Pro-Lifer says, "Let them die if it costs me money"

[Jimmy Higgins]

Ot's so very weord that there's such a huge overlap, people insisting they're free to ignore state mandates who, a short time ago, were insisting the entire solution to Black Lives Matter was, 'If the cops tell you to do something, you do it!"

Somebody else noticed

View attachment 27174

Right wingers love harsh enforcement of laws they aren’t subject to. Give them a speeding ticket... and wait for the fireworks to fly.

 

[TSwizzle]

But the profit over lives people need willing accomplices or they won't get anything done.

"food on the table people" is more accurate. "

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

But the profit over lives people need willing accomplices or they won't get anything done.

"food on the table people" is more accurate. "

And easily solved by our government without anyone putting anyone else in danger or unduly burdening anyone financially.

We could easily afford to give every family that needs it $2,000 per month (or more) for the next three to four months (or more) and only be spending about $500-700 Billion, ALL of which would go right back into the economy—thus benefitting corporations and farmers and restaurant owners and the stock market would rise again and stabilize, etc—and none of those people would go hungry (in spite of the fact that way too many of them could stand to miss dozens of meals).

They are idiot pawns being manipulated by a con man (and his sychophants) into thinking they are defending a way of life that never existed for any of them to begin with.

And you’re part of it. Congrats. You’ll die knowing you were on the wrong side of history.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I was playing the role of the person who wants to “open up” who say it is not a big deal that 1% of the population dies - pointing out then why is it a big deal if 1% of the population goes bankrupt, either?

Oh, come on now! The dead person won't suffer since they are now in God's hands. The bankrupt one will!

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Do you know how many Americans suffered for years during the Great Depression? Keeping the economy closed for too long means our descendants could suffer for years as well. If we open it soon, the deaths will be big now, but less than if we closed the economy indefinitely and millions of families all of a sudden experience extreme poverty for possibly a decade.

If you value human life, you do open it up.

But as to your "40,000 deaths" argument, if the choice is "40,000 deaths" and "millions of deaths over a depression induced decade," then any sane sensible rational person would choose the 40,000 deaths. Obviously, we wish it to be 0 deaths. But, if those are the only 2 options you can choose, then anyone is lying if they say they wouldn't choose the 40,000.

You're the one arguing for the path of millions of deaths. Get those souls to god as fast as possible!

 

[Bronzeage]

It's instructive here to focus on one part of the argument TSwizzle made:




At the core of this is the idea that money is of greater importance than life. An odd position for any "pro-life" person to take, but not without historical precedent. In fact from the beginning of the Industrial Revolution up until the early 20th Century, this idea was pervasive. So your 12 year old kid lost an arm in a machine after working a 60 hour week for a few dollars a day? So what? The factory has to stay productive! Your grandfather died after a short life of inhaling toxic fumes in the mine? So what? We need coal!

As I wrote that last bit, I remembered my own grandfather, who worked in the coal mines in Wales as a teenager, and went on to become an RAF pilot in WWII. He'd happily share tales of his time in the war, but went silent if you dared ask about the mines. Let that sink in for a moment. The terror of the worst war in human history < working in a mine as a child.

Anyway, it does indeed appear to be cold-hearted to say "40,000 dead? No big deal! We need the economy open!", but that's what you're dealing with. People who put money over lives. Shut up and get back to work, because "captains of industry" need a new yacht, or a refresh of the kitchen in their Hampton's home. That stuff is important. Lives? Not so much.

There was a scene in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" that always bothered me. I'd have to go crack open the book for all the details, but it was near the end when the protagonists were breaking into some facility to put their plan into motion, and Dagny straight up murdered a hapless security guard in cold blood. The excuse boiled down to "he was standing in the way of unfettered capitalism."

Now, is TSwizzle a captain of industry? With a home in the Hampton's or a yacht? Probably not. But the profit over lives people need willing accomplices or they won't get anything done.

Do you know how many Americans suffered for years during the Great Depression? Keeping the economy closed for too long means our descendants could suffer for years as well. If we open it soon, the deaths will be big now, but less than if we closed the economy indefinitely and millions of families all of a sudden experience extreme poverty for possibly a decade.

If you value human life, you do open it up.

But as to your "40,000 deaths" argument, if the choice is "40,000 deaths" and "millions of deaths over a depression induced decade," then any sane sensible rational person would choose the 40,000 deaths. Obviously, we wish it to be 0 deaths. But, if those are the only 2 options you can choose, then anyone is lying if they say they wouldn't choose the 40,000.

What is this mechanism of death connected with an depression? Is there some sort of pathogen associated with and economic downturn?

This deadly depression scenario sales pitch only works if we maintain our current "everybody is entitled to the healthcare they can afford" model of treating disease and injury. This maybe the source of the conservative's fear of containing Covid19. They fear this pandemic is going to spur great changes in our healthcare system and believe that this can be prevented by allowing those who would immediately benefit from changes, to die before it happens.

I've been poor, but I was healthy. There was nothing about my United States of America grade poverty that threatened my health. This idea that an economic depression will kill people only holds water if we retain the idea that it's okay to let poor people die of preventable causes, if they can't foot the bill for treatment.

 

[Toni]

No, problem not solved. Problem not recognized (by you).



Isn't this a problem, though? There are a lot of hungry people who really could use that milk. Why is it better to dump milk or meat or produce or whatever rather than to ensure that it goes to people who cannot afford to buy milk, fresh produce, meat for themselves? Why is it better to dump/waste food than to feed people?

You can't think of the problem? If food is consumed past the expiration date and someone gets sick, they could sue the company. That's one factor. The other factor is that people wouldn't go shopping. They would just say, "I'm waiting til tonight when you give it away for free."

2 problems right there off the top of my head.

You're still not getting it:

Farmers are dumping milk because they cannot sell it. Same thing with fresh produce and even meats.

Stores are dumping milk because it is unsold after expiration date. Same thing with fresh produce and even meats.

There are literally millions of people, many of them children, who are too poor to buy nutritious food such as milk and produce.

There are the same number of people (minus those tens of thousands who have died from COVID 19) who need to eat but fewer of them have the cash to purchase nutritious food.

The problem isn't that the farmers are producing too much food.

The problem is that too many people lack the resources to purchase food, many of them for the first time because they have lost their jobs due to the virus.

Good nutrition helps people avoid getting ill and also helps stop the spread of this virus and other illnesses.
Good nutrition helps people stave off obesity, diabetes and heart disease all of which make one more prone to becoming seriously ill from this virus and other viruses and diseases and drives up the cost of health care and also drives down the productivity of the work force.

Opening up businesses too soon exposes too many people to the virus.

Keeping businesses closed down helps prevent the spread of the virus.

The rational person would conclude that the government should subsidize farmers and especially poor people and newly unemployed people and make it easier for them to purchase nutritious food such as milk and fresh produce before it spoils. This is particularly true during any kind of epidemic and especially a pandemic. Don't get me wrong: it's the right thing to do any time, period. We can afford to do it. It is the moral thing to do. It would help lower the costs of health care (and education as well nourished children learn better) and boost productivity as fewer workers need to call in sick because of their own illnesses or the illnesses of their children.

It's the right thing to do: Feed people who are hungry rather than waste food. It's what decent, rational people do.

 

[Ford]

But the profit over lives people need willing accomplices or they won't get anything done.

"food on the table people" is more accurate. "

Yes, I'm sure Jeff Bezos is having trouble putting food on the table.

 

[Keith&Co.]

What is this mechanism of death connected with an depression?

That's a real good question. I had lots of relatives with quirky ideas or quaint practices, and they usually said it was because 'I lived thru The Depression.'
Or else an aunt or uncle or parent said, 'Grandma doesn't (trust banks or whatever) because she lived thru The Great Depression.'

No one ever explained away Great Grandma's eccentric behavior, or Grandma's, or Aunt Levonda's, because 'that's how she died during The Great Depression.'

 

[TSwizzle]

But the profit over lives people need willing accomplices or they won't get anything done.

"food on the table people" is more accurate. "

Yes, I'm sure Jeff Bezos is having trouble putting food on the table.

What asinine thing to say. But pretty much par for the course.

 

[Ford]

Yes, I'm sure Jeff Bezos is having trouble putting food on the table.

What asinine thing to say. But pretty much par for the course.

What could be more asinine than "sure, tens of thousands have died, and tens of thousands more will die soon, but we have to reopen the economy anyway because profits are more important than a few tens of thousands of lives!"?

What could be more asinine than "doctors and epidemiologists across the board have said that social distancing is necessary, staying home will save lives, and gathering in crowds is playing Russian Roulette, but we're going to get a bunch of people together and protest!"

What could be more asinine than the President bragging that his actions have probably saved "billions" in a country of 330 million?

I could go on, but the answer is that these are all asinine, but the worst is "send everyone back to work and fuck the risk."

 

[TSwizzle]

No doubt you could (and definitely will) go on and on and on attacking the straw men that you build yourself. Crack on fella.

 

[ZiprHead]

Yes, I'm sure Jeff Bezos is having trouble putting food on the table.

What asinine thing to say. But pretty much par for the course.

What could be more asinine than "sure, tens of thousands have died, and tens of thousands more will die soon, but we have to reopen the economy anyway because profits are more important than a few tens of thousands of lives!"?

What could be more asinine than "doctors and epidemiologists across the board have said that social distancing is necessary, staying home will save lives, and gathering in crowds is playing Russian Roulette, but we're going to get a bunch of people together and protest!"

What could be more asinine than the President bragging that his actions have probably saved "billions" in a country of 330 million?

I could go on, but the answer is that these are all asinine, but the worst is "send everyone back to work and fuck the risk."

No doubt you could (and definitely will) go on and on and on attacking the straw men that you build yourself. Crack on fella.

Here you go, T. Don't forget to have it witnessed.

 

[laughing dog]

Apparently the worldview of stick one's head up one's ass and saying "Not a problem" extends from climate change to the covid-19 pandemic. One can only hope in this case, Darwinian selection will improve the human race in the interim.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Apparently the worldview of stick one's head up one's ass and saying "Not a problem" extends from climate change to the covid-19 pandemic. One can only hope in this case, Darwinian selection will improve the human race in the interim.

Sadly that isn’t how this bug works. This assholes will get other people killed.

 

[TSwizzle]

And the straw men keep coming.

 

[Ford]

No doubt you could (and definitely will) go on and on and on attacking the straw men that you build yourself. Crack on fella.

Straw men? Gosh, it's like I'm making up arguments people never made!

Very, very few people "die of Covid-19". Even fewer young, healthy people.

40,0000 is "very few." And it's not like anyone is crying about small businesses having to shutter their doors!

... people are suffering extreme hardships because they have had their livelihoods taken away from them unnecessarily. It's enough already. It's time to ease up and start allowing some businesses to open. Keeping the "stay at home/shelter in place" order because of mass hysteria is unnecessary and unjust.

Thank goodness nobody is claiming the worst is over, and we only needed a lockdown to keep from overwhelming medical services (which weren't overwhelmed at all...just ask a nurse!)

..we have already taken the steps to prevent the overwhelming of the medical services. This is why we need to ease up on the lock down. It has done its job. With the exception of a few places. NY for example.

Yep the job is done. Why, only a thousand more people died while I was composing this post! Nothing to see here, folks! Move along...Now, let's keep some perspective on things! 30,000 deaths is peanuts!

I am very concerned. But not to the point that society should come to a standstill. This virus is going to have to run its course. We tolerate tens of thousands of deaths from flu every year with barely a murmur. This is just going to be part of life now.

Suck it up buttercup! 30,000 40,000 deaths is "concerning," but what about all the businesses? Entrepreneurs are suffering a terminal lack of profits!

So now we are pretty much on top of things enough to start easing up on the draconian shelter in place stuff. Try to keep the 90 year old obese grandmas as safe as you can but she's gotta go sometime. The outliers are tragedies but there are risks to life.

Yep, things are getting so much better! There's only 3/4 of a million cases in the US, and to paraphrase Trump, it'll be down to zero in no time. Sure, granny might die, but she was old and worthless anyway, and you can use your inheritance to open up that restaurant you'd always dreamed about. It's a win, win, win from here on out. Cue "Happy days are here again!"

Next time I'll try not to make up argument windmills and tilt against them, okay?

 

[TSwizzle]

Next time I'll try not to make up argument windmills and tilt against them, okay?

You couldn’t even if you tried.

 

[Half-Life]

No, problem not solved. Problem not recognized (by you).



Isn't this a problem, though? There are a lot of hungry people who really could use that milk. Why is it better to dump milk or meat or produce or whatever rather than to ensure that it goes to people who cannot afford to buy milk, fresh produce, meat for themselves? Why is it better to dump/waste food than to feed people?

You can't think of the problem? If food is consumed past the expiration date and someone gets sick, they could sue the company. That's one factor. The other factor is that people wouldn't go shopping. They would just say, "I'm waiting til tonight when you give it away for free."

2 problems right there off the top of my head.

You're still not getting it:

Farmers are dumping milk because they cannot sell it. Same thing with fresh produce and even meats.

Stores are dumping milk because it is unsold after expiration date. Same thing with fresh produce and even meats.

There are literally millions of people, many of them children, who are too poor to buy nutritious food such as milk and produce.

There are the same number of people (minus those tens of thousands who have died from COVID 19) who need to eat but fewer of them have the cash to purchase nutritious food.

The problem isn't that the farmers are producing too much food.

The problem is that too many people lack the resources to purchase food, many of them for the first time because they have lost their jobs due to the virus.

Good nutrition helps people avoid getting ill and also helps stop the spread of this virus and other illnesses.
Good nutrition helps people stave off obesity, diabetes and heart disease all of which make one more prone to becoming seriously ill from this virus and other viruses and diseases and drives up the cost of health care and also drives down the productivity of the work force.

Opening up businesses too soon exposes too many people to the virus.

Keeping businesses closed down helps prevent the spread of the virus.

The rational person would conclude that the government should subsidize farmers and especially poor people and newly unemployed people and make it easier for them to purchase nutritious food such as milk and fresh produce before it spoils. This is particularly true during any kind of epidemic and especially a pandemic. Don't get me wrong: it's the right thing to do any time, period. We can afford to do it. It is the moral thing to do. It would help lower the costs of health care (and education as well nourished children learn better) and boost productivity as fewer workers need to call in sick because of their own illnesses or the illnesses of their children.

It's the right thing to do: Feed people who are hungry rather than waste food. It's what decent, rational people do.

Yes, we know that your side's solution is always to "let the government take care of us like mommy and daddy!" No, WE are responsible for ourselves. Government is inept. When will you guys learn this?

Republicans despise big government. Democrats want the government to coddle us like babies. That is how my father always put it to me in simple terms when I was growing up.

Did you know that in the green new deal they want to give money to people who refuse to work? Yep, you can just say, "I don't want to work" and the government will give you free money.

Talk about leeches. What happens if everyone says they don't want to work? Oops!

 

[Ford]

Next time I'll try not to make up argument windmills and tilt against them, okay?

You couldn’t even if you tried.

Wow, such an in depth, thoughtful answer. Thank goodness you take the time to consider your arguments and don't just fall back on insulting people one sentence at a time.