Praise, Worship, Faith - Hosanna in the highest

[Rhea]

Politesse, I enoy a good discussion and decontruction as much as the next infidel, but your reponses so far seem limited to “they are not!!”

Here’s the genesis of the post:

Today’s Christians; Progressive as well as conservative, Catholic, Lutheran, protestant, whatever, make all of the claims in the OP and claim it’s a beautiful religion.


It’s on my mind because all of my Christian friends are all PRAISE BE! this weekend, and orgasming over the worship they are gladly giving to a god who thrives on it, who needs it in order to mark them off as dutiful, and which praise and obedience is necessary to honor the sacrifice that was given so they won’t be punished by missing out on heaven, either in oblivion or hell for failing to believe and worship and praise.

That this happens, it’s real, people think and act this way, and really, yeah, the bible does say it (we know Christians will always be all, “well it doesn’t say thaaaaaat,” until they need to bludgeon us with it and then, yeah they agree it says exactly that,) is a reality.

Your responses have been to NOT discuss any of that and to instead say, “they do not!”

So if you want to have an insightful discussion, you have to actually discuss the opening premise.

And you can say all you want that you know better than me what my experience with Christians has been, but until you have been in the room when a woman stands up and points her finger at me and bellows, “YOU WILL ANSWER TO GOD FOR THIS!” * you’re not really in a position to say what my local Christians do and do not do, okay?

* where “THIS” is granting a zoning easement to a private organization without making sure they are not Muslim first.

 

[southernhybrid]

Poli has a very intellectualized cherry picked version of Christianity. While I have no issues with this variety of Christian, I do think that Poli has been a little intellectually dishonest in some of his replies here. At least that's how it appears to me. Certainly Poli must be aware that most Christians do worship Christ and most Christians use the Bible to support the obligation to worship Christ. And, since the majority of Christians believe in the concept of a trinity, God, the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, why does it matter if Jesus talks about worshiping God the Father, when Jesus is one of the versions of this god. Three gods in one is the basis for the mythology of Christianity. You can make up your own version, but that is the mainstream version that most Christians believe.

The following is a Presbyterian explanation of why Christians must worship Jesus.

http://www.westminsterconfession.org/worship/the.php

It could be assumed that the four Gospels would not provide much teaching relevant to the worship that is permanent in the church of God. The four Gospels are concerned to a large extent with what antedated the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ and their story does not extend to the event of Pentecost. It was by these pivotal events that the typical and ceremonial institution was abrogated as to its observance and it might be thought that the worship reflected on in the four Gospels would be the worship of the ceremonial economy as distinct from the worship of the New Testament. There are two observations respecting this assumption. First, it should be borne in mind that there is much in the worship of the Old Testament that bears upon the worship that abides. Many considerations establish a basic identity in the worship of both Testaments. Examples will appear in the course of this study. Second, the assumption is soon shown to be erroneous when the four Gospels are examined. There is a wealth of material directly pertinent to what is basic and essential in the worship of God and therefore indispensable in the worship the New Testament prescribes. This material may be set forth under several appropriate divisions.

I. The Worship of God
(Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8, 24:53; John 4:23-24, 9:31)

A. According to Scripture the primary principle of worship is that God alone is to be worshipped. It was our Lord himself who gave unambiguous witness to this principle and exemplified it in the ordeal of his temptation: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8).

The author of that piece goes on to explain why Christians are meant to worship Christ. Again, to me, as a person who was raised to believe in that Jesus and God are one and the same, I can see how easily most versions of Christianity would proclaim that worshiping Jesus is an essential part of their beliefs. Now, Poli may not feel this is necessary, but if one is to be totally honest, than one sees that most translations of the Christian holy book mandate that all manifestations of god are to be worshiped. Just because the Jesus version of god, doesn't literally ask to be worshiped, the assumption is there that he, like his Father, should be worshiped. Of course, imnsho, the entire thing is a pile of BS, but what else would you expect from a former Christian turned atheist?

 

[Politesse]

Poli has a very intellectualized cherry picked version of Christianity. While I have no issues with this variety of Christian, I do think that Poli has been a little intellectually dishonest in some of his replies here. At least that's how it appears to me. Certainly Poli must be aware that most Christians do worship Christ and most Christians use the Bible to support the obligation to worship Christ. And, since the majority of Christians believe in the concept of a trinity, God, the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, why does it matter if Jesus talks about worshiping God the Father, when Jesus is one of the versions of this god. Three gods in one is the basis for the mythology of Christianity. You can make up your own version, but that is the mainstream version that most Christians believe.

The following is a Presbyterian explanation of why Christians must worship Jesus.

http://www.westminsterconfession.org/worship/the.php

It could be assumed that the four Gospels would not provide much teaching relevant to the worship that is permanent in the church of God. The four Gospels are concerned to a large extent with what antedated the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ and their story does not extend to the event of Pentecost. It was by these pivotal events that the typical and ceremonial institution was abrogated as to its observance and it might be thought that the worship reflected on in the four Gospels would be the worship of the ceremonial economy as distinct from the worship of the New Testament. There are two observations respecting this assumption. First, it should be borne in mind that there is much in the worship of the Old Testament that bears upon the worship that abides. Many considerations establish a basic identity in the worship of both Testaments. Examples will appear in the course of this study. Second, the assumption is soon shown to be erroneous when the four Gospels are examined. There is a wealth of material directly pertinent to what is basic and essential in the worship of God and therefore indispensable in the worship the New Testament prescribes. This material may be set forth under several appropriate divisions.

I. The Worship of God
(Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8, 24:53; John 4:23-24, 9:31)

A. According to Scripture the primary principle of worship is that God alone is to be worshipped. It was our Lord himself who gave unambiguous witness to this principle and exemplified it in the ordeal of his temptation: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8).

The author of that piece goes on to explain why Christians are meant to worship Christ. Again, to me, as a person who was raised to believe in that Jesus and God are one and the same, I can see how easily most versions of Christianity would proclaim that worshiping Jesus is an essential part of their beliefs. Now, Poli may not feel this is necessary, but if one is to be totally honest, than one sees that most translations of the Christian holy book mandate that all manifestations of god are to be worshiped. Just because the Jesus version of god, doesn't literally ask to be worshiped, the assumption is there that he, like his Father, should be worshiped. Of course, imnsho, the entire thing is a pile of BS, but what else would you expect from a former Christian turned atheist?

But the claim in the OP is that God demanded worship, without any explanation as to why. It is meant as an assessment of God's personality - would you be friends with someone who did this? Etc. Your own link contradicts this, as all throughout many reasons are given as to why such worship is deserved, and what humanity receives in return from this reciprocal relationship that worship creates.

And I am, by the way, starting to get pissed at all the personal attacks. I don't trash talk you, don't do it to me.

 

[Underseer]

Well in fairness, Christians use a very different definition of "moral" than the rest of us.

If it is Christian, it is moral, but if it is not Christian, it is immoral.

Therefore, the Bible is moral even though it gives instructions on the right and wrong way to beat your slaves to death, but we are immoral when we complain about the Bible giving instructions on the right and wrong way to beat your slaves to death. See how that works now?

The Bible is not moral because of nor in spite of giving instructions on beating slaves to death. It is moral because it is Christian. You are not immoral because you complain about the Bible instructing people on the correct way to beat one's slaves to death, you are immoral because you are disagreeing with the Bible at all.

 

[Jobar]

Not really, no. Worship in the Hebrew Scriptures is explained as a reciprocal, even contractual affair. It's not just asked for out of the blue, there's a covenant between God and his people, in which really the people in question get the better end of the deal; they get protection and sustenance, and give in return just a fraction of the produce thus granted. In the Christian re-invention, the system is balanced even more noticeably in favor of humanity, who get an eternal prize for a momentary act of faith. Punishments are there, but not arbitrary; those punished agreed to the terms when entering into the covenant with God in the first place. It gets a little wonky when you start trying to universalize the faith all Augustine-style and apply these punishments also to non-believers, but criticizing God for this tendency makes about as much sense as being mad at Aristotle because you aren't an Aquinas fan.

Ingersoll quite disagrees about "the better end of the deal".

“When reading the history of the Jewish people, of their flight from slavery to death, of their exchange of tyrants, I must confess that my sympathies are all aroused in their behalf. They were cheated, deceived and abused. Their god was quick-tempered unreasonable, cruel, revengeful and dishonest. He was always promising but never performed. He wasted time in ceremony and childish detail, and in the exaggeration of what he had done. It is impossible for me to conceive of a character more utterly detestable than that of the Hebrew god. He had solemnly promised the Jews that he would take them from Egypt to a land flowing with milk and honey. He had led them to believe that in a little while their troubles would be over, and that they would soon in the land of Canaan, surrounded by their wives and little ones, forget the stripes and tears of Egypt. After promising the poor wanderers again and again that he would lead them in safety to the promised land of joy and plenty, this God, forgetting every promise, said to the wretches in his power:—'Your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness and your children shall wander until your carcasses be wasted.' This curse was the conclusion of the whole matter. Into this dust of death and night faded all the promises of God. Into this rottenness of wandering despair fell all the dreams of liberty and home. Millions of corpses were left to rot in the desert, and each one certified to the dishonesty of Jehovah. I cannot believe these things. They are so cruel and heartless, that my blood is chilled and my sense of justice shocked. A book that is equally abhorrent to my head and heart, cannot be accepted as a revelation from God.

When we think of the poor Jews, destroyed, murdered, bitten by serpents, visited by plagues, decimated by famine, butchered by each, other, swallowed by the earth, frightened, cursed, starved, deceived, robbed and outraged, how thankful we should be that we are not the chosen people of God. No wonder that they longed for the slavery of Egypt, and remembered with sorrow the unhappy day when they exchanged masters. Compared with Jehovah, Pharaoh was a benefactor, and the tyranny of Egypt was freedom to those who suffered the liberty of God.

While reading the Pentateuch, I am filled with indignation, pity and horror. Nothing can be sadder than the history of the starved and frightened wretches who wandered over the desolate crags and sands of wilderness and desert, the prey of famine, sword, and plague. Ignorant and superstitious to the last degree, governed by falsehood, plundered by hypocrisy, they were the sport of priests, and the food of fear. God was their greatest enemy, and death their only friend.

It is impossible to conceive of a more thoroughly despicable, hateful, and arrogant being, than the Jewish god. He is without a redeeming feature. In the mythology of the world he has no parallel. He, only, is never touched by agony and tears. He delights only in blood and pain. Human affections are naught to him. He cares neither for love nor music, beauty nor joy. A false friend, an unjust judge, a braggart, hypocrite, and tyrant, sincere in hatred, jealous, vain, and revengeful, false in promise, honest in curse, suspicious, ignorant, and changeable, infamous and hideous:—such is the God of the Pentateuch.

 

[Lion IRC]

I would be most interested to see your documentation for any of these claims.

Especially as pertains to your final condition "without any explanation".

[*]Does Jehovah like praise and worship? (First fruits, no other god before me, instructions for altars, “The father is seeking such people to worship him” (John 4:21-24), Loving the smell of the burnt offering... etc.)

Politesse is quite right.
Your Op is about undeserved worship. God does NOT say worship me - love me - for no reason.

...
[*]Does he punish you if you fail to show praise (Ask Cain, maybe)

Cain was punished for killing Abel - not for inadequate worship. He killed Abel out of jealousy that Abel's offering was better than his. You can't cite any scripture which shows God punishing Cain for slackness or failure to worship in some prescribed manner that Cain didn't even know about. Does God punish widows who don't put enough money in the collection bowl?

...
[*]Does he expect you to believe in him without explanation (Mother Theresa could answer this one for you.

No. Mother Theresa could write volumes about why God deserves our thanks and worship.

... But also see, “Faith - belief in that which you have not seen,”

Things that have not yet happened can't be seen. What else are we supposed to do but have faith, hope, belief.

...
Abraham’s idiotic willingness to slit his own son’s throat without explanation

Read the text more carefully. Abraham told Isaac God would provide the missing sacrifice - not that Isaac himself would be the sacrifice. Remember, God had earlier told Abraham that he would be provided a son and he would go on to be the father of many nations. Did Abraham really think God would take his son away? Or did he simply trust God. And showing trust in God was the point of the story - not child sacrifice/worship.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Politesse is quite right.
Your Op is about undeserved worship. God does NOT say worship me - love me - for no reason.

...
[*]Does he punish you if you fail to show praise (Ask Cain, maybe)

Cain was punished for killing Abel - not for inadequate worship. He killed Abel out of jealousy that Abel's offering was better than his. You can't cite any scripture which shows God punishing Cain for slackness or failure to worship in some prescribed manner that Cain didn't even know about. Does God punish widows who don't put enough money in the collection bowl?

...
[*]Does he expect you to believe in him without explanation (Mother Theresa could answer this one for you.

No. Mother Theresa could write volumes about why God deserves our thanks and worship.

... But also see, “Faith - belief in that which you have not seen,”

Things that have not yet happened can't be seen. What else are we supposed to do but have faith, hope, belief.

...
Abraham’s idiotic willingness to slit his own son’s throat without explanation

Read the text more carefully. Abraham told Isaac God would provide the missing sacrifice - not that Isaac himself would be the sacrifice. Remember, God had earlier told Abraham that he would be provided a son and he would go on to be the father of many nations. Did Abraham really think God would take his son away? Or did he simply trust God. And showing trust in God was the point of the story - not child sacrifice/worship.

Well, the story of Isaac teaches us that Abraham doesn’t not listen to god.

At no point in the narrative does it give an inkling of suggestion that Abraham won’t follow through. In fact the story has absolutely no meaning if he isn’t intent on following through. God is called “The Fear of Isaac” because of this story. That definitely implies Isaac thought he was going to get Marie Antoinette’d.

 

[Jobar]

The latest 'Jesus and Mo' is about Abraham.

 

[Rhea]

Politesse is quite right.
Your Op is about undeserved worship.

No it is not. I said no such thing. You just made that up.
You should be ashamed for bearing false withness.
I did not say that and I did not mean it.

God does NOT say worship me - love me - for no reason.

Oh, were you planning to attempt to say that since he deserves it then it’s not creepy and weird?
Yah, don’t bother, it’s still creepy and weird. Which is why I did not distinguish in the OP about it being deserved.

...
[*]Does he punish you if you fail to show praise (Ask Cain, maybe)

Cain was punished for killing Abel - not for inadequate worship.

Cain’s sacrifice was rejected. That is the punishment I was referring to. That punishment caused further actions. But the original punishment was being rejected by father. ASk any kid how excrutiatingly painful that is. #WalkUpNotOut

...
[*]Does he expect you to believe in him without explanation (Mother Theresa could answer this one for you.

No. Mother Theresa could write volumes about why God deserves our thanks and worship.

Better read a little more on Mother T. She questioned her faith through her entire life, wondering what she was doing wrong to have no certain sign that her faith was justified. She spoke to the pope about it. It tore her up, but she kept faith because she was supposed to keep faith.

... But also see, “Faith - belief in that which you have not seen,”

Things that have not yet happened can't be seen. What else are we supposed to do but have faith, hope, belief.

Kissing Hank’s Ass
Me:"I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the shit out of people just because they're different?"

...
Abraham’s idiotic willingness to slit his own son’s throat without explanation

[...] And showing trust in God was the point of the story

Even if you had to be willing to cut your own child’s throat to prove it. That story is disgusting. Andrea Yates but with a knife and an alter

 

[Lion IRC]

A person...

who thought they deserved praise...without any explanation

 

[Rhea]

A person...

who thought they deserved praise...without any explanation

Wow, you deleted a lot of stuff to post that.
Here’s what I said

Have you ever met anyone

who thought they deserved praise, who basked in, even asked for, worship and who expected you to believe in them without any explanation, and who would hurt you if you didn’t do these things,

Who you thought was a good person?

So look carefully:
Whether they actually deserved praise is not relevant, this person thinks they deserve it, AND basks in worship AND expects belief without explanation.

All of my commas are in the right spots. But since you need special clarity: even when someone does something pretty stellar, we humans don’t think much of self-aggrandizing braggarts. You take your Nobel Prize and you say, “thank you, I am humbled,” because no one likes people who look like they think they deserve praise.

 

[Lion IRC]

Self-aggrandisement? He's all powerful.
Show me in the bible where anything we could say would give God something to boast about.

You know there's something else we humans don't think much of.
Ingratitude.

That's why we show our gratitude to people by giving them Nobel prizes in return for what they have done for us.

 

[J842P]

Poli has a very intellectualized cherry picked version of Christianity. While I have no issues with this variety of Christian, I do think that Poli has been a little intellectually dishonest in some of his replies here. At least that's how it appears to me. Certainly Poli must be aware that most Christians do worship Christ and most Christians use the Bible to support the obligation to worship Christ. And, since the majority of Christians believe in the concept of a trinity, God, the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, why does it matter if Jesus talks about worshiping God the Father, when Jesus is one of the versions of this god. Three gods in one is the basis for the mythology of Christianity. You can make up your own version, but that is the mainstream version that most Christians believe.

The following is a Presbyterian explanation of why Christians must worship Jesus.

http://www.westminsterconfession.org/worship/the.php

It could be assumed that the four Gospels would not provide much teaching relevant to the worship that is permanent in the church of God. The four Gospels are concerned to a large extent with what antedated the death, resurrection, and ascension of Christ and their story does not extend to the event of Pentecost. It was by these pivotal events that the typical and ceremonial institution was abrogated as to its observance and it might be thought that the worship reflected on in the four Gospels would be the worship of the ceremonial economy as distinct from the worship of the New Testament. There are two observations respecting this assumption. First, it should be borne in mind that there is much in the worship of the Old Testament that bears upon the worship that abides. Many considerations establish a basic identity in the worship of both Testaments. Examples will appear in the course of this study. Second, the assumption is soon shown to be erroneous when the four Gospels are examined. There is a wealth of material directly pertinent to what is basic and essential in the worship of God and therefore indispensable in the worship the New Testament prescribes. This material may be set forth under several appropriate divisions.

I. The Worship of God
(Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8, 24:53; John 4:23-24, 9:31)

A. According to Scripture the primary principle of worship is that God alone is to be worshipped. It was our Lord himself who gave unambiguous witness to this principle and exemplified it in the ordeal of his temptation: "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Matt. 4:10; Luke 4:8).

The author of that piece goes on to explain why Christians are meant to worship Christ. Again, to me, as a person who was raised to believe in that Jesus and God are one and the same, I can see how easily most versions of Christianity would proclaim that worshiping Jesus is an essential part of their beliefs. Now, Poli may not feel this is necessary, but if one is to be totally honest, than one sees that most translations of the Christian holy book mandate that all manifestations of god are to be worshiped. Just because the Jesus version of god, doesn't literally ask to be worshiped, the assumption is there that he, like his Father, should be worshiped. Of course, imnsho, the entire thing is a pile of BS, but what else would you expect from a former Christian turned atheist?

But the claim in the OP is that God demanded worship, without any explanation as to why. It is meant as an assessment of God's personality - would you be friends with someone who did this? Etc. Your own link contradicts this, as all throughout many reasons are given as to why such worship is deserved, and what humanity receives in return from this reciprocal relationship that worship creates.

And I am, by the way, starting to get pissed at all the personal attacks. I don't trash talk you, don't do it to me.

Ah. See, when you hear an atheist say "God says X", you can translate it as "religious people say X". Because generally, they hear X from a religious person, who says "God says X".

 

[Politesse]

But the claim in the OP is that God demanded worship, without any explanation as to why. It is meant as an assessment of God's personality - would you be friends with someone who did this? Etc. Your own link contradicts this, as all throughout many reasons are given as to why such worship is deserved, and what humanity receives in return from this reciprocal relationship that worship creates.

And I am, by the way, starting to get pissed at all the personal attacks. I don't trash talk you, don't do it to me.

Ah. See, when you hear an atheist say "God says X", you can translate it as "religious people say X". Because generally, they hear X from a religious person, who says "God says X".

But religious people don't consider the exchange to be without explanation or justification. No, neither conservatives nor the heterodox. Do not conservatives speak of Jesus as a "personal friend", expressly because they believe the relationship of faith to be a reciprocal one?

 

[J842P]

But the claim in the OP is that God demanded worship, without any explanation as to why. It is meant as an assessment of God's personality - would you be friends with someone who did this? Etc. Your own link contradicts this, as all throughout many reasons are given as to why such worship is deserved, and what humanity receives in return from this reciprocal relationship that worship creates.

And I am, by the way, starting to get pissed at all the personal attacks. I don't trash talk you, don't do it to me.

Ah. See, when you hear an atheist say "God says X", you can translate it as "religious people say X". Because generally, they hear X from a religious person, who says "God says X".

But religious people don't consider the exchange to be without explanation or justification. No, neither conservatives nor the heterodox. Do not conservatives speak of Jesus as a "personal friend", expressly because they believe the relationship of faith to be a reciprocal one?

Reading Rheas original post, I interpreted that as *believe in God without a good reason*, i.e., to believe in God on faith. I did not interpret that OP as "expect to worship God for no reason". Generally, Christians will give you a reason to worship God like "God is good", or "God will punish you if you don't", or something along those lines.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Self-aggrandisement? He's all powerful.
Show me in the bible where anything we could say would give God something to boast about.

You know there's something else we humans don't think much of.
Ingratitude.

That's why we show our gratitude to people by giving them Nobel prizes in return for what they have done for us.

Isn’t the book of Leviticus just a long list of arbitrary demands so that God won’t smite the Hebrews?

 

[Politesse]

But religious people don't consider the exchange to be without explanation or justification. No, neither conservatives nor the heterodox. Do not conservatives speak of Jesus as a "personal friend", expressly because they believe the relationship of faith to be a reciprocal one?

Reading Rheas original post, I interpreted that as *believe in God without a good reason*, i.e., to believe in God on faith. I did not interpret that OP as "expect to worship God for no reason". Generally, Christians will give you a reason to worship God like "God is good", or "God will punish you if you don't", or something along those lines.

Well, we only have what they actually wrote to work with here.

But my point here is that the nature of worship, from the perspective of most Christians, is being misunderstood. It is not a mindless duty, uncompensated, unexplained, and circumscribed by punishments. Rather, it is understood as the natural fruit of a reciprocal relationship of trust and love. One worships God for the same reasons one honors one's parents, stands for an anthem, or stays on the trail in a natural reserve. It is thanks for what has already been given, not a purposeless "rule" set in place to appease a vain and senseless deity. I understand why people buck authority, and reject all rules simply because they are rules. It is the spirit of our age, and accords with the personality of many who were raised in it. But, obviously, those of that mindset don't do a whole lot of worshiping. And the God of the Bible frankly would not want such involuntary and dishonest service in any case:

“What to me is the multitude of your sacrifices?
says the Lord;
I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams
and the fat of well-fed beasts;
I do not delight in the blood of bulls,
or of lambs, or of goats.
“When you come to appear before me,
who has required of you
this trampling of my courts?
Bring no more vain offerings;
incense is an abomination to me.
New moon and Sabbath and the calling of convocations—
I cannot endure iniquity and solemn assembly.
Your new moons and your appointed feasts
my soul hates;
they have become a burden to me;
I am weary of bearing them.
When you spread out your hands,
I will hide my eyes from you;
even though you make many prayers,
I will not listen;
your hands are full of blood.
Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;
remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;
cease to do evil,
learn to do good;
seek justice,
correct oppression;
bring justice to the fatherless,
plead the widow's cause.​

.

 

[southernhybrid]

Please explain to us how one can have a reciprocal relationship with an invisible entity, for which there is no actual evidence. How does one have a reciprocal relationship with an entity when that entity's existence is taken on faith and faith alone? How on earth can a relationship happen with an entity that can't be seen or heard by anyone but the person who claims that the relationship is reciprocal? It sounds like a very one sided relationship. Can you clarify that claim in a way that sounds believable?

 

[Rhea]

Do you think “honoring your parents” is the same as the worship that Christians do?

My impression - watching both - is that they are several orders of magnitude different, not at all the same. One doesn’t “honor one’s parents” by kneeling and singing at them and building huge fancy buildings and making paintings with everyone bowing.

Moreover your quote here is interesting in two ways:
1 - it contradicts earlier quotations includiing all the instructions on how to do what this one now says not to do and
2 - most christians don’t obey it.

So if you meant to say, no the worship isn’t creepy at all because look there is contradictory instructions that most of the people don’t follow.... it’s just not very convincing vs WHAT THEY DO.

Politesse - I’m talking about WHAT THEY DO. What we see. Modern day. Christians. All around us. Do.
It’s creepy and weird. And it’s not something that they would be comfortable seeing in any other being.
And I get how you want to say, “no it’s not, because I don’t feel creepy and weird when I do it, therefore it’s not creepy and weird.

But worship, hundreds intoning, “praise the lord,” or walking through the streets on Friday carrying crosses with procession of little chldren following, christian “musicians” writing terrible repetitive music (granted others like Kansas and Handel can make nice music), people chanting, it’s just all weird and creepy and if they saw me doing that to my parents they would think I am weird and creepy.

 

[Politesse]

Please explain to us how one can have a reciprocal relationship with an invisible entity, for which there is no actual evidence. How does one have a reciprocal relationship with an entity when that entity's existence is taken on faith and faith alone? How on earth can a relationship happen with an entity that can't be seen or heard by anyone but the person who claims that the relationship is reciprocal? It sounds like a very one sided relationship. Can you clarify that claim in a way that sounds believable?

To the believer, of course, God is not wholly beyond the senses, nor without evidence. You just aren't convinced of the same conclusions by the same evidence.