Police response to N.J. mall fight sparks outrage after Black teen cuffed as white teen watches

[Metaphor]

BTW Metaphor in New Jersey you're guilty of harassment if you subjected someone else to striking, kicking, shoving or offensive touching, or threatened to do so.

The underlined part is pertinent to my claim.

So what made Franco guilty of that but not Husain?

Both were talking until one of them put their hand in the other's face (which is assault according to New Jersey Law)

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One defend himself by moving the hand from his face (he was justified because that is considered assault)
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And in response the Criminal pushed him (which is assault under New Jersey Law).
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Yes, the hand in the face was assault and I never denied that. But we don't know what caused the hand in the face. Did Husain stand up first to confront Franco? Were they already standing? Who moved closer first? Do you consider 'let's step outside' not a threat?

 

[laughing dog]

As insane as feminist institutional capture has gotten, I do know that men will step up when they are needed, and that includes carrying unconscious bodies out of a burning building where women do not possess the strength to do so.

Please do not volunteer your thoughts about feminist "capture", because you are consistently wrong about them, and you never take feedback on your wrongness.

 

[abaddon]

On looking at the video a few more times, it looks like the female officer didn't pull the one kid off so much as the male officer threw that kid aside to get at the black kid.

 

[Metaphor]

As insane as feminist institutional capture has gotten, I do know that men will step up when they are needed, and that includes carrying unconscious bodies out of a burning building where women do not possess the strength to do so.

Please do not volunteer your thoughts about feminist "capture", because you are consistently wrong about them, and you never take feedback on your wrongness.

I wasn't talking to you.

 

[Toni]

Well I believed my eyes: She definitely had more weight to her.

I'm sorry: did you just say that you think the female cop weighed more than Franco? I want you to confirm that is what you said and what you think.

Besides, why are you all upset that one officer managed to subdue one of the boys without throwing him to the ground and cuffing him—and didn’t need her partner to help her?

Who said I was upset?

Maybe you’re right: she looked real weak. Thank his there was a big string man to help her.[/sarcasm].

As insane as feminist institutional capture has gotten, I do know that men will step up when they are needed, and that includes carrying unconscious bodies out of a burning building where women do not possess the strength to do so.

Hey, you are the one who seems upset that I have successfully defended myself ( and others) against physical assaults by males much bigger than I am. You also seem extremely disturbed that the female officer wasn’t sufficiently physical with the kid she got to sit down without knocking him down or cuffing him.

I will grant you that more men are more likely to be able to carry you out og a burning building should the need arise but 1) You’d be foolish to insist on a genitalia check if you find yourself in need of such assistance and 2) There is no burning building in question, except that you seem to need to confirm that in general men can lift/carry more dead weight than most women. I’m not sure why that is important to you but it seems to be.

Oh, in the US, we have female firefighters who are considered to be very valuable, even integral members of firehouse crews.

 

[Gospel]

Yes, the hand in the face was assault and I never denied that. But we don't know what caused the hand in the face. Did Husain stand up first to confront Franco? Were they already standing? Who moved closer first? Do you consider 'let's step outside' not a threat?

If Husain did any of those things it wouldn't be against the law. Now for the "let's step outside" being a threat I initially tried to grant that one to the criminal but he seemed a little too eager to wait for outside.

 

[Metaphor]

Hey, you are the one who seems upset that I have successfully defended myself ( and others) against physical assaults by males much bigger than I am.

Well, you are wrong that I am upset. I'm glad you were not a victim.

You also seem extremely disturbed that the female officer wasn’t sufficiently physical with the kid she got to sit down without knocking him down or cuffing him.

Well, you are wrong that I am 'disturbed', let alone 'extremely disturbed'.

I will grant you that more men are more likely to be able to carry you out og a burning building should the need arise but 1) You’d be foolish to insist on a genitalia check if you find yourself in need of such assistance

You and others on this board seem obsessed with genitals. You mention them all the time without context or prompting. It's sad and disturbing. Please stop mentioning genitals unless we are talking about them. It is entirely unnecessary to this conversation. If you find yourself thinking about genitals a lot, see somebody.

I'm serious. You cannot seem to enter any discussion about males and females without fantasising about genitals.

and 2) There is no burning building in question, except that you seem to need to confirm that in general men can lift/carry more dead weight than most women. I’m not sure why that is important to you but it seems to be.

It's important to me that in situations that are life and death and much depends on physical strength standards, that physical strength standards are taken into account, even when that means more men will make the grade. That is not the case in some fire departments in Australia at the moment, where firefighter intakes are some top percentile of the male candidates and the same percentile of female candidates, and this means women with lower scores and lower strength are selected over men with higher scores and more strength, solely because the institutions are captured by insane feminist ideology.

Oh, in the US, we have female firefighters who are considered to be very valuable, even integral members of firehouse crews.

I do not doubt that the same feminist ideological capture has also penetrated many fire fighting departments in the United States, and that many men quietly do the physical work that the women do not and cannot do.

 

[Gospel]

On looking at the video a few more times, it looks like the female officer didn't pull the one kid off so much as the male officer threw that kid aside to get at the black kid.

Facts

 

[Toni]

Hey, you are the one who seems upset that I have successfully defended myself ( and others) against physical assaults by males much bigger than I am.

Well, you are wrong that I am upset. I'm glad you were not a victim.

You also seem extremely disturbed that the female officer wasn’t sufficiently physical with the kid she got to sit down without knocking him down or cuffing him.

Well, you are wrong that I am 'disturbed', let alone 'extremely disturbed'.

I will grant you that more men are more likely to be able to carry you out og a burning building should the need arise but 1) You’d be foolish to insist on a genitalia check if you find yourself in need of such assistance

You and others on this board seem obsessed with genitals. You mention them all the time without context or prompting. It's sad and disturbing. Please stop mentioning genitals unless we are talking about them. It is entirely unnecessary to this conversation. If you find yourself thinking about genitals a lot, see somebody.

I'm serious. You cannot seem to enter any discussion about males and females without fantasising about genitals.

and 2) There is no burning building in question, except that you seem to need to confirm that in general men can lift/carry more dead weight than most women. I’m not sure why that is important to you but it seems to be.

It's important to me that in situations that are life and death and much depends on physical strength standards, that physical strength standards are taken into account, even when that means more men will make the grade. That is not the case in some fire departments in Australia at the moment, where firefighter intakes are some top percentile of the male candidates and the same percentile of female candidates, and this means women with lower scores and lower strength are selected over men with higher scores and more strength, solely because the institutions are captured by insane feminist ideology.

Oh, in the US, we have female firefighters who are considered to be very valuable, even integral members of firehouse crews.

I do not doubt that the same feminist ideological capture has also penetrated many fire fighting departments in the United States, and that many men quietly do the physical work that the women do not and cannot do.

Might I point out that 1) you are the one who brought up rescues by MALE firefighters and 2) YOU are the one who is insistent that only physical XY males with a penis count as males.

I think we can all agree that on average, males are physically stronger with respect to the ability to carry dead weight than are females. However this is not true of ALL males and ALL females. Nor is it true that firefighting involves only or mostly carrying people out of burning buildings. Nor is it true that only the physically strongest person (strength measured as ability to carry dead weight) on the team is capable of carrying a dead weight out of a burning building. As a 90something pound teenager I learned the fireman's carry technique.

I'm old and now I'm fat and I'm not tall but true story: The day I greeted my son on base after his return from serving in Afghanistan: I picked him up and spun (slowly, awkwardly) around with him, I was that glad to see him.

 

[Metaphor]

Might I point out that 1) you are the one who brought up rescues by MALE firefighters and 2) YOU are the one who is insistent that only physical XY males with a penis count as males.

You are obsessed. Stop it. Really, stop it. The fact that I recognise adult human males as adult human males does not mean I fantasise about inspecting genitals.

Men are adult human males. Male mammals are of the sex that forms around producing small motile gametes. Men who have had their external genitals mutilated or cut off or who have disorders of sexual development are still human males, because they are of the sex that forms around producing small motile gametes.

Men are stronger than women partly because they have more circulating testosterone (which in men, is produced in their testes, not their penis). But that isn't the only reason men are stronger than women.

I think we can all agree that on average, males are physically stronger with respect to the ability to carry dead weight than are females. However this is not true of ALL males and ALL females.

No. But most males are better than most females at it.

Nor is it true that firefighting involves only or mostly carrying people out of burning buildings. Nor is it true that only the physically strongest person (strength measured as ability to carry dead weight) on the team is capable of carrying a dead weight out of a burning building.

I did not say any of those things.

What I am saying is that feminist ideology insists on equity. And that is unalloyed insanity.

 

[Toni]

Might I point out that 1) you are the one who brought up rescues by MALE firefighters and 2) YOU are the one who is insistent that only physical XY males with a penis count as males.

You are obsessed. Stop it. Really, stop it. The fact that I recognise adult human males as adult human males does not mean I fantasise about inspecting genitals.

Men are adult human males. Male mammals are of the sex that forms around producing small motile gametes. Men who have had their external genitals mutilated or cut off or who have disorders of sexual development are still human males, because they are of the sex that forms around producing small motile gametes.

Men are stronger than women partly because they have more circulating testosterone (which in men, is produced in their testes, not their penis). But that isn't the only reason men are stronger than women.

I think we can all agree that on average, males are physically stronger with respect to the ability to carry dead weight than are females. However this is not true of ALL males and ALL females.

No. But most males are better than most females at it.

Nor is it true that firefighting involves only or mostly carrying people out of burning buildings. Nor is it true that only the physically strongest person (strength measured as ability to carry dead weight) on the team is capable of carrying a dead weight out of a burning building.

I did not say any of those things.

What I am saying is that feminist ideology insists on equity. And that is unalloyed insanity.

There are many ways of defining strength. You brought up firefighting and being able to carry someone out of a burning building so I focused on the type of physical strength required to carry a body out of a burning building. While on average, a man would be better able to carry a body out of a burning building than a woman would be, firefighting companies are not in the habit of sending in people who are not physically fit enough to carry out the job requirements (which, rarely, are carrying out a body) so my advice stands: should you ever be so unfortunate as to find yourself in need of rescue from a burning building, please go with whatever help is offered, even if it doesn't have a penis. Sorry to mention genitalia but again, that seems to be what you think most important in determining who is and who is not a male.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You are implying that the black kid was the white boy's "victim" in the fight between them. The video footage I saw does not imply one was a victim over the other. Instead it was escalating tension that reached a fight point.

We're not looking at the same video. I see the criminal with his hand in the face of the victim while making threats in an aggressive manner. The victim was within his rights to defend himself at that point however he only went with shoving the hand away and saying "get your hand out of my face". Then the criminal escalated with a shove which was actual assault and again the victim was justified in responding. Unless you'd like to dispute shoving a threatening hand away from your face isn't assault.

You have a more complete video? What I've seen starts just a hair too late to reasonably decide who is at fault.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If the male officer had done the right thing and sat the boy he was dealing with down, as the female officer did, we would not be having this discussion.

It would be pretty hard to sit him down from the position he was in.

 

[Metaphor]

There are many ways of defining strength. You brought up firefighting and being able to carry someone out of a burning building so I focused on the type of physical strength required to carry a body out of a burning building. While on average, a man would be better able to carry a body out of a burning building than a woman would be, firefighting companies are not in the habit of sending in people who are not physically fit enough to carry out the job requirements (which, rarely, are carrying out a body) so my advice stands: should you ever be so unfortunate as to find yourself in need of rescue from a burning building, please go with whatever help is offered, even if it doesn't have a penis. Sorry to mention genitalia but again, that seems to be what you think most important in determining who is and who is not a male.

Your consist wrongness is not surprising, but it is so tiring.

Males are of the sex that is formed around producing small, motile gametes. Stop projecting your inability to understand sex in humans on me, and stop pretending your penis obsession is mine.

 

[Gospel]

You are implying that the black kid was the white boy's "victim" in the fight between them. The video footage I saw does not imply one was a victim over the other. Instead it was escalating tension that reached a fight point.

We're not looking at the same video. I see the criminal with his hand in the face of the victim while making threats in an aggressive manner. The victim was within his rights to defend himself at that point however he only went with shoving the hand away and saying "get your hand out of my face". Then the criminal escalated with a shove which was actual assault and again the victim was justified in responding. Unless you'd like to dispute shoving a threatening hand away from your face isn't assault.

You have a more complete video? What I've seen starts just a hair too late to reasonably decide who is at fault.

No, I do not have a more complete video. I'm certain more will be made available to the public as there were a lot of teens with their cell phones out recording the incident and police have asked for them to be turned in. If these teens have any resemblance of parents in the home I'm certain the parents had them turned in by now. As for now, I'm going off the available evidence as that's just how things work.

 

[Gospel]

This. She put one on the bench, saw that he didn't appear to want to fight anymore so she turned to see if her partner needed help.

But she somehow didn't see that the black kid "didn't want to fight anymore" then proceeded to put her knee on his back.

 

[Worldtraveller]

I wonder how the mall would handle a victim of theft. If you get your wallet stolen they'll ban you from the mall and then make you pay for the table the thief broke on the way out right?

Yes, but only if you're black.

 

[Gospel]

If the male officer had done the right thing and sat the boy he was dealing with down, as the female officer did, we would not be having this discussion.

It would be pretty hard to sit him down from the position he was in.

How hard would it have been to sit him down on the ground when he was already there?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Be careful to not let those seeking to change the subject succeed in silencing the facts. Their tactic is to change the subject so that you are no longer able to have a conversation about the clear issue of race in this video.

They try to make comments demeaning women to draw the conversation into that. But the FACT is that the female cop treated one teen in one way, and then, after patting him on the chest, she went and kneeled on the neck of the other teen.

This is consistent with racism, and is not excused by the sexist derail that she is weak and had no other choicxe but the treat the white boy kindly. She walked over and kneeled on the neck of the boy who was on the ground, turning her back on the other boy.

...

Length of the Stop: Short or Prolonged?
Investigatory stops (or "detentions") must be no longer than necessary and officers must investigate with the least intrusive means that are reasonably available. When an officer prolongs a detention beyond what is brief and cursory and broadens it, then the detention may turn into a de facto arrest—that is, an actual but not official arrest.

If a reasonable person in the suspect's position would have considered the police's behavior to constitute the kind of restraint that's typical of formal arrest, then an arrest has occurred. Some courts phrase the issue as depending on whether, after brief questioning, a reasonable innocent person would have felt free to leave—if not, there's been an arrest. (Johnson v. Bay Area Rapid Transit Dist., 724 F.3d 1159 (9th Cir. 2013).)

The problem remains that no explanation is more clear than race.

• Not the gender of the cops, since the female cop treated the two teens differently moving one, kneeling on the neck of the other, and the male cop did not make choices consistent with thinking himself "stronger" - unless they both concluded that "Black" = "more dangerous"

I think there are some other interesting things of note in this line of inquiry. Here are some more: the male officer, if he is supposed to be the aggressive one, observes the other teen on the couch with no restraints after the Black teen has been very secured and is no longer a threat. The male officer does nothing to secure the other fighter on the couch even when the teen pleads to be cuffed.

Another aspect is what police would normally do after observation of a crime in progress: secure suspects, search and seizure--like checking pockets for drugs and weapons or at least asking about that and assessing the persons for dangerous weapons, id'ing the persons, checking names against warrants, missing persons, and records etc. There was a non-zero probability that either teen could be wanted, flee, or have a weapon and there is a procedure to follow, whatever it is.

The ad hoc gender hypothesis applies over a short period of time and then is inconsistent with the data for the reason you mention--the female officer acting against the Black teen--but then also the male officer not acting against the other teen and both officers seeming to not follow protocol consistently.

 

[laughing dog]

As insane as feminist institutional capture has gotten, I do know that men will step up when they are needed, and that includes carrying unconscious bodies out of a burning building where women do not possess the strength to do so.

Please do not volunteer your thoughts about feminist "capture", because you are consistently wrong about them, and you never take feedback on your wrongness.

I wasn't talking to you.

Irrelevant to the issue. BTW, it is a public forum. You are free to accept or ignore advice or requests.