Problems with the Problem of Evil

[SLD]

The Problem with the Problem of Evil

The problem of evil has been around for thousands of years and generated much discussion. There is a lot that I do like about it. Frankly theists don’t have many good arguments against it. That being said, I did not lose my faith because of it even though I was aware of it. I have a few issues with it.

The problem of evil can perhaps best be encapsulated as follows:

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

1. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
2. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
3. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
4. Evil exists.
5. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
6. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

My main issue with this line of argument is that evil doesn’t really exist except in the sense of a limited human life. What is evil? Typical examples include, childhood cancer, famine, war, and genocide. I suppose smaller evils include jealousy, anger issues, and impotence.

My issue with these is that they are only evil relative to a rather short human life span. To an eternal being a lifetime of human suffering is insignificant. The universe has been around 13.6 billion years, maybe much longer. Modern humans have only been around for a few hundred thousand years. So your 80 years sucked? God can make up for it in a variety of ways, but especially in an infinitely long paradise.

Or maybe there is reincarnation, and your next life is great. Maybe the Mormons are right and we get to be king of a planet!
Most definitions of evil are defined as basically things that result in death. Death sucks as life is all we can know. But religion promises eternal life. That makes death irrelevant, and therefore defines away evil.

Of course the argument doesn’t demonstrate that god does exist, nor do I believe in such an entity, at least how it is traditionally defined. I don’t believe because there are no good positive arguments for such a god.

But what if god is merely the creator of the laws of physics? His definition of evil is to attempt to disobey them. Indeed trying to cheat them usually does result in harm. That maybe a separate argument.

Your thoughts on the PoE?

 

[pood]

This reminds me so much of the Problem of Coal (PoC) with respect to Santa Claus.

Santa is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect. Yet he gives some kids coal. Why?

It’s because they’ve been naughty instead of nice. But look, if Santa is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect, why should there be any naughty kids in the world? OK, here’s where the analogy fails. We don’t commonly suppose that Santa made the world. Only God did that.

So Santa, being omniscient, knows which kids are naughty, and which are nice. And, being omnipotent, he can and does give each kid exactly what he, she, or they deserve — a new iPhone for little Mary, who has been nice because she helped a little old lady across the street, or a lump of coal for little Billy, who was naughty because he murdered the same little old lady that little Mary helped.

But still — here we run into a conundrum. Santa, being omnipotent, could give each naughty kid a pill, or a device, or something, that converts the naughty kid into a nice kid. That way, the following Christmas, Santa would have only nice kids in the world, and wouldn’t have to distribute any coal at all.

This would solve another problem, too, the problem of Peak Coal. The problem is that there is only so much coal in the world, and at some point there will still be some coal in the ground but it will be unprofitable to extract it. That time is called Peak Coal. If Santa presented each naughty kid with a pill or machine that made him nice, he wouldn’t have to dig up any more coal. Also let’s not forget that a lot of the coal that Santa gives to naughty kids will later be burned and contribute to climate change.

These knotty (naughty?) problems are not easily solved, hence why there is an entire academic field devoted to Santaology as well as websites like SARM, the Santa Apologetics and Research Ministry.

 

[Elixir]

That way, the following Christmas, Santa would have only nice kids in the world, and wouldn’t have to distribute any coal at all.

Get real. If he did that he’d go broke trying to give every kid something nice. Everyone would end up with something mediocre or worse. Like maybe a clothespin.

 

[ideologyhunter]

But still — here we run into a conundrum. Santa, being omnipotent, could give each naughty kid a pill, or a device, or something, that converts the naughty kid into a nice kid.

These knotty (naughty?) problems are not easily solved, hence why there is an entire academic field devoted to Santaology as well as websites like SARM, the Santa Apologetics and Research Ministry.

Well, shit, the good folks at Teva (makers of Adderall) or Novartis (makers of Ritalin) have those pills now. Consult your local pill m-- er-- pediatrician. Isn't SARM under fire from the MAGA crowd, who all support coal, and especially "clean coal"? Also, are we sure we want to convert all kids into toy receivers?? Don't we need a lot of Asian kids to keep making toys and electronics that fat jaded American kids will receive on Christmas Day and be tired of, by New Year's Eve? I thought that was the power plant of the modern economy. (BTW I'm not trying to fat-shame America's youth, but have you seen these massive young-uns on their way to a great diabetic future?)

 

[Lion IRC]

It's a useful theodicy - factoring in the cosmic time-scale of suffering versus the cosmic timescale of happiness.

It's effectively asking whether it's better to live with relatively small portion of suffering than to have never lived at all.

Darwinian natural selection (naturalism) seems to answer that question overwhelmingly in the affirmative. Every species that has ever existed seems to behave as though it wants to be here despite this so-called 'problem'.

 

[Elixir]

Every species that has ever existed seems to behave as though it wants to be here despite this so-called 'problem'.

Species don’t act, individual organisms do. Even HSS doesn’t have its shit together enough to act in the best interest of the species.
But you’re right: living things are living because they are descended from organisms for whom living and reproducing are their priorities 1&2. Evil is a human invention and has zero bearing upon those priorities.

 

[Politesse]

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

Hell of an assumption to start with.

 

[Elixir]

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

Hell of an assumption to start with.

Hey, if you’re gonna operate on assumptions, why not make them as grandiose as imaginable?

 

[bilby]

If any gods exist, then observing the world we inhabit indicates that they are weak, uncaring, and completely amoral. The world looks exactly as though any gods are completely disinterested in humanity, and are completely indistingushable from non-existent.

The biggest problem with the gods is that there's no clear definition of what the fuck a god even is.

Every sect and cult has different attributes that it claims are essential qualities of the gods, from the polytheistic aloof bickerers of the Roman and Greek traditions who toy with the lives of mortals for entertainment, via the trinitarian god of Roman catholicism, that requires belief in a series of overt contradictions as a demonstration of loyalty to a human Pope, through to the perfect multi-omni mono-god of the radicsl protestants, whose existence the PoE challenges.

Gods allegedly made everything (but not themselves), or perhaps they made only the living things (but again, not themselves), or maybe only the living, thinking, and loving things (but yet again, not themselves), or maybe they didn't make anything, and are just a personification of something (which may or may not be tangible).

Having maybe made everything (or something, or nothing), either alone or as a group, they (or he, or she) then manage(s) how it all (or just the Earth, or just humanity, or just our tribe, or just each god's speciality) continues to work, in ways that are impossible to detect or repeat, and impossible to distinguish from statistical noise.

Therefore it is imperative to feed, clothe and house a bunch of parasitic priests, vicars, imams, rabbis, and televangelists, so that when we die, everything will be excellent (or at least not horrific), because we will get to spend eternity being rewarded, or punished, or reincarnated in a form determined by how kind or cruel we were in our last life, or something, I don't know, shut up and put money in the collection plate or else.

The biggest problem with religion is that it is indistinguishable from a well crafted scam that allows small numbers of people to manipulate the masses into supporting the ongoing existence of religion. Whether the people perpetrating the scam are cruel cynics, or just a subset of victims of the scam who have found a niche in its perpetuation, is neither clear nor particularly important; Probably there is some of both in any given religion.

Religions are memetic viruses. They are contagious, and hijack the host's own psychological and emotional systems to ensure their further spread. It's unsurprising that they are endemic; They evolved to be that way.

 

[SLD]

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

Hell of an assumption to start with.

Hey, if you’re gonna operate on assumptions, why not make them as grandiose as imaginable?

Well, it’s how the problem has been framed. It is indeed a hell of an assumption. Morally perfect? From whose perspective? That’s my challenge to it.

 

[unapologetic]

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

The xian god is a trickster god. He does or permits a lot of evil shit.

 

[ideologyhunter]

If any gods exist, then observing the world we inhabit indicates that they are weak, uncaring, and completely amoral. The world looks exactly as though any gods are completely disinterested in humanity, and are completely indistingushable from non-existent.

That's just how I see it. The real "problem with the problem of evil" is that believers ignore it and side-step it so readily with their free will argument, which they think explains everything (except that the Bible has several examples of Biblegod contravening and cancelling free will.)
A bigger problem than evil in the world (if we're defining evil as the actions of malefactors) is disease and misery. If a compassionate creator made the scene we see here, then he (I guess he goes by he/him, whatever sense that makes) brought in cystic fibrosis, spina bifida, progeria, childhood cancer, and all the rest. God sure works in mysterious (and unloving and unmerciful) ways.

 

[bilby]

If any gods exist, then observing the world we inhabit indicates that they are weak, uncaring, and completely amoral. The world looks exactly as though any gods are completely disinterested in humanity, and are completely indistingushable from non-existent.

That's just how I see it. The real "problem with the problem of evil" is that believers ignore it and side-step it so readily with their free will argument, which they think explains everything (except that the Bible has several examples of Biblegod contravening and cancelling free will.)
A bigger problem than evil in the world (if we're defining evil as the actions of malefactors) is disease and misery. If a compassionate creator made the scene we see here, then he (I guess he goes by he/him, whatever sense that makes) brought in cystic fibrosis, spina bifida, progeria, childhood cancer, and all the rest. God sure works in mysterious (and unloving and unmerciful) ways.

Sure, but these are just contradictions. Religions thrive on contradictions, because the acceptance of the absurd is the ultimate display of human loyalty.

If (and only if) Winston Smith can accept and truly believe that 2+2=5 because The Party says so, then he is a good citizen.

If you accept that 3=1, then you are a good Christian. If you accept that God is tri-omni in a world that is full of suffering, cruelty, and awfulness, then you are a good Christian. If you accept that the obviously human Pope is infallible when speaking ex-cathedra, then you are a good Catholic. If you can believe absurdities, then you can be relied upon to commit atrocities when called upon to do so.

The object is power. Not the power to do something; Power is the end in itself. Religion is not unique in obtaining power in this way, it's just very, very good at it. Humans are deeply vulnerable to becoming the pawns of powers, whether that peonage is expressed as religion, patriotism, tribalism, or mere sports fandom. Most humans like to let someone else do their thinking, and they like to feel included as part of a bigger group. They don't even mind if that someone else is long dead. And that gives those who want power an easy way to satisfy that desire.

 

[unapologetic]

What is evil, is the definition of the Abrahamic god.
A genuine all-powerful immortal creator god would not give a damn about our worship. No more so than we know or care about what ants might worship. We just want them to stay out of our way.
The Abrahamic god is all too human to be considered 'good'.

 

[ideologyhunter]

All true. But remember, "God is love", and the Christian message is infused with the sentiment that their god is ultimately so loving that he craves our love and worship directed back at him. So it's worth pointing out the nonsense this is, when one looks at the natural world and the human world.

 

[bilby]

But remember, "God is love"

What, he can't even score a point playing tennis? So much for "omnipotent".

 

[SLD]

If any gods exist, then observing the world we inhabit indicates that they are weak, uncaring, and completely amoral. The world looks exactly as though any gods are completely disinterested in humanity, and are completely indistingushable from non-existent.

That's just how I see it. The real "problem with the problem of evil" is that believers ignore it and side-step it so readily with their free will argument, which they think explains everything (except that the Bible has several examples of Biblegod contravening and cancelling free will.)
A bigger problem than evil in the world (if we're defining evil as the actions of malefactors) is disease and misery. If a compassionate creator made the scene we see here, then he (I guess he goes by he/him, whatever sense that makes) brought in cystic fibrosis, spina bifida, progeria, childhood cancer, and all the rest. God sure works in mysterious (and unloving and unmerciful) ways.

When does God cancel free will in the Bible?

Disease of course is a more traditional form of evil in this vein of thought. But yes, god’s mysteries are indeed unloving and unmerciful. Reminds me of The Onion headline, God answers paralyzed boy’s prayers - says no.

 

[ideologyhunter]

When does God cancel free will in the Bible?

The gold star example is God hardening Pharaoh's heart so that he will not release the Israelites so that God can show his might (and extreme cruelty) in sending plague after plague on the Egyptians. Demented story. Paul discusses this -- approvingly -- in Romans 9 and makes a general teaching of it. See especially Rom. 9: 16-18. The predestination crowd had several other scriptures that they relied on, to push this doctrine.

 

[Spacetime Inhabitant]

The Problem with the Problem of Evil

The problem of evil has been around for thousands of years and generated much discussion. There is a lot that I do like about it. Frankly theists don’t have many good arguments against it. That being said, I did not lose my faith because of it even though I was aware of it. I have a few issues with it.

The problem of evil can perhaps best be encapsulated as follows:

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

1. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
2. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
3. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
4. Evil exists.
5. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
6. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

My main issue with this line of argument is that evil doesn’t really exist except in the sense of a limited human life. What is evil? Typical examples include, childhood cancer, famine, war, and genocide. I suppose smaller evils include jealousy, anger issues, and impotence.

My issue with these is that they are only evil relative to a rather short human life span. To an eternal being a lifetime of human suffering is insignificant. The universe has been around 13.6 billion years, maybe much longer. Modern humans have only been around for a few hundred thousand years. So your 80 years sucked? God can make up for it in a variety of ways, but especially in an infinitely long paradise.

Or maybe there is reincarnation, and your next life is great. Maybe the Mormons are right and we get to be king of a planet!
Most definitions of evil are defined as basically things that result in death. Death sucks as life is all we can know. But religion promises eternal life. That makes death irrelevant, and therefore defines away evil.

Of course the argument doesn’t demonstrate that god does exist, nor do I believe in such an entity, at least how it is traditionally defined. I don’t believe because there are no good positive arguments for such a god.

But what if god is merely the creator of the laws of physics? His definition of evil is to attempt to disobey them. Indeed trying to cheat them usually does result in harm. That maybe a separate argument.

Your thoughts on the PoE?

If God is omniscient then he would totally comprehend humans short life spans, and what it is like to any human, and that to the humans it is not insignificant.

 

[SLD]

The Problem with the Problem of Evil

The problem of evil has been around for thousands of years and generated much discussion. There is a lot that I do like about it. Frankly theists don’t have many good arguments against it. That being said, I did not lose my faith because of it even though I was aware of it. I have a few issues with it.

The problem of evil can perhaps best be encapsulated as follows:

If God exists, then God is omnipotent, omniscient, and morally perfect.

1. If God is omnipotent, then God has the power to eliminate all evil.
2. If God is omniscient, then God knows when evil exists.
3. If God is morally perfect, then God has the desire to eliminate all evil.
4. Evil exists.
5. If evil exists and God exists, then either God doesn’t have the power to eliminate all evil, or doesn’t know when evil exists, or doesn’t have the desire to eliminate all evil.
6. Therefore, God doesn’t exist.

My main issue with this line of argument is that evil doesn’t really exist except in the sense of a limited human life. What is evil? Typical examples include, childhood cancer, famine, war, and genocide. I suppose smaller evils include jealousy, anger issues, and impotence.

My issue with these is that they are only evil relative to a rather short human life span. To an eternal being a lifetime of human suffering is insignificant. The universe has been around 13.6 billion years, maybe much longer. Modern humans have only been around for a few hundred thousand years. So your 80 years sucked? God can make up for it in a variety of ways, but especially in an infinitely long paradise.

Or maybe there is reincarnation, and your next life is great. Maybe the Mormons are right and we get to be king of a planet!
Most definitions of evil are defined as basically things that result in death. Death sucks as life is all we can know. But religion promises eternal life. That makes death irrelevant, and therefore defines away evil.

Of course the argument doesn’t demonstrate that god does exist, nor do I believe in such an entity, at least how it is traditionally defined. I don’t believe because there are no good positive arguments for such a god.

But what if god is merely the creator of the laws of physics? His definition of evil is to attempt to disobey them. Indeed trying to cheat them usually does result in harm. That maybe a separate argument.

Your thoughts on the PoE?

If God is omniscient then he would totally comprehend humans short life spans, and what it is like to any human, and that to the humans it is not insignificant.

Indeed. Furthermore if god does make a morally perfect universe, I.e. heaven, then why did he make a morally imperfect world for us to first inhabit?