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Price Waterhouse analyst murdered in his home by police

I will offer a simple observation about how these cases with shootings in America, particularly involving police, play out.

This is a sad, simple story. A man in his own abode, through no fault of his own, just living his life and doing nothing wrong, was shot and killed. That should never happen. It isn't complicated.

The discussion of these issues, even here on a freethought blog where logic and reason vary significantly from other settings, principally shifts to trying to explain, solely from the perspective of the shooter, why this may or may not have been an excusable event. Did the shooter have some tenable reason to feel a threat, regardless of the perspective of the victim? That is the metric American society has allowed to be applied.

It should be simple. You can't shoot people who have done nothing wrong. You are an obvious societal risk who takes a life when not needed. We as society should demand that you account for the life you took.

But that's not how it works.

At a bare minimum, this is manslaughter. The shooter negligently attempted to enter the wrong apartment. Her genuine belief that she was not wrong as to whose apartment it was may show she did not act with intent, but doesn't excuse the negligence which created the event. At best, it was a negligent taking of life due to the shooter's failure to reasonably determine the apartment was not her own.

Yet the discussion will all turn on whether her killing should be excused. "She didn't know." "It was a mistake." "He scared her." Goodness forbid anyone actually care that a guy minding his own business at home was needlessly killed.

I agree with you, should at least be a manslaughter charge.

I do also agree with Dismal that race has nothing to do with anything here. Because its actually not race....
Unintended bias can have an input. Had the guy been white, it might occur to her she is in the wrong place, instead of defaulting to the guy being an intruder.
...but it was/is her sex and also the fact she was a police officer that may end up getting her out of trouble. In America, women and police officers are always treated better than anyone else.
10 years in prison?
 
Also worth noting that Guyger had already openly indicated in court that she was (a) full of remorse, and (b) receptive to receiving forgiveness, including from god.

AMBER GUYGER: "I felt like a piece of crap. And I asked God for forgiveness. And I hate myself every single day. I wish he was the one with the gun and he killed me. I never wanted to take an innocent person's life."

Is it even proselytizing in that case?
Words.... it's hard to believe them based on what she's actually done.

Words are easy.
 
Also worth noting that Guyger had already openly indicated in court that she was (a) full of remorse, and (b) receptive to receiving forgiveness, including from god.

AMBER GUYGER: "I felt like a piece of crap. And I asked God for forgiveness. And I hate myself every single day. I wish he was the one with the gun and he killed me. I never wanted to take an innocent person's life."

Is it even proselytizing in that case?
Words.... it's hard to believe them based on what she's actually done.

Words are easy.

Pigs lie. Text messages you don't think other people will read in court don't.
 
Does anyone else find this troubling or at least wonder if it has psychological ramifications:
I wish he was the one with the gun and he killed me.

She seems NOT to have learned part of the lesson which is that 'shoot first, ask questions later' has inherent flaws. And she's putting that scenario onto him. While she seems to be sorry and I am sympathetic, I am just having a hard time with the logic.

Also this:
AMBER GUYGER: "I .... And I ... And I ... I wish ... I never ..."

How about this instead?

AMBER GUYGER: "Botham was a great person who didn't deserve this. I did not value his life enough to consider other options than killing this great young man with promise. If the situation were reversed, Botham would not have shot me. He neither owned a gun nor had an interest in shooting people. I am very sorry for ending his life. I feel like a piece of crap and need to change my way of thinking."

....which brings me to her jail time. I don't think prison will rehabilitate her thinking, but probably make it worse. The same goes for many others who end up there.
 
Also worth noting that Guyger had already openly indicated in court that she was (a) full of remorse, and (b) receptive to receiving forgiveness, including from god.

AMBER GUYGER: "I felt like a piece of crap. And I asked God for forgiveness. And I hate myself every single day. I wish he was the one with the gun and he killed me. I never wanted to take an innocent person's life."

Is it even proselytizing in that case?

Sure, it is. Just because you're a believer (if we can even assume that), it doesn't mean you want to be preached to. And it's not just about Guyger, it's about the message to the public.
 
Irrelevant to whether shooting them was justified. If a reasonable trained person would have believed they were a threat, that is sufficient to act like they are a threat.
Isn't that circular? In general, this is the conservative argument on Police shootings... 'if they shot the person, the person was a threat'.The default is the shooting is justified because there was a shooting.

No, I said if a reasonable trained person would think it's a threat. That's a standard outside whether or not anyone was actually shot.
 
Irrelevant to whether shooting them was justified. If a reasonable trained person would have believed they were a threat, that is sufficient to act like they are a threat.
Isn't that circular? In general, this is the conservative argument on Police shootings... 'if they shot the person, the person was a threat'.The default is the shooting is justified because there was a shooting.

No, I said if a reasonable trained person would think it's a threat. That's a standard outside whether or not anyone was actually shot.

Does this abstract reasonable person take race into account?
 
No, I said if a reasonable trained person would think it's a threat. That's a standard outside whether or not anyone was actually shot.

Does this abstract reasonable person take race into account?

You can answer your own question: do you think it is reasonable to take race into account? i.e., would a reasonable person take race into account?
 
No, I said if a reasonable trained person would think it's a threat. That's a standard outside whether or not anyone was actually shot.

Does this abstract reasonable person take race into account?

You can answer your own question: do you think it is reasonable to take race into account? i.e., would a reasonable person take race into account?

An appeal to a reasonable person standard is still an abstraction that a flawed person conceptualizes. So, I ask the question of the person doing the invoking of this abstraction who happens not to be me.
 
No, I said if a reasonable trained person would think it's a threat. That's a standard outside whether or not anyone was actually shot.

Does this abstract reasonable person take race into account?

You can answer your own question: do you think it is reasonable to take race into account? i.e., would a reasonable person take race into account?

Would you consider yourself a reasonable person? Would you take it into account? In general, I wouldn't take race or sex into account. I would probably take age into account, unless someone had a gun.

In terms of someone either having a gun or a replica indistinguishable from a gun, I think it is reasonable for a cop to react like they could and are willing to kill you.

I also think cops know more about hostile situations than Hollywood screen writers, who believe cops are sharpshooters who can shoot the gun out of somebody's hand.
 
Would you consider yourself a reasonable person? Would you take it into account? In general, I wouldn't take race or sex into account. I would probably take age into account, unless someone had a gun.

A hypothetical reasonable person might not be influenced by race (although even that is debatable).

But there is evidence that people in general, especially white people, and including police, see threat more readily if the suspect is dark-skinned. This has been borne out in many studies. I myself would not like to claim that I have no implicit bias of that sort. Like many people my age, I have been 'socialised' almost my whole life, to think this way. An extremely obvious example, which is at the same time very subtle, is the historical prevalence of goodies in films dressed in white (or light colours) and baddies in black (or dark colours). This might be called the 'Luke Skywalker/Darth Vader Effect'.

In terms of someone either having a gun or a replica indistinguishable from a gun, I think it is reasonable for a cop to react like they could and are willing to kill you.

Broadly, yes.

I think the law here would be more stringent. For example, that the victim would have had to actually threaten the officer with the toy gun. But here is not the USA. The threat to police from guns is much lower. Even here, police warn that playing with replica guns can put the person in grave danger, as this video dramatically illustrates:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ehzq9OdE2w0[/YOUTUBE]
 
The witness who watched her through his peep-hole after the shooting was shot and killed in the parking last night, apparently in an ambush. No suspects announced yet.

I would be surprised if this has anything to do with the case. Of course that is not stopping conspiracy theories that he was murdered by Dallas police. But there were conspiracy theories around that rapper Nipsey Hustle too, and he turned out to have been murdered by a rival from his hood.
But if he was targeted does that mean that Bunny is in danger?
source.gif
 
You can answer your own question: do you think it is reasonable to take race into account? i.e., would a reasonable person take race into account?

An appeal to a reasonable person standard is still an abstraction that a flawed person conceptualizes. So, I ask the question of the person doing the invoking of this abstraction who happens not to be me.

The law can't enumerate all situations so it's based on what a reasonable person would do. Trying to confuse this by bringing race into the picture is simply trying to avoid reality.
 
Would you consider yourself a reasonable person? Would you take it into account? In general, I wouldn't take race or sex into account. I would probably take age into account, unless someone had a gun.

A hypothetical reasonable person might not be influenced by race (although even that is debatable).

But there is evidence that people in general, especially white people, and including police, see threat more readily if the suspect is dark-skinned. This has been borne out in many studies.

Except for the most important--when do the cops pull the trigger? All the leftist bullshit racism "research" can't overcome this fundamental reality. We have two actual data points:

1) Blacks are shot slight (but not statistically significantly) below whites when looking at arrests (police encounters would be a better yardstick but we don't have the data.)

and the clincher:

2) The difference in shooting rates is explained entirely by location. Cities with lots of blacks tend to have high police shooting rates--but of both whites and blacks.
 
You can answer your own question: do you think it is reasonable to take race into account? i.e., would a reasonable person take race into account?

An appeal to a reasonable person standard is still an abstraction that a flawed person conceptualizes. So, I ask the question of the person doing the invoking of this abstraction who happens not to be me.

The law can't enumerate all situations so it's based on what a reasonable person would do. Trying to confuse this by bringing race into the picture is simply trying to avoid reality.

Not bringing up the race of the victim is avoiding reality and putting your head in the sand.
 
1) Blacks are shot slight (but not statistically significantly) below whites when looking at arrests (police encounters would be a better yardstick but we don't have the data.)

and the clincher:

2) The difference in shooting rates is explained entirely by location. Cities with lots of blacks tend to have high police shooting rates--but of both whites and blacks.

Citations?
 
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