just A female officer thing.

But that doesn’t fit the narrative that female officers are by nature inferior to and subordinate to make officers.

If the white boy had resisted the female officer in any way, do you think she could have subdued him?

Sure.

I’m under 5’2 and I’ve flattened guys more than twice my size.

"Flattened?" What did you do, uppercut them? Punch them in the balls?

I do not believe the female cop could have cuffed Franco on her own without unnecessary injury to either herself or the boy, and had the boy actually resisted, she would have been overpowered.

Women can make surprise attacks on men and best them, but the idea that women can subdue men physically on an even basis is delusional and dangerous. The top decile of women in hand grip strength are about on par with the lowest decile of hand grip strength for men.

 

[abaddon]

The answer on the table is racism. You have yet to come up with an alternative.

No. Lady cop is a pretty good alternative. It's like she didn't know what to do.

Your alternative explanation is that the male officer did not notice the incompetence of the alleged lady officer and so did not rectify her mistake?

Like, they see a situation resolved without violence on one half and with violence on the other, and they think "why not violence for everyone!" Instead of "why not deescalation for everyone"...

Seriously, what is the major malfunction here?

At best this is an argument against "men" being cops, as posed by the bad faith crowd.

I don't buy it though.

Yeah, that's what I'm wondering. That male officer, suffering small penis syndrome (ie, "machismo") was needlessly violent... but the problem is with the female who managed to break up a fight without belligerence?

Maybe in the end the difference is the different genders of the two officers. The one kid was detained in cuffs because the male cop was an idiot. Then they stayed on for however long (I think they said ~30 minutes) because, unfortunately, police officers won't correct one another's mistakes.

 

[Toni]

No. Lady cop is a pretty good alternative. It's like she didn't know what to do.

There was a male cop there. What did he do? Oh, he arrested the black kid and left the white one alone too. So it's not just A female officer thing.

But that doesn’t fit the narrative that female officers are by nature inferior to and subordinate to make officers.

If the white boy had resisted the female officer in any way, do you think she could have subdued him?

Sure.

I’m under 5’2 and I’ve flattened guys more than twice my size.

"Flattened?" What did you do, uppercut them? Punch them in the balls?

I do not believe the female cop could have cuffed Franco on her own without unnecessary injury to either herself or the boy, and had the boy actually resisted, she would have been overpowered.

Women can make surprise attacks on men and best them, but the idea that women can subdue men physically on an even basis is delusional and dangerous. The top decile of women in hand grip strength are about on par with the lowest decile of hand grip strength for men.

I’ve never knees or kicked any male in the crotch. I have tackled a couple ( more than once), have thrown one or two over my shoulder, and have knocked to the ground the guy who refused to take no for an answer and then walloped the daylights out of him until he was rescued.

But thank you for so eloquently illustrating why I was able to leverage my advantage: I believed I could do what most males would not believe me capable of doing.

 

[Metaphor]

I’ve never knees or kicked any make in the crotch. I have tackled a couple ( more than once), have thrown one it two over my shoulder, and have knocked the guy who refused to take no for an answer and then wallops the daylights out of him until he was rescued.

But thank you for so eloquently illustrating why I was able to leverage my advantage: I believed I could do what most males would not believe me capable of doing.

It is dangerous and delusional to foster a belief that most women are not at the physical mercy of most men. There's a reason why women are afraid of what men could to do them physically, if the men were so inclined.

Had Franco decided not to be so cooperative with the female cop, she'd have risked unnecessary injury to herself or to Franco to subdue him, if she could have subdued him at all.

 

[Toni]

I’ve never knees or kicked any make in the crotch. I have tackled a couple ( more than once), have thrown one it two over my shoulder, and have knocked the guy who refused to take no for an answer and then wallops the daylights out of him until he was rescued.

But thank you for so eloquently illustrating why I was able to leverage my advantage: I believed I could do what most males would not believe me capable of doing.

It is dangerous and delusional to foster a belief that most women are not at the physical mercy of most men. There's a reason why women are afraid of what men could to do them physically, if the men were so inclined.

Had Franco decided not to be so cooperative with the female cop, she'd have risked unnecessary injury to herself or to Franco to subdue him, if she could have subdued him at all.

The same can be said of the male officer.

As it was, the boys were 16 and 14–perhaps most of their adult height but neither have reached their adult weight or muscle mass: they are boys. Likely either could win a race against either officer, very easily. A close quartered fight? Maybe not.

But as boys, both were outweighed and out muscled against trained officers and as boys, also inclined to do what ordered to do by adults in authority. It’s surprising what you can do if you act with confidence. Most people will give way to someone in a uniform or in a position of authority. Remember: these are school boys who got into a stupid fight at a mall. They are not hardened criminals or gang bangers. They’re just kids.

The female officer easily got the one boy seated and compliant. The male officer was perhaps under too much influence of his raging testosterone. It seems to have clouded his judgement. What should have ended with a stern talking to and phone calls to the parents and a two week grounding of the boys became an international news event, and likely at least one court case will result.

 

[Rhea]

Be careful to not let those seeking to change the subject succeed in silencing the facts. Their tactic is to change the subject so that you are no longer able to have a conversation about the clear issue of race in this video.

They try to make comments demeaning women to draw the conversation into that. But the FACT is that the female cop treated one teen in one way, and then, after patting him on the chest, she went and kneeled on the neck of the other teen.

This is consistent with racism, and is not excused by the sexist derail that she is weak and had no other choicxe but the treat the white boy kindly. She walked over and kneeled on the neck of the boy who was on the ground, turning her back on the other boy.

Then they try to get pedantic about whether the word "arrest" is perfect or not. Failing to understand American law... Again, to try to get you to talk about something other than the clear issue of race in this scene.

Length of the Stop: Short or Prolonged?
Investigatory stops (or "detentions") must be no longer than necessary and officers must investigate with the least intrusive means that are reasonably available. When an officer prolongs a detention beyond what is brief and cursory and broadens it, then the detention may turn into a de facto arrest—that is, an actual but not official arrest.

If a reasonable person in the suspect's position would have considered the police's behavior to constitute the kind of restraint that's typical of formal arrest, then an arrest has occurred. Some courts phrase the issue as depending on whether, after brief questioning, a reasonable innocent person would have felt free to leave—if not, there's been an arrest. (Johnson v. Bay Area Rapid Transit Dist., 724 F.3d 1159 (9th Cir. 2013).)

The problem remains that no explanation is more clear than race.

• Not the gender of the cops, since the female cop treated the two teens differently moving one, kneeling on the neck of the other, and the male cop did not make choices consistent with thinking himself "stronger" - unless they both concluded that "Black" = "more dangerous"
• Not the question of whether the body-slammed-and-handcuffed teen was actually arrested versus de facto arrested compared to the standing-around-behind-the-cops-without-being-monitored teen.
• Not whether one was a bully and the other a victim, since the police were not there for that part.

There are people who do no want this argument to include racism. And they are doing everything they can to change the subject. And when people take the effort to rebut their claims, they simply repeat them again, expecting that if they shout it loudly enough and often enough they will be believed.


But that is a tactic. It is clear as day and repeated over and over and over. "But what about this excuse?" (don't address racism) "But what about that excuse" (don't address racism) "But what, again, about this first excuse, as if it was never rebutted" (got you away from racism! Hah!)


Facts: This is not an isolated example. It happens again and again and again, at frequencies that are not possible to exist without racism. And people (including those on this board) will use this statistic to claim that black people commit more crimes, gleefully hiding the FACT that many of those arrests are unjust.

An example of an unjust arrest is shown to them,. and they launch into their tactics of distract and derail. Then claim it never happened.

 

[Gospel]

We're not looking at the same video. I see the criminal

Your use of the word 'criminal' is begging the question.

with his hand in the face of the victim

Your use of the word 'victim' is begging the question.

while making threats in an aggressive manner. The victim was within his rights to defend himself at that point however he only went with shoving the hand away and saying "get your hand out of my face". Then the criminal escalated with a shove which was actual assault and again the victim was justified in responding. Unless you'd like to dispute shoving a threatening hand away from your face isn't assault.

I can't find footage without a news person talking over it so I can't say who was or was not being verbally threatening. In any case, there are parts of interaction not on any video I've seen that would be necessary to call one of them the 'criminal' and one the 'victim'. For example, were they both sitting down before the fight? Did one of them stand up first and move closer to the other? This yahoo story has some additional details I have not read before:

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According to Franco, who goes by Joey, the fight on the mall's third floor started when he asked why another teen allegedly planned to jump someone and that teen responded with an aggressive tone.

"I don't mess around with that," Franco said, adding they began arguing before another teen, identified by his lawyer as Z'Kye Husain, stepped up and allegedly said he could beat up Franco. Franco and Husain did not know each other.

I am not willing to make a call on the rightness or wrongness or criminality or victimhood of the two boys with regards to the fight they had with each other, given there is information we surely do not know and the information could cast events in a new light. On the face of it, without other context, Franco's hand in the face and consequent shove give the appearance that he was the bigger aggressor at the start.

But whatever the cops did or did not do to Husain does not reflect on Franco.

You went from what in the video made the black kid the victim and changed it to HEY LOOK AT THIS ARTICLE. Is it ok for me to use an article now?

 

[Toni]

I’ve never knees or kicked any make in the crotch. I have tackled a couple ( more than once), have thrown one it two over my shoulder, and have knocked the guy who refused to take no for an answer and then wallops the daylights out of him until he was rescued.

But thank you for so eloquently illustrating why I was able to leverage my advantage: I believed I could do what most males would not believe me capable of doing.

It is dangerous and delusional to foster a belief that most women are not at the physical mercy of most men. There's a reason why women are afraid of what men could to do them physically, if the men were so inclined.

Had Franco decided not to be so cooperative with the female cop, she'd have risked unnecessary injury to herself or to Franco to subdue him, if she could have subdued him at all.

You have a point: my advantage was being vastly underestimated.

Let’s just pretend I never told you what happened.

 

[Metaphor]

Be careful to not let those seeking to change the subject succeed in silencing the facts.

We are trying to determine the facts. You had the facts pre-determined.

Their tactic is to change the subject so that you are no longer able to have a conversation about the clear issue of race in this video.

Our tactic is to talk about all the possibilities consistent with the incident, not exclude scenarios consistent with incident but inconvenient to your narrative.

They try to make comments demeaning women

What has anybody said that is demeaning to women?

to draw the conversation into that. But the FACT is that the female cop treated one teen in one way, and then, after patting him on the chest, she went and kneeled on the neck of the other teen.

"Patting him on the chest". Again, you cannot but help your bias colour every thing you perceive. What if she had her hand on his chest to tell him to 'stay there, stay sitting down'?

This is consistent with racism, and is not excused by the sexist derail

There was no sexism, unless 'discussing facts about physical and temperamental differences on average by sex' is 'sexist'.

I suppose you think there are no differences.

that she is weak and had no other choicxe but the treat the white boy kindly.

She didn't treat the white boy kindly. You perceive her as having treated the white boy 'kindly'. I perceive no such thing. I'm worried about what you think 'kind' means.

She walked over and kneeled on the neck of the boy who was on the ground, turning her back on the other boy.

Yes, she was assisting her police partner.

Then they try to get pedantic about whether the word "arrest" is perfect or not. Failing to understand American law... Again, to try to get you to talk about something other than the clear issue of race in this scene.

"Failing to understand American law"? What?

Either Husain was arrested under NJ or federal law or he wasn't. Some stories report the word 'arrest' but what is shown and described is not consistent with my understanding of the word 'arrest'.

And don't try to get away with rhetorical techniques then claim it is others who are clouding the issue. The word 'arrest' was used, it seems, to further compound the perceptions of the actions of the police officers, and not used because Husain was actually arrested.

 

[Metaphor]

You went from what in the video made the black kid the victim and changed it to HEY LOOK AT THIS ARTICLE. Is it ok for me to use an article now?

No, I said what made the black kid a victim in the fight before the cops arrived.

I am not talking about whether he was a 'victim' because of the actions of the cops in this incident or some general background 'all cops are racist bastards all the time' belief. You specifically called the Husain the victim of Franco.

I don't believe you were justified in calling Husain a victim of Franco based on the evidence we had at the time, and you are even less justified in doing so now.

 

[Metaphor]

The problem remains that no explanation is more clear than race.

The problem is that you will brook no other explanation. You cannot even entertain the possibility.

• Not the gender of the cops,

I have not talked about the gender of the cops. I have talked about the sex of the cops. I do not know the gender of the cops, since their gender identity is a thought in their head.

• since the female cop treated the two teens differently moving one, kneeling on the neck of the other, and the male cop did not make choices consistent with thinking himself "stronger" - unless they both concluded that "Black" = "more dangerous"

The female cop treated the two teens differently because they were in different positions to begin with.

Whether they perceived one of the teens as stronger or more dangerous I do not know.

• Not the question of whether the body-slammed-and-handcuffed teen was actually arrested versus de facto arrested compared to the standing-around-behind-the-cops-without-being-monitored teen.

By your own definition, Franco was arrested too, since he did not appear to believe he was free to leave.

• Not whether one was a bully and the other a victim, since the police were not there for that part.

There are people who do no want this argument to include racism. And they are doing everything they can to change the subject. And when people take the effort to rebut their claims, they simply repeat them again, expecting that if they shout it loudly enough and often enough they will be believed.

We repeat claims that have been ignored, not 'rebutted'. Nothing has been rebutted.

But that is a tactic. It is clear as day and repeated over and over and over. "But what about this excuse?" (don't address racism) "But what about that excuse" (don't address racism) "But what, again, about this first excuse, as if it was never rebutted" (got you away from racism! Hah!)

It is clear as day that you repeat your foregone conclusions over and over.

Facts: This is not an isolated example. It happens again and again and again, at frequencies that are not possible to exist without racism. And people (including those on this board) will use this statistic to claim that black people commit more crimes, gleefully hiding the FACT that many of those arrests are unjust.

An example of an unjust arrest is shown to them,. and they launch into their tactics of distract and derail. Then claim it never happened.

I have no reason to believe Husain was arrested, nor any reason to believe he will appear as a 'black arrestee' on any crime reports.

If you are making a separate claim that the entire disparity between black and non-black crime is due to racist cops, that is a separate argument for a separate thread.

 

[Metaphor]

I’ve never knees or kicked any make in the crotch. I have tackled a couple ( more than once), have thrown one it two over my shoulder, and have knocked the guy who refused to take no for an answer and then wallops the daylights out of him until he was rescued.

But thank you for so eloquently illustrating why I was able to leverage my advantage: I believed I could do what most males would not believe me capable of doing.

It is dangerous and delusional to foster a belief that most women are not at the physical mercy of most men. There's a reason why women are afraid of what men could to do them physically, if the men were so inclined.

Had Franco decided not to be so cooperative with the female cop, she'd have risked unnecessary injury to herself or to Franco to subdue him, if she could have subdued him at all.

You have a point: my advantage was being vastly underestimated.

Let’s just pretend I never told you what happened.

You have very strange beliefs about the physical differences (and the implications of those differences) between males and females. This is evident not just from this thread but your claim that sports were separated by sex because men were afraid of losing to women.

 

[Toni]

I’ve never knees or kicked any make in the crotch. I have tackled a couple ( more than once), have thrown one it two over my shoulder, and have knocked the guy who refused to take no for an answer and then wallops the daylights out of him until he was rescued.

But thank you for so eloquently illustrating why I was able to leverage my advantage: I believed I could do what most males would not believe me capable of doing.

It is dangerous and delusional to foster a belief that most women are not at the physical mercy of most men. There's a reason why women are afraid of what men could to do them physically, if the men were so inclined.

Had Franco decided not to be so cooperative with the female cop, she'd have risked unnecessary injury to herself or to Franco to subdue him, if she could have subdued him at all.

You have a point: my advantage was being vastly underestimated.

Let’s just pretend I never told you what happened.

You have very strange beliefs about the physical differences (and the implications of those differences) between males and females. This is evident not just from this thread but your claim that sports were separated by sex because men were afraid of losing to women.

Again, you simply confirm exactly the attitudes and prejudices that have allowed me to be an asset in a pick up game of (American) football and to escape and prevent assault on multiple occasions.

I’m quite sincere.

And I note your attempt to cripple me and other women with fear of male superiority.
It’s such an obvious, worn out tactic.