Policies that will reduce abortions - a collaborative look

[Rhea]

This thread is intended to be collaborative - NOT an argument about whether abortion is right or wrong. Please participate if you have ideas comments and questions that PROMOTE shared solutions. There are other threads for the topic of arguing about the morals of abortions.


The question is, what can be done to reduce abortions that can be enacted without having “solved” the issue of whether abortion is acceptable or not?

What can be done to reduce abortions without waiting for that argument to be resolved?


Back-up data:
Almost 90% of abortions are performed in the first 3 months.
61% of unintended pregnancies result in abortion
Why do women choose abortion? For many it is because of the inability (not lack of desire) to manage parenthood.

The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%). Nearly four in 10 women said they had completed their childbearing, and almost one-third were not ready to have a child. Fewer than 1% said their parents' or partners' desire for them to have an abortion was the most important reason. Younger women often reported that they were unprepared for the transition to motherhood, while older women regularly cited their responsibility to dependents.

So given this information, what can we do to reduce abortions?

Many people on the pro-choice side want policies that will reduce or eliminate these fears or unwinnable choices.

From a discussion in the morals forum, this line of thought was explored (I’ve edited out the contentious bits as distracting)

If help is needed by the mother after birth then it should be available. Whether it be medical, help with supplies, be shown what to do, mentoring etc. This is where the father has his role to play.
We haven't really been discussing that. Far more attention, or inattention, has been given to pre-birth rather than post-birth.

Indeed that is exactly true.
You’ve put your finger right on it, Tigers!


And as soon as you accomplish that goal - for which you will have the complete support and energy of almost all pro-choicers!) then you will find that abortions are magically diminished within 3 months of you achieving that post-birth support.

"if you are pro life, look at this list of things that we can walk together with in reducing abortions. No pro-choice person will fight you on any of it and it will reduce abortions much more sharply in the short and medium and long term without increasing illegal-abortion related deaths.

Why not walk together to reduce the fears and dangers of pregnancy and parenthood first? We can run together hand in hand towards those goals and you get reduction in abortions and we get better lives for those children.

Once we have made abortion rare through education and preemptive birth control, death in and surrounding childbirth unheard of, immediate concern for the pregnant person's health a matter of course, then we could have this discussion again."

So let’s explore a list of legislation that would reduce abortions (very fast - within 120 days of enacting the legislation) and be agreeable to the stated positions of both pro-choice and anti-abortion advocates.

 

[Rhea]

I’ll start with some prompts that can be discussed in more detail:
In this list the term “Free” means taxpayer funded, free at point of service. It is of course not “free” but that is the shorthand used here.

1. Free prenatal care for woman
2. Free delivery
3. Free post-natal care for woman and baby
4. Free lactation support including loaner pumps
5. Free child medical attention
6. Free/reduced childcare for working parents
7. Free access to mental health providers
8. Free/reduced food for infants and children

All of these will eliminate the need for abortions for any who are choosing it because of lack of resources. Those would be great abortions to eliminate, right?

Now this list will reduce unplanned pregnancies:

1. Comprehensive sexuality education
2. Free and accessible long-acting reversible contraception
3. Funded research for male long acting reversible contraceptives
4. Free sexuality counseling (how to say ‘no’ when you want to, how to hear ‘no’ when it’s said) for those seeking help

If the goal is to reduce abortions, all of these will help. And experiments have been done that show they are extremely effective. Their use means that illegal abortions are also reduced.

 

[steve_bank]

I generally agre especialy on sex ed, just substitute 'tax payer' for free.

 

[TomC]

If the goal is to reduce abortions, all of these will help.

Before I start nitpicking let me say,
I support everything in your posts and I have for years.

The UHC, sex ed, and Planned Parenthood parts in particular. Access to health care, sex ed, and contraceptives are a bare minimum.
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Everything in the thread so far.

All of it.

I would add, as shallow as it is, making this a talking point in any discussion that touches on abortion.

I expect that most people are mostly right most of the time and this is more than mostly right and most people can see that.

Make sure people know that they can caucus and decide on party platforms. It can't be said enough that this mindset is one in which we can all run hand in hand through the fields to where we wish to be if we quit letting people make us fight over something we are twenty to fifty years off from being ready to discuss earnestly.

Just making it clear that pro-choice is now and is for the foreseeable future the only pro-life option will do wonders, I expect.

Because the solution we need today is honestly to get people understanding that we can only be honestly pro-life together and exactly the things that have already been discussed are very important.

In short, having this discussion instead of the other discussion in the other threads we are not going to have here is the only other thing, and it's not the least of them for sure.

 

[prideandfall]

1. actively de-stigmatize birth control for men.
that it's so frowned-upon for a man to get his nuts snipped is insane to me, given that it's something you can do in 15 minutes as an out-patient with little to no side effects most of the time, and it's permanent and causes no physiological changes.

2. de-emphasize the breeding worship in our culture.
#1 above couldn't happen if we retain our insane obsession with spawning as much as possible, and the cultural attitude that being able to fire out children like your twat is a t-shirt cannon is the highest praise one can give to a couple.
it's been over a decade now and people still react strangely if it comes up that i got a vasectomy, most commonly people either going "ugh what? why? how strange" or people nodding along like they think it's this fantastic idea that they would never do themselves.

3. sterilization for all!
there's gotta be some way to convince everyone that vasectomies are fashionable, and that not having one is weird and gross (like how most people feel about uncircumcised dicks) so that men are socially pressured to get them without having to create a law mandating it.
also, jfc we need to stop refusing to allow women to get their tubes tied. right now that's a thing... if you're a woman, you *cannot* get sterilized in this country, nobody will do it. not for medical reasons, not for safety or any logistical health issue, but just "because"

 

[Jarhyn]

1. actively de-stigmatize birth control for men.
that it's so frowned-upon for a man to get his nuts snipped is insane to me, given that it's something you can do in 15 minutes as an out-patient with little to no side effects most of the time, and it's permanent and causes no physiological changes.

2. de-emphasize the breeding worship in our culture.
#1 above couldn't happen if we retain our insane obsession with spawning as much as possible, and the cultural attitude that being able to fire out children like your twat is a t-shirt cannon is the highest praise one can give to a couple.
it's been over a decade now and people still react strangely if it comes up that i got a vasectomy, most commonly people either going "ugh what? why? how strange" or people nodding along like they think it's this fantastic idea that they would never do themselves.

3. sterilization for all!
there's gotta be some way to convince everyone that vasectomies are fashionable, and that not having one is weird and gross (like how most people feel about uncircumcised dicks) so that men are socially pressured to get them without having to create a law mandating it.
also, jfc we need to stop refusing to allow women to get their tubes tied. right now that's a thing... if you're a woman, you *cannot* get sterilized in this country, nobody will do it. not for medical reasons, not for safety or any logistical health issue, but just "because"

For #3, I think it's a mix of liability and just not knowing where to go. Last I knew /r/childfree in reddit trades deets on doctors who will get the job done.

 

[prideandfall]

For #3, I think it's a mix of liability and just not knowing where to go. Last I knew /r/childfree in reddit trades deets on doctors who will get the job done.

i have the good fortune of knowing at least a few women who are as anti-children as i am so i've had this conversation with them, which is what prompted that comment.
i've been told by multiple people in their 20s and 30s that they shopped around for years trying to get someone to tie their tubes, and doctor's offices will just flat out refuse to do it.

i'm sure there are some that will, i'm not saying it's a physical impossibility, but a woman should be able to stroll into a dentist's office and have them sterilize her if she wants it.

 

[Jarhyn]

For #3, I think it's a mix of liability and just not knowing where to go. Last I knew /r/childfree in reddit trades deets on doctors who will get the job done.

i have the good fortune of knowing at least a few women who are as anti-children as i am so i've had this conversation with them, which is what prompted that comment.
i've been told by multiple people in their 20s and 30s that they shopped around for years trying to get someone to tie their tubes, and doctor's offices will just flat out refuse to do it.

i'm sure there are some that will, i'm not saying it's a physical impossibility, but a woman should be able to stroll into a dentist's office and have them sterilize her if she wants it.

Oh no, there might be one or two names in an entire big city of doctors.

As I said, word of mouth on the few who will is invaluable. The childfree subreddit is a good place to start with asking or searching.

 

[Toni]

I know a number of women who were absolutely adamant that they did not want children—right up until they met the right person (their words) and found that indeed, they wanted marriage, children etc. this is NOT to say that there are not many young women who never change their minds about not wanting kids. It’s just a big reason doctors are reluctant to perform sterilizations —which must be taken as permanent—on young women: some women never change their minds, but some do.

Affordable housing, flexible work schedule and perhaps UBI would also help. Parental leave should be a minimum of 3 months and frankly, a year is better. For both parents. Paid.

Frankly our entire US society needs to be more family friendly.

 

[steve_bank]

One thing to add is instilling the understanding of actions and consequences.

A girl or r woman who carries to term without the ability to support the baby becomes a burden on socity.

Inside The School Pregnancy Pact That Allegedly Led A Teen To Beg A Homeless Man To Father Her Baby

Teen pregnancy can be a controversial matter, involving conversations regarding sex education, contraception, and responsibility. In June of 2008, when 18 Massachusetts teens got pregnant in an alleged "pact," the sleepy fishing town of Gloucester exploded in a moral panic. The Gloucester teen...

www.ranker.com

Teen pregnancy can be a controversial matter, involving conversations regarding sex education, contraception, and responsibility. In June of 2008, when 18 Massachusetts teens got pregnant in an alleged "pact," the sleepy fishing town of Gloucester exploded in a moral panic.


The Gloucester teen pregnancies became a national scandal after a Time magazine piece revealed the backstory. Reportedly, the principal of Gloucester High School claimed that many sophomore girls deliberately got impregnated so that they could be mothers together. He also maintained that at least one student pursued a 24-year-old homeless man to father her child.


In the tight-knit Irish-Catholic community, the blame-game began. Sex education was suggestively lacking, yet so were prospective futures for the oft-bored youth. Parents blamed the media while school health officials blamed the hospital board for lack of resources. During this time, teen pregnancies at Gloucester High School quadrupled since the previous year.

What about mandating education for parents?

Most teens get pregnant on purpose because other life goals seem out of reach, says Cornell researcher | Cornell Chronicle

"Many teenage pregnancies aren't accidental but intentional because of girls who see no life goals other than being a mother as realistically within their reach," says Andrea Parrot, Ph.D., a Cornell University women's health and human sexuality expert.

news.cornell.edu

ITHACA, N.Y. -- "Many teenage pregnancies aren't accidental but intentional because of girls who see no life goals other than being a mother as realistically within their reach," says Andrea Parrot, Ph.D., a Cornell University women's health and human sexuality expert.


That's a major reason why most current sex and pregnancy prevention education efforts "are ineffective at preventing teenage pregnancy and the U.S. has an outrageous teen pregnancy rate -- the highest in the industrialized world," said Parrot, associate professor in the Department of Policy Analysis and Management in Cornell's College of Human Ecology.


In the recent Cornell Cooperative Extension teleconference Women's Health Across the Generations, which was downlinked to 15 sites across New York state in February, Parrot advocated wider use of long-term, multi-dimensional, community-based programs that have proven successful because they offer hope for a brighter future and the means to achieve life goals other than motherhood.

It is not just about sex ed and services, it is about where the culture is at. There is no longer any social stigma for a girl or adult single parent mother.

 

[Jarhyn]

I think trying support rather than stigmatize single parents in our society so that children can grow up in a world where can be successful no matter how single they are, nd children don't grow up thinking their mom is defective by the way people look down on them, might be better.

We can afford SO much more for our society, and our children.

We have more than enough housing.

We have plenty of food that does already go to waste.

We have enough energy.

We have enough people to become teachers.

We have enough people to man every station of our society for every child who is born.

I say we do that, look at how much of that we can or should support, and then make the decision on whether we should require the result.

Stigma will just make a single pregnant person feel like their option is to abort, lest they be seen as the single parent that some would stigmatize. It won't reduce abortions, it will increase them.

Seeing a light where they can be a successful parent and this won't be the end of their world to bring someone new into it, that might keep an abortion from happening.

 

[steve_bank]

Instilling awareness of consequences a sense of responsibility versus if you get pregnant not to worry ?

In the 70s if I had gotten a woman pregnant it would have been bad for me, the kid, and the woman. I was irresponsible and was all about sex and intoxication.. I was a poster boy for promoting sex ed in primary education, and I was not alone in my generation.

If a girl got pregnant responsibility was usually placed on the girl not the guy. Boys will be boys but girls will be tramps to put it coarsely. That was the culture.

Shoud natyone be bale to get pregnant and expect finacial support?

There have been cases f extreme gaming of the welfare system. Women who get pregnant multiple times with no hope of being able to supprt them.

 

[Jarhyn]

If getting pregnant means you have to worry, then you will abort rather than remain pregnant.

The whole thrust of the thread is to prevent that.

Quit trying to control pregnant people.

Situations like this:

Women who get pregnant multiple times with no hope of being able to supprt them

Are why CPS exists.

 

[bilby]

Instilling awareness of consequences a sense of responsibility versus if you get pregnant not to worry ?

In the 70s if I had gotten a woman pregnant it would have been bad for me, the kid, and the woman. I was irresponsible and was all about sex and intoxication.. I was a poster boy for promoting sex ed in primary education, and I was not alone in my generation.

If a girl got pregnant responsibility was usually placed on the girl not the guy. Boys will be boys but girls will be tramps to put it coarsely. That was the culture.

Shoud natyone be bale to get pregnant and expect finacial support?

There have been cases f extreme gaming of the welfare system. Women who get pregnant multiple times with no hope of being able to supprt them.

You’re right, the twentieth century was utterly shit.

Fortunately we will never live there again.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Long term contraception should be free. (Yes, I generally dislike free but in this case it's inherently self-limiting, there's no way it's going to be exploited.)

Coin-op condom dispensers should be widespread--and at a subsidized rate.

 

[prideandfall]

There have been cases f extreme gaming of the welfare system. Women who get pregnant multiple times with no hope of being able to supprt them.

so what? let them. who gives a shit?

do you have *any* concept of how much resource wealth the US economy generates each year? currently it's roughly around 20 trillion dollars.
trillion. with a T.
how many women are there in this country who are realistically going to actively destroy their bodies in order to game the welfare system for incredibly minimal gains? tell you what i'll give your argument the biggest benefit of the doubt possible and say 50,000 - though that number is astronomically insane.

let's say that every year that game the system for the maximum child tax credit of about 3600 dollars = 180,000,000.
that is less than half of the price of the yacht jeff bezos bought. that is less than 10% of the city of new york's annual police budget.
that is absolutely fuck-all in terms of social output, so who gives a single shit?

if we have to spend an extra 180 million to people who game the system in order to ensure that *millions* of children grow up with adequate financial support, what kind of an absolute sack of shit would oppose that?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I’ll start with some prompts that can be discussed in more detail:
In this list the term “Free” means taxpayer funded, free at point of service. It is of course not “free” but that is the shorthand used here.

1. Free prenatal care for woman
2. Free delivery
3. Free post-natal care for woman and baby
4. Free lactation support including loaner pumps
5. Free child medical attention
6. Free/reduced childcare for working parents
7. Free access to mental health providers
8. Free/reduced food for infants and children

All of these will eliminate the need for abortions for any who are choosing it because of lack of resources. Those would be great abortions to eliminate, right?

Now this list will reduce unplanned pregnancies:

1. Comprehensive sexuality education
2. Free and accessible long-acting reversible contraception
3. Funded research for male long acting reversible contraceptives
4. Free sexuality counseling (how to say ‘no’ when you want to, how to hear ‘no’ when it’s said) for those seeking help

If the goal is to reduce abortions, all of these will help. And experiments have been done that show they are extremely effective. Their use means that illegal abortions are also reduced.

Free female and male de-pregger surgeries for the older people.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Instilling awareness of consequences a sense of responsibility versus if you get pregnant not to worry ?

In the 70s if I had gotten a woman pregnant it would have been bad for me, the kid, and the woman. I was irresponsible and was all about sex and intoxication.. I was a poster boy for promoting sex ed in primary education, and I was not alone in my generation.

If a girl got pregnant responsibility was usually placed on the girl not the guy. Boys will be boys but girls will be tramps to put it coarsely. That was the culture.

Shoud natyone be bale to get pregnant and expect finacial support?

There have been cases f extreme gaming of the welfare system. Women who get pregnant multiple times with no hope of being able to supprt them.

If society feels that there is a moral imperative that forces women to have babies, that moral imperative is a two way street.

Otherwise, this has nothing to do with morality and everything to do with control and punishing women. But that is going off topic.

 

[Rhea]

Is there a need to re-word things to get the anti abortion crowd on board? Are there ways to get the journey on these started?