Poll: 1 in 5 blacks report 'unfair' dealings with police in last month

[RavenSky]

Living in England, I obviously have little idea about normal life in the US, but I find it hard to imagine that 1 in 5 blacks even had dealings with the police in the last 30 days, let alone unfair dealings. I even find it hard to believe the 3% 'unfair' figure for whites.

For most people in the UK, I am sure years go by before they have any dealings with police, and I'm sure the majority of these dealings are not 'unfair'. Let's say that 1 in 3 dealings are unfair (and it's probably much fewer than that), then the 3% 'unfair' dealings for white people would seem to imply that most white people have some dealing with the police every year. Can that be true?

I think it is possible. Uniformed police are everywhere, and I probably encounter at least one a week, if not more. Every time there is a sporting event or a concert downtown, there are police directing traffic and pedestrians. Most of those encounters will not be negative (hence even 80% of encounters between police and black people are not negative), but every one of those encounters could end up being negative. Look at what happened to me last October just trying to get to my building from the parking garage

 

[coloradoatheist]

Living in England, I obviously have little idea about normal life in the US, but I find it hard to imagine that 1 in 5 blacks even had dealings with the police in the last 30 days, let alone unfair dealings. I even find it hard to believe the 3% 'unfair' figure for whites.

For most people in the UK, I am sure years go by before they have any dealings with police, and I'm sure the majority of these dealings are not 'unfair'. Let's say that 1 in 3 dealings are unfair (and it's probably much fewer than that), then the 3% 'unfair' dealings for white people would seem to imply that most white people have some dealing with the police every year. Can that be true?

I think it is possible. Uniformed police are everywhere, and I probably encounter at least one a week, if not more. Every time there is a sporting event or a concert downtown, there are police directing traffic and pedestrians. Most of those encounters will not be negative (hence even 80% of encounters between police and black people are not negative), but every one of those encounters could end up being negative. Look at what happened to me last October just trying to get to my building from the parking garage

So encounters where you are actually involved with the police are bad? I see cops drive by on the street but I wouldn't call them an encounter. I wouldn't see passing a police officer at a stadium is an encounter either.

 

[prideandfall]

Ah, the bigotry of low expectations.

ah, the bigotry of denying how a subset of the population was systematically oppressed for 300 years and is still heavily disadvantaged, and that has consequences.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Living in England, I obviously have little idea about normal life in the US, but I find it hard to imagine that 1 in 5 blacks even had dealings with the police in the last 30 days, let alone unfair dealings. I even find it hard to believe the 3% 'unfair' figure for whites.

For most people in the UK, I am sure years go by before they have any dealings with police, and I'm sure the majority of these dealings are not 'unfair'. Let's say that 1 in 3 dealings are unfair (and it's probably much fewer than that), then the 3% 'unfair' dealings for white people would seem to imply that most white people have some dealing with the police every year. Can that be true?

I think it is possible. Uniformed police are everywhere, and I probably encounter at least one a week, if not more. Every time there is a sporting event or a concert downtown, there are police directing traffic and pedestrians. Most of those encounters will not be negative (hence even 80% of encounters between police and black people are not negative), but every one of those encounters could end up being negative. Look at what happened to me last October just trying to get to my building from the parking garage

Same here. I talk to cops at least once a month.

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Ah, the bigotry of low expectations.

ah, the bigotry of denying how a subset of the population was systematically oppressed for 300 years and is still heavily disadvantaged, and that has consequences.

It's not just that, these folks have been pushed to the margin and have barriers to getting good jobs and social mobility.

 

[EricK]

Living in England, I obviously have little idea about normal life in the US, but I find it hard to imagine that 1 in 5 blacks even had dealings with the police in the last 30 days, let alone unfair dealings. I even find it hard to believe the 3% 'unfair' figure for whites.

For most people in the UK, I am sure years go by before they have any dealings with police, and I'm sure the majority of these dealings are not 'unfair'. Let's say that 1 in 3 dealings are unfair (and it's probably much fewer than that), then the 3% 'unfair' dealings for white people would seem to imply that most white people have some dealing with the police every year. Can that be true?

I think it is possible. Uniformed police are everywhere, and I probably encounter at least one a week, if not more. Every time there is a sporting event or a concert downtown, there are police directing traffic and pedestrians. Most of those encounters will not be negative (hence even 80% of encounters between police and black people are not negative), but every one of those encounters could end up being negative. Look at what happened to me last October just trying to get to my building from the parking garage

But look at the other similar questions:

Unfair dealings due to race in a restaurant, bar, theatre or other place of entertainment in last 30 days:
Whites: 6%
Blacks: 24% (that's 1 in 4!)

Unfair dealings due to race while shopping in last 30 days:
Whites: 8%
Blacks: 33% (that's 1 in 3!)

Never mind the figures for blacks, are these figures for white people even remotely plausible? 8% of them were treated unfairly due to their race in a shop in the last 30 days? Seriously? That's basically once per year on average for every white American. And remember, it's not just being treated unfairly, but unfairly due to their race.

 

[RavenSky]

I think it is possible. Uniformed police are everywhere, and I probably encounter at least one a week, if not more. Every time there is a sporting event or a concert downtown, there are police directing traffic and pedestrians. Most of those encounters will not be negative (hence even 80% of encounters between police and black people are not negative), but every one of those encounters could end up being negative. Look at what happened to me last October just trying to get to my building from the parking garage

So encounters where you are actually involved with the police are bad? I see cops drive by on the street but I wouldn't call them an encounter. I wouldn't see passing a police officer at a stadium is an encounter either.

I would consider an "encounter" as any one wherein I had any sort of an exchange with the police officer. I did say anything about "cops drive by on the street" But when they are directing pedestrians or doing bag searches at the various events, then yes I would consider that an "encounter" and I suspect most people would.

MOST of those encounters are fine for me, just as they are 80% of the time per the poll in the OP. I attended a memorial event for the Orlando victims a few weeks back. There was heavy police presence there. All of my encounters that evening were positive, including smiles and polite conversation.

Likewise, many time I have had mounted police pose for photos, police officers who have pleasantly given me directions, even two detectives who went far above and beyond to recover my stolen property.

Unfortunately, I have also had far too many of the just plain bullshit encounters, too. The one last October was a particularly egregious example.

 

[coloradoatheist]

So encounters where you are actually involved with the police are bad? I see cops drive by on the street but I wouldn't call them an encounter. I wouldn't see passing a police officer at a stadium is an encounter either.

I would consider an "encounter" as any one wherein I had any sort of an exchange with the police officer. I did say anything about "cops drive by on the street" But when they are directing pedestrians or doing bag searches at the various events, then yes I would consider that an "encounter" and I suspect most people would.

MOST of those encounters are fine for me, just as they are 80% of the time per the poll in the OP. I attended a memorial event for the Orlando victims a few weeks back. There was heavy police presence there. All of my encounters that evening were positive, including smiles and polite conversation.

Likewise, many time I have had mounted police pose for photos, police officers who have pleasantly given me directions, even two detectives who went far above and beyond to recover my stolen property.

Unfortunately, I have also had far too many of the just plain bullshit encounters, too. The one last October was a particularly egregious example.

The question was "unfair dealings" with cops, not just encounters. So to me dealings mean more than just getting waved through by a cop. I think this was just a poorly worded study and didn't actually go to any detail to understand anything.

 

[RavenSky]

I would consider an "encounter" as any one wherein I had any sort of an exchange with the police officer. I did say anything about "cops drive by on the street" But when they are directing pedestrians or doing bag searches at the various events, then yes I would consider that an "encounter" and I suspect most people would.

MOST of those encounters are fine for me, just as they are 80% of the time per the poll in the OP. I attended a memorial event for the Orlando victims a few weeks back. There was heavy police presence there. All of my encounters that evening were positive, including smiles and polite conversation.

Likewise, many time I have had mounted police pose for photos, police officers who have pleasantly given me directions, even two detectives who went far above and beyond to recover my stolen property.

Unfortunately, I have also had far too many of the just plain bullshit encounters, too. The one last October was a particularly egregious example.

The question was "unfair dealings" with cops, not just encounters. So to me dealings mean more than just getting waved through by a cop.

You have to encounter the police officer to get to the "unfair dealing" part.

Last October, the cop should have simply "waved [me] through", and had she I wouldn't have even considered it an "encounter" much less and "unfair dealing".

I think this was just a poorly worded study and didn't actually go to any detail to understand anything.

That I agree with

ETA: Reading the actual study itself, however - it does have interesting information https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2600623-kff-cnn-race-topline-final.html

 

[coloradoatheist]

So to get anything useful, I think they need to actually do something just based on the questions about cops. That question was like question 20 of 25 and it was a minor question and it was done after getting people to think of it.

 

[fromderinside]

Personal example from a small Oregon village. Well trained and certified police officer with more than 30 years experience and I have a smile and wave relationship. Yet, this same officer stopped the only black lad on the town baseball team (I coached) demanded to know where he got that "nice glove and new bat" which were neither that nice nor new. The kid was ten years old!! He had let other kids with gloves and bats just walk by with no more than 'goget them fellas".

Its in the social structure more definitive than breathing that if they don't look like me they are probably wrong doers somehow.

Since I also coached on the west side of the SF Valley befor I moved up here I can testify things are no different on that level. What's worse if someone finds out one has been exposed to something nasty like Aids virus people form posses to "get them away from my kids". Its in the nature of people to be cruel to those who are different.

Its in the laws, in the social systems, in the psyches, to fear, discriminate against, different. No protestation will nullify that fact.

All good people can do is find it root it out, change it, anywhere it shows up. If we don't we'll be doomed to do what is happening in the ME, SA, and most of Asia right now. We'll suffer the consequences of hatred in our loss of civility and community.

No one should protest that people who are different are not being discriminated against. The challenge is to keep remedying such shit when it appears even if we feel the same as others around us.

 

[laughing dog]

Independent agency - the decision to commit the crime which draws the police to the neighborhood. Thus, higher interaction. No crime, and the cops will stay in the doughnut shop.

Or - independent agency - the decision to act unfairly to blacks whenever you meet them. Thus higher incidence of unfairness. Interesting how you focus on only one aspect and deny the other. Hmmm, I wonder why that would be.

 

[coloradoatheist]

The question was "unfair dealings" with cops, not just encounters. So to me dealings mean more than just getting waved through by a cop.

You have to encounter the police officer to get to the "unfair dealing" part.

Last October, the cop should have simply "waved [me] through", and had she I wouldn't have even considered it an "encounter" much less and "unfair dealing".

I think this was just a poorly worded study and didn't actually go to any detail to understand anything.

That I agree with

ETA: Reading the actual study itself, however - it does have interesting information https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2600623-kff-cnn-race-topline-final.html

But even to judge that anectdote as being unfair would be tough but it doesn't mean that it was an unfair or wrong decision because you thought it was.

 

[Metaphor]

The thread title is misleading -- it should read that 1 in 5 blacks who have had dealings with police in the last month report 'unfairness' due to their race

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As I said in the other thread, "disproportionate" is a disingenuous term here. Blacks also tend to commit a disproportionate number of crimes. So why should their interactions with police be no more than their population proportion?

There goes Derec, blaming black people again (and torturing the field of statistics to do it)

Except he's not torturing the statistics. Showing blacks are stopped disproportionate to their number in the population proves nothing. It's only of interest if they're stopped disproportionate to the offenses committed--and considering all offenses. (So, if a guy is stopped for speeding but doesn't pay the fine and is later stopped for the outstanding warrant that's two offenses, not one.)

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As I said in the other thread, "disproportionate" is a disingenuous term here. Blacks also tend to commit a disproportionate number of crimes. So why should their interactions with police be no more than their population proportion?

Do black people actually commit more crimes or are they just targeted more often by the legal system and so are caught more often?

In most cases the legal system isn't targeting other than based on being a suspect. About the only crimes for which targeting could matter are those related to the location it's committed at. The only things that come to mind are drug buys and sting operations.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Plus, as Trautsi pointed out, it isn't just a matter of the person interacting with the cop having committed a crime. It is a matter of whether they live, work, or hang out in areas with high rates of reported crimes (which blacks unquestionably do). That will trigger more interactions with the police, even when they are not themselves under suspicion. And since many blacks presume extreme near constant racist motives by police, those people would presume that any interaction they every have with a cop was "unfair" and triggered only due to their race. IOW, the OP study is meaningless and measures nothing objective, only subjective perceptions of a vague variably defined "fairness" that is highly influenced by the respondents worldview and presumptions, which we already know differ between blacks and whites.

Oh, and it even worse than that. The study didn't even ask about "unfairness" in general but specifically and only "unfairness due to your race/ethnic background". IOW, they asked people to read the minds of the police they interacted with and infer their motives driving whatever subjectively perceived "unfairness" they thought was there. Not only would a priori presumptions determine the subjective perception of unfairness, but would be THE primary if not only determinant of whether that unfairness was attributed to the unobservable psychological motive of racism.

Yup. Look hard enough for discrimination and you'll find it whether it exists or not.

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Perhaps, as with all people, it's easier to blame a perceived outsider than admit that the problem is homegrown. Maybe that's why BLM protests seem only to erupt if the killer of a black person is non-black; when 300+ black people die in Chicago in six months at the hands of other black people, just shrugs. It ought to come as no surprise that police mighty act differently in a black neighborhood versus a non-black neighborhoods, as one would smartly adjust behavior in a lion's den versus a cat cafe. To improve relations with the cops, black neighborhoods should give the cops little to police.

How about answering the actual question "So what is an acceptable level of civilian feeling of being treated unfairly by the police regardless of the perceived reason? " instead of repeating your kneejerk memes?

It's a stupid question as the main factor involved has nothing to do with the cops. Harp on "the cops are unfair to blacks!" and you'll see a high rate of perceived misdeeds regardless of the actual level.

 

[laughing dog]

Yup. Look hard enough for discrimination and you'll find it whether it exists or not.

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Perhaps, as with all people, it's easier to blame a perceived outsider than admit that the problem is homegrown. Maybe that's why BLM protests seem only to erupt if the killer of a black person is non-black; when 300+ black people die in Chicago in six months at the hands of other black people, just shrugs. It ought to come as no surprise that police mighty act differently in a black neighborhood versus a non-black neighborhoods, as one would smartly adjust behavior in a lion's den versus a cat cafe. To improve relations with the cops, black neighborhoods should give the cops little to police.

How about answering the actual question "So what is an acceptable level of civilian feeling of being treated unfairly by the police regardless of the perceived reason? " instead of repeating your kneejerk memes?

It's a stupid question as the main factor involved has nothing to do with the cops. Harp on "the cops are unfair to blacks!" and you'll see a high rate of perceived misdeeds regardless of the actual level.

Your post is completely non-responsive for two reasons:
1) My question did not specify race - it referred to civilians, and
2) You have no clue what the main factor(s) in people's perceptions of how they are treated by the police.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Living in England, I obviously have little idea about normal life in the US, but I find it hard to imagine that 1 in 5 blacks even had dealings with the police in the last 30 days, let alone unfair dealings. I even find it hard to believe the 3% 'unfair' figure for whites.

For most people in the UK, I am sure years go by before they have any dealings with police, and I'm sure the majority of these dealings are not 'unfair'. Let's say that 1 in 3 dealings are unfair (and it's probably much fewer than that), then the 3% 'unfair' dealings for white people would seem to imply that most white people have some dealing with the police every year. Can that be true?

Yeah--I would say I've had maybe 10 dealings with police (not counting a few cases of going up to them and asking questions) in my life. One involved being yelled at but that was my bad, I accidentally blocked the cop in for the duration of a traffic light. The only other time there was any hostility involved police behind the Iron Curtain, not in the US.

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Living in England, I obviously have little idea about normal life in the US, but I find it hard to imagine that 1 in 5 blacks even had dealings with the police in the last 30 days, let alone unfair dealings. I even find it hard to believe the 3% 'unfair' figure for whites.

For most people in the UK, I am sure years go by before they have any dealings with police, and I'm sure the majority of these dealings are not 'unfair'. Let's say that 1 in 3 dealings are unfair (and it's probably much fewer than that), then the 3% 'unfair' dealings for white people would seem to imply that most white people have some dealing with the police every year. Can that be true?

I think it is possible. Uniformed police are everywhere, and I probably encounter at least one a week, if not more. Every time there is a sporting event or a concert downtown, there are police directing traffic and pedestrians. Most of those encounters will not be negative (hence even 80% of encounters between police and black people are not negative), but every one of those encounters could end up being negative. Look at what happened to me last October just trying to get to my building from the parking garage

Ok, I wasn't counting traffic direction because that's not focused on the person--I have a hard time calling it "interaction".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I think it is possible. Uniformed police are everywhere, and I probably encounter at least one a week, if not more. Every time there is a sporting event or a concert downtown, there are police directing traffic and pedestrians. Most of those encounters will not be negative (hence even 80% of encounters between police and black people are not negative), but every one of those encounters could end up being negative. Look at what happened to me last October just trying to get to my building from the parking garage

But look at the other similar questions:

Unfair dealings due to race in a restaurant, bar, theatre or other place of entertainment in last 30 days:
Whites: 6%
Blacks: 24% (that's 1 in 4!)

Unfair dealings due to race while shopping in last 30 days:
Whites: 8%
Blacks: 33% (that's 1 in 3!)

Never mind the figures for blacks, are these figures for white people even remotely plausible? 8% of them were treated unfairly due to their race in a shop in the last 30 days? Seriously? That's basically once per year on average for every white American. And remember, it's not just being treated unfairly, but unfairly due to their race.

Yeah, I don't believe it, either.

In the US I'm aware of only two incidents where I was treated unfairly due to my race:

1) House hunting. Our agent told us that we wouldn't be able to see a certain house because the listing agent only would show to orientals. (And not even oriental/white couples like us.)

2) A Chinese store tried to double charge me (note that it used to be an official policy in China that foreigners were charged double.) Strangely enough, now that they know I'm married to a Chinese I have had a few incidents of being undercharged!

That doesn't even add up to once per decade, let alone once per year.

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So encounters where you are actually involved with the police are bad? I see cops drive by on the street but I wouldn't call them an encounter. I wouldn't see passing a police officer at a stadium is an encounter either.

I would consider an "encounter" as any one wherein I had any sort of an exchange with the police officer. I did say anything about "cops drive by on the street" But when they are directing pedestrians or doing bag searches at the various events, then yes I would consider that an "encounter" and I suspect most people would.

I would count a bag search (although I have never encountered one at the hands of the police. I've had it done a couple of times by security guards, and several times by airport security--but those aren't police.), I would not count merely being directed as part of the flow of pedestrians. The key element to me is one-on-one.

 

[RavenSky]

There goes Derec, blaming black people again (and torturing the field of statistics to do it)

Except he's not torturing the statistics. Showing blacks are stopped disproportionate to their number in the population proves nothing. It's only of interest if they're stopped disproportionate to the offenses committed--and considering all offenses. (So, if a guy is stopped for speeding but doesn't pay the fine and is later stopped for the outstanding warrant that's two offenses, not one.)

And then it goes back to studies showing that blacks are disproportionately stopped in the first place. Two people speeding, only the black guy is pulled over.