Price Waterhouse analyst murdered in his home by police

[Jarhyn]

1) Blacks are shot slight (but not statistically significantly) below whites when looking at arrests (police encounters would be a better yardstick but we don't have the data.)

and the clincher:

2) The difference in shooting rates is explained entirely by location. Cities with lots of blacks tend to have high police shooting rates--but of both whites and blacks.

Citations?

Also ignores the reality that, well, police can easily manipulate those numbers and have a strong motivation to do so.

I would like to see police interactions as a function of race.

If as many blacks as whites get shot per arrest, but black people get arrested at a higher rate, more blacks are still getting shot.

Also, a lot of police harassment of black people is spurious. Neither me, nor my husband, nor any of our friends been stopped and harassed by a cop. I don't have a single black friend who hasn't been, often for just going out for a walk in the neighborhood they live in.

 

[ruby sparks]

1) Blacks are shot slight (but not statistically significantly) below whites when looking at arrests (police encounters would be a better yardstick but we don't have the data.)

and the clincher:

2) The difference in shooting rates is explained entirely by location. Cities with lots of blacks tend to have high police shooting rates--but of both whites and blacks.

Citations?

Also ignores the reality that, well, police can easily manipulate those numbers and have a strong motivation to do so.

I would like to see police interactions as a function of race.

If as many blacks as whites get shot per arrest, but black people get arrested at a higher rate, more blacks are still getting shot.

Also, a lot of police harassment of black people is spurious. Neither me, nor my husband, nor any of our friends been stopped and harassed by a cop. I don't have a single black friend who hasn't been, often for just going out for a walk in the neighborhood they live in.

I did indeed find two studies (one from 2016, one from 2019) which suggested what Loren said.

The latter has been critisized for a 'baseline error' in that it (the shooting rate) assumes Police will encounter equal numbers of blacks and whites, which may or may not be the case. For sure there are fewer blacks in the population. That said, police may indeed encounter suspects in a ratio which increases the rate of encountering blacks, for a number of reasons (not necessarily racial).

Those two studies appear to be at odds with previous studies, and somewhat controversial. Nevertheless, it opens up the possibility that blacks may not, as commonly-thought, be shot more often than whites, by police, when the measuring criteria is solely 'shootings per arrest'.

The 2016 study also finds that there is a racial disparity (against blacks) in situations of arrest and force generally, though not in shootings, that is not explained by other factors, which were controlled for.

Here is the 2016 study:

https://law.yale.edu/sites/default/files/area/workshop/leo/leo16_fryer.pdf

And here is the 2019 study:

https://www.pnas.org/content/116/32/15877#ref-21

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) Blacks are shot slight (but not statistically significantly) below whites when looking at arrests (police encounters would be a better yardstick but we don't have the data.)

and the clincher:

2) The difference in shooting rates is explained entirely by location. Cities with lots of blacks tend to have high police shooting rates--but of both whites and blacks.

Citations?

The latter one was discussed on here when it came out.

The former has been brought up more than once but since it's simple math there's no real research to cite.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) Blacks are shot slight (but not statistically significantly) below whites when looking at arrests (police encounters would be a better yardstick but we don't have the data.)

and the clincher:

2) The difference in shooting rates is explained entirely by location. Cities with lots of blacks tend to have high police shooting rates--but of both whites and blacks.

Citations?

Also ignores the reality that, well, police can easily manipulate those numbers and have a strong motivation to do so.

I would like to see police interactions as a function of race.

If as many blacks as whites get shot per arrest, but black people get arrested at a higher rate, more blacks are still getting shot.

Which is exactly what is happening. However, you're making the standard error of the left of assuming a disparate result = discrimination. The important thing is that it varies by the crime rate in the city, not by the race of the person that got shot. High crime cities are disproportionately black and high crime cities have more police shootings. The key, however, is the crime rate, not the race of the person that got shot.

Unless you're going to argue that blacks are prone to criminality there's nothing racial here. It is, as usual, socioeconomic.

Also, a lot of police harassment of black people is spurious. Neither me, nor my husband, nor any of our friends been stopped and harassed by a cop. I don't have a single black friend who hasn't been, often for just going out for a walk in the neighborhood they live in.

How much of this is self-inflicted, though? They take an attitude with the cop and things escalate.

Personally, I have been stopped by a cop once despite having done nothing wrong. It was back when I was learning to drive--where's a place with empty streets to practice on? An area of new home construction, but after hours when the workers are gone. Streets with no cars and no kids running out--a good place to practice. But it looks out of place, a cop seeing it first thinks "thief". We simply explained what was going on and didn't take an attitude, no problem.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Those two studies appear to be at odds with previous studies, and somewhat controversial. Nevertheless, it opens up the possibility that blacks may not, as commonly-thought, be shot more often than whites, by police, when the measuring criteria is solely 'shootings per arrest'.

The thing is the data that says racism either doesn't consider the disparity in arrests or is using some sort of proxy. Looking at the real world data doesn't show cops are more likely to pull the trigger on a black person. Real world data trumps theoretical lab data.

 

[Jarhyn]

Also ignores the reality that, well, police can easily manipulate those numbers and have a strong motivation to do so.

I would like to see police interactions as a function of race.

If as many blacks as whites get shot per arrest, but black people get arrested at a higher rate, more blacks are still getting shot.

Which is exactly what is happening. However, you're making the standard error of the left of assuming a disparate result = discrimination. The important thing is that it varies by the crime rate in the city, not by the race of the person that got shot. High crime cities are disproportionately black and high crime cities have more police shootings. The key, however, is the crime rate, not the race of the person that got shot.

Unless you're going to argue that blacks are prone to criminality there's nothing racial here. It is, as usual, socioeconomic.

Also, a lot of police harassment of black people is spurious. Neither me, nor my husband, nor any of our friends been stopped and harassed by a cop. I don't have a single black friend who hasn't been, often for just going out for a walk in the neighborhood they live in.

How much of this is self-inflicted, though? They take an attitude with the cop and things escalate.

Personally, I have been stopped by a cop once despite having done nothing wrong. It was back when I was learning to drive--where's a place with empty streets to practice on? An area of new home construction, but after hours when the workers are gone. Streets with no cars and no kids running out--a good place to practice. But it looks out of place, a cop seeing it first thinks "thief". We simply explained what was going on and didn't take an attitude, no problem.

Ah yes. "ItS SocIoEcOnMiC".

When the socioeconomic factors are artificially induced, uniformly, against black people.

And then racists, actual racists, like those very clear examples that we all know infect these forums (and society) like a malignant cyst, use as an excuse to profile those who "look like" those who are more commonly struck with "socioeconomic factors".

Those black friends I was talking about, the ones who uniformly get harassed by police? They work better jobs than my white friends. The same ones who have never gotten bothered by an officer in their lives.

Socioeconomic indeed.

It's fucking racism, and the fallout from racism. One thing that can make that better is balancing the socioeconomic opportunities available through friend and family connections to black people, who are isolated on an island of disconnectedness and lack of opportunities.

But we can't have that, right?

 

[ruby sparks]

Those two studies appear to be at odds with previous studies, and somewhat controversial. Nevertheless, it opens up the possibility that blacks may not, as commonly-thought, be shot more often than whites, by police, when the measuring criteria is solely 'shootings per arrest'.

The thing is the data that says racism either doesn't consider the disparity in arrests or is using some sort of proxy. Looking at the real world data doesn't show cops are more likely to pull the trigger on a black person. Real world data trumps theoretical lab data.

The main thrust of the first paper is that despite blacks not being shot more often per arrest than whites, there is a racial disparity against blacks regarding arrests and use of force generally. What does Loren say about that? Zip. Suddenly, that part of the paper, or other similar material presented on numerous occasions, is not worthy of mention, even though it and they also cite 'real world data'. If it were to be mentioned, no doubt the possibility of racial bias would be denied, in contrast to the issue of shootings per arrest, which is readily seized on as clear proof of no racism (even though the nuanced explanations behind the data are arguably not that simple in either case). How come?

Here's how it works. You see some on the 'left' as tending to more or less automatically overstate racism (to 'see it everywhere' as they say) so you more or less automatically understate it in response, to a similar degree. The point is that you are no better than those you object to. They consistently tend to see racism, you consistently tend to see no racism. You are just a different kind of skewed to them, that's all.

The truth is almost certainly in the middle, that there is both less racism than those you object to suggest, and more than you suggest.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

A lot of the posts here seem to think these things are uniform across the nation. But then police harassment can be very high in some locations, not in others. A good example of a police harassment hot spot was Garden City, a small community just outside of Miami where police harassment of it's black citizens finally resulted in the firing of the police chief and many police officers. Then we had situations such as New York where choke holds were supposedly banned but still used with impunity until finally that resulted in Erik Garner;s death. and then we have the phenomena of some police forces having very poor training resulting in bad behavior. Cities with zero tolerance, "broken window" policies have high rates of black harassment. This is not a situation with simple causes and simple answers.

 

[Derec]

The witness who watched her through his peep-hole after the shooting was shot and killed in the parking last night, apparently in an ambush. No suspects announced yet.

They have arrested at least one of the suspects. Also, it seems Joshua Brown, who was also shot and wounded last November, was a drug dealer.
Joshua Brown, the slain Amber Guyger trial witness, was killed in a drug deal gone wrong, police say

Brown was killed after an argument with one of three men from Louisiana who had met him in Dallas for a drug purchase, Moore told reporters.
A conversation between Brown and Thaddeus Green, 22, escalated into a physical altercation in which Brown allegedly shot and wounded Jacquerious Mitchell, 20, according to Moore.
Green then shot Brown twice, Moore said. Green took a backpack from Brown as well as the gun used to wound Mitchell.
After receiving tips, police obtained a search warrant and recovered 12 pounds of marijuana, 143 grams of THC cartridges, and $4,000 in cash from Brown's apartment.

No wonder Brown was reluctant to testify. I wonder though whether this will lead to an appeal in the Guyger case.

Edited to add: Black Twitter is still clinging to the conspiracy theories though.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I was skeptical of his job, airbnb manager. Also, I am skeptical of the police in the story. Who did what is moot. All of Brown's testimony was backed up by other evidence. So, this is a red herring.

 

[Derec]

I was skeptical of his job, airbnb manager.

I was skeptical of his major, "interdisciplinary studies", but him having been on the football team cleared that up.

Also, I am skeptical of the police in the story. Who did what is moot. All of Brown's testimony was backed up by other evidence. So, this is a red herring.

The part about not hearing Guyger give any orders to Jean wasn't corroborated by any other evidence as far as I know. So it might have made a difference, at least between a manslaughter and a murder conviction.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I was skeptical of his job, airbnb manager.

I was skeptical of his major, "interdisciplinary studies", but him having been on the football team cleared that up.

Also, I am skeptical of the police in the story. Who did what is moot. All of Brown's testimony was backed up by other evidence. So, this is a red herring.

The part about not hearing Guyger give any orders to Jean wasn't corroborated by any other evidence as far as I know. So it might have made a difference, at least between a manslaughter and a murder conviction.

If that's true, it provides motive for the police killing him and planting "evidence."

 

[ZiprHead]

There's another witness.

Woman who filmed Dallas police officer Amber Guyger shoot Botham Jean fired

She took video.

 

[Derec]

If that's true, it provides motive for the police killing him and planting "evidence."

So you are suggesting, what, that the police are framing Green and the two Mitchells or that they hired them to do the assassination and keep their mouths shut as they go to prison?

Ockham's razor suggests Brown was a drug dealer who got popped by the Louisianans, either as a drug deal gone bad or a robbery gone bad. Drug dealing is a dangerous profession.

 

[southernhybrid]

Plus, the man who was shot by Brown is still alive but in critical condition. He admitted that this was a drug deal that went bad. There's no reason to believe conspiracy theories such as the police shot Brown, when there is no evidence that's what happened. Brown had a previous arrest related to drugs. It's a sad development, but the evidence supports the claim that the murder was due to a drug deal that went bad.

The police found marijuana, and THC cartridges in Brown's apartment after obtaining a search warrant. It's another tragedy. I assume the hospitalized man gave the names of the other two men to the police. He has been charged with capital murder. The other men will also be charged with capital murder once they are found.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Ah yes. "ItS SocIoEcOnMiC".

When the socioeconomic factors are artificially induced, uniformly, against black people.

What do you mean by "induced"? Adding a wrong variable is harmless because it will come out scoring lower. Thus you add any variable you have the data for. The reality is that when you add socioeconomic status it turns out to be more predictive than race. Race is a proxy for socioeconomic status, not the other way around.

Perhaps there is more harassment of blacks, we don't have the data to figure this out one way or another. We do see that the claimed data on shootings is not racism.

 

[PyramidHead]

Plus, the man who was shot by Brown is still alive but in critical condition. He admitted that this was a drug deal that went bad. There's no reason to believe conspiracy theories such as the police shot Brown, when there is no evidence that's what happened. Brown had a previous arrest related to drugs. It's a sad development, but the evidence supports the claim that the murder was due to a drug deal that went bad.

The police found marijuana, and THC cartridges in Brown's apartment after obtaining a search warrant. It's another tragedy. I assume the hospitalized man gave the names of the other two men to the police. He has been charged with capital murder. The other men will also be charged with capital murder once they are found.

When a cop is on trial for murdering my brother and I'm testifying for the prosecution, I sure do love to stash thousands of dollars of illegal drugs in my home, nothing suspicious about that, nor the famously On The Level Dallas Police Dept getting a confession out of someone facing life in prison if he doesn't cooperate

 

[Worldtraveller]

Plus, the man who was shot by Brown is still alive but in critical condition. He admitted that this was a drug deal that went bad. There's no reason to believe conspiracy theories such as the police shot Brown, when there is no evidence that's what happened. Brown had a previous arrest related to drugs. It's a sad development, but the evidence supports the claim that the murder was due to a drug deal that went bad.

The police found marijuana, and THC cartridges in Brown's apartment after obtaining a search warrant. It's another tragedy. I assume the hospitalized man gave the names of the other two men to the police. He has been charged with capital murder. The other men will also be charged with capital murder once they are found.

No reason to doubt the cops? There's always reason to doubt the cops. For one thing, they're cops.

https://www.theroot.com/nobody-is-buying-dallas-pd-s-bullshit-story-about-joshu-1838917708

 

[Jarhyn]

Plus, the man who was shot by Brown is still alive but in critical condition. He admitted that this was a drug deal that went bad. There's no reason to believe conspiracy theories such as the police shot Brown, when there is no evidence that's what happened. Brown had a previous arrest related to drugs. It's a sad development, but the evidence supports the claim that the murder was due to a drug deal that went bad.

The police found marijuana, and THC cartridges in Brown's apartment after obtaining a search warrant. It's another tragedy. I assume the hospitalized man gave the names of the other two men to the police. He has been charged with capital murder. The other men will also be charged with capital murder once they are found.

When a cop is on trial for murdering my brother and I'm testifying for the prosecution, I sure do love to stash thousands of dollars of illegal drugs in my home, nothing suspicious about that, nor the famously On The Level Dallas Police Dept getting a confession out of someone facing life in prison if he doesn't cooperate

What business do the cops have suddenly searching the house of an assault victim for anyway, especially when they can't be present? Conflict of interest, much?

 

[Derec]

What business do the cops have suddenly searching the house of an assault victim for anyway, especially when they can't be present? Conflict of interest, much?

Who is the "assault victim"?