Proselytizing

[Tom Sawyer]

For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe. Or do you (atheists) live without ever experiencing the awe and joy of gratitude to Something Higher than the terrestrial mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution?

I's respond that I live without it because the universe and my life is awesome enough without the need for that type of silly claptrap. Also, I'd point out that Batman could kick your god's ass if he had time to prepare. That's just to insert Batman into the conversation because conversations about Batman tend to be more interesting than conversations which don't involve him. Also, because it would be fairly difficult for you to refute the claim that Batman could kick your god's ass - because he's Batman.

 

[PyramidHead]

I don’t wish to be free from religion. I am free from it. But I will defend the right of people to proselytize (in appropriate ways) to their hearts content. I wouldn’t invite it though. I just wonder what's going on. I am truly curious why we don’t see that much of it anymore. And I live in the Deep South. You’d think I'd get hit on a lot. Talkfreethought is my only outlet to discuss religion. Sigh.

SLD

Compared to 25 years ago, door-to-door evangelising isn't a very efficient use of your time. That's probably the reason you don't get visited. I'm sure you'd find Friday night street preachers in your nearest city. But if you call them "dumbshit evangelicals" (or liars or creotards or Christo-fascists etc etc) they will probably leave you alone as well.

So that leaves you stuck with Talkfreethought and dumshit evangelicals like me.

And I tend a little more towards what they call 'offensive' apologetic preaching which is to say...critique atheism rather than defend religion.

For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe. Or do you (atheists) live without ever experiencing the awe and joy of gratitude to Something Higher than the terrestrial mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution?

That's not a very compelling critique, though. I suspect most atheists would just accept the second option, that they do not experience the awe and joy of gratitude to god. That's kind of an obvious feature of being an atheist, and not something that would come as a surprise or a "gotcha" moment. The question I would ask in return is: why should we be grateful for life? That, after all, is the unspoken assumption of your original question, and it has not been demonstrated or even examined whether gratitude is the appropriate response to life.

 

[abaddon]

... For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe. Or do you (atheists) live without ever experiencing the awe and joy of gratitude to Something Higher than the terrestrial mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution?

You imagine that a person must be theist to feel joy, awe, and gratitude. There's a clear assumption that the feelings aren't possible if they're not directed to a "Something Higher"... to a mind that guides earth's life and the cosmos' existence.

False on all counts. You know what causes those feelings for YOU. And apparently it's hard to imagine how anyone would do it otherwise.

A "mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution" seems quite a dismal situation to some folk. I don't share that feeling whatsoever.

But this is interesting though. Meaningfulness and superlative experience is a valuable topic to explore, and gets to the heart of religion much more directly than the "religion ain't science so it's false" crap we hear much too much.

 

[skepticalbip]

Compared to 25 years ago, door-to-door evangelising isn't a very efficient use of your time. That's probably the reason you don't get visited. I'm sure you'd find Friday night street preachers in your nearest city. But if you call them "dumbshit evangelicals" (or liars or creotards or Christo-fascists etc etc) they will probably leave you alone as well.

So that leaves you stuck with Talkfreethought and dumshit evangelicals like me.

And I tend a little more towards what they call 'offensive' apologetic preaching which is to say...critique atheism rather than defend religion.

For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe. Or do you (atheists) live without ever experiencing the awe and joy of gratitude to Something Higher than the terrestrial mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution?

And I would consider that to be a rather odd start based on a misunderstanding of those who are not religious.

I majored in physics precisely because of the awe and joy I found in understanding some of the workings of the universe. I wanted more and the more I learned the more in awe I became. There is joy to be found in working out the intricacies of how nature works. Apparently some people who are struck by the awesomeness of nature are driven to learn more about it and some assume an answer that goddidit so stop seeking to understand more about nature and instead seek to become closer to their assumed answer.

 

[RavenSky]

For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe. Or do you (atheists) live without ever experiencing the awe and joy of gratitude to Something Higher than the terrestrial mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution?

Do you alert the innocent atheist who's morning you have so rudely interrupted that you are capitalizing "whom" and "something higher", or is that your silly secret "gotcha"?

To answer your questions, though:

1. To whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe: my parents, my family, my friends, and to scientists throughout the ages.

2. I experience awe and joy and gratitude to all those I've referenced above.

 

[Keith&Co.]

[

. In fact, I've been banned from some fora for doing nothing other than responding to people like SLD.

I am sure that is how you remember it.
I wonder, though, if they might have taken exception to some of your habits, such as warping completely disparate topics around to bitching about abortion? Might have considered that preaching?

 

[Rhea]

Compared to 25 years ago, door-to-door evangelising isn't a very efficient use of your time. That's probably the reason you don't get visited. I'm sure you'd find Friday night street preachers in your nearest city. But if you call them "dumbshit evangelicals" (or liars or creotards or Christo-fascists etc etc) they will probably leave you alone as well.

I'd rather not use nasty language. Why doesn't "No, thank you," ever work with you people?

I'm fine discussing religion here, when I want to, able to leave any time, not interrupting my dinner or waking my baby.
But those door knockers are pieces of work.

So that leaves you stuck with Talkfreethought and dumshit evangelicals like me.

And I tend a little more towards what they call 'offensive' apologetic preaching which is to say...critique atheism rather than defend religion.

funny double entendre.

For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe.

I don't know if "gratitude" is a relevant term. There's joy and exuberance and wonder, tho.

Or do you (atheists) live without ever experiencing the awe and joy of gratitude to Something Higher than the terrestrial mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution?

Awe and joy of gratitude? I have to be grateful to the galaxies to experience joy in them? That's weird.

Do you experience awe and joy of gratitude for the parasitic wasp? Does it just fill your pants for Jesus thinking about His creation that lays eggs inside other beings and then eats it's way out? Thankfulness out the wahoo, right?

 

[Lion IRC]

For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe. Or do you (atheists) live without ever experiencing the awe and joy of gratitude to Something Higher than the terrestrial mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution?

Do you alert the innocent atheist who's morning you have so rudely interrupted that you are capitalizing "whom" and "something higher", or is that your silly secret "gotcha"?

To answer your questions, though:

1. To whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe: my parents, my family, my friends, and to scientists throughout the ages.

2. I experience awe and joy and gratitude to all those I've referenced above.

That's the exact point I was making.

Me :To Whom do you extend your gratitude?
Thee : I don't feel gratitude...for what should be grateful?

Don't say science, parents, friends. I have them too. Secular, platonic gratitude isn't limited to atheists. And for what they specifically deserve, I am just as able to give grateful as you - gratitude is giving credit where credit is due. But misplaced gratitude isn't reasonable/rational.

But there are things we hold in spiritual awe and wonder that didn't cause themselves to exist, yet which we love and for which we exhibit virtual gratitude - and I argue that secular gratitude here is insufficient. If the supposedly past-eternal universe has always existed, why would I as a spec of carbon be 'grateful' for that? That would be like a grain of praising the beach in gratitude.

I would argue that atheist ethereal gratitude and joy aimed at the stars #CarlSagan comes from the God-shaped hole in their heart. You re-badge it and try to give it secular spin but you have spiritual baggage and don't want to let it go.

 

[bilby]

But misplaced gratitude isn't reasonable/rational.

And yet, here you are, doing it anyway.

Being grateful to a figment of your imagination is batshit nutso crazy insane. But you not only do it, you revel in it.

 

[Opoponax]

There's a group outside the courthouse who accost everyone who walks by. It's fucking annoying. They tend to be able to nab lone people who just get done with a divorce proceeding because the exit empties people out in that direction. Nothing like taking advantage of the broke-ass and emotionally distraught.

 

[PyramidHead]

For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe. Or do you (atheists) live without ever experiencing the awe and joy of gratitude to Something Higher than the terrestrial mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution?

Do you alert the innocent atheist who's morning you have so rudely interrupted that you are capitalizing "whom" and "something higher", or is that your silly secret "gotcha"?

To answer your questions, though:

1. To whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe: my parents, my family, my friends, and to scientists throughout the ages.

2. I experience awe and joy and gratitude to all those I've referenced above.

That's the exact point I was making.

Me :To Whom do you extend your gratitude?
Thee : I don't feel gratitude...for what should be grateful?

Don't say science, parents, friends. I have them too. Secular, platonic gratitude isn't limited to atheists. And for what they specifically deserve, I am just as able to give grateful as you - gratitude is giving credit where credit is due. But misplaced gratitude isn't reasonable/rational.

But there are things we hold in spiritual awe and wonder that didn't cause themselves to exist, yet which we love and for which we exhibit virtual gratitude - and I argue that secular gratitude here is insufficient. If the supposedly past-eternal universe has always existed, why would I as a spec of carbon be 'grateful' for that? That would be like a grain of praising the beach in gratitude.

I would argue that atheist ethereal gratitude and joy aimed at the stars #CarlSagan comes from the God-shaped hole in their heart. You re-badge it and try to give it secular spin but you have spiritual baggage and don't want to let it go.

Actually, I completely agree with you here. Totally and without reservation. Which is why I ditch that cosmic gratitude and don't listen to anybody who talks about why I should feel it. And that brings me back to my original point, which was that your opening salvo against atheists is not really a criticism of atheism per se, it's a charge that their atheism is not sincere enough. It's like a meat-eater attacking a vegetarian for not being a vegan. The most likely outcome of the vegetarian conceding defeat in such an exchange is that the vegetarian becomes a vegan based on your argument, which does nothing to bolster your position as a meat-eater!

So, what do you expect to happen if an atheist responds to your line of reasoning with: "You know, you're right, I do have this gratitude and awe of reality that seems similar to religious reverence. Huh. I guess I should stop feeling that way, since I'm not religious. Thanks for the heads-up!" Do you honestly expect any atheist to be converted to belief by simply acknowledging an emotion they already have, rather than questioning whether that emotion is warranted after all? "Gee, I guess my sense of wonder and joy about the universe proves I was actually praising YHWH all along! How silly of me to overlook that!"

 

[Keith&Co.]

Here I was thinking it's probably healthier to take credit for our own actions, and honor up to our own mistakes, rather than try to shift credit to someone else.
But then I realized, we tend to craft gods in the image we need, anyway. So thanking God for something I did is about as self-congratulatory as patting myself on the back, but when I tell others that I thank one or more gods, it sounds humble rather than masturbatory.

It's about lunchtime. I think i'll pray for a couple eggs, over easy, with toast, see how that works out...

 

[abaddon]

I completely disagree with Lion IRC. He's trying to say the feelings belong most properly to theists, so others aren't being 100% genuine in claiming them.

There's PyramidHead's approach of rejecting the feeling for its similarity to "religious" feeling. Which I agree with in regards to "cosmic gratitude". But there are other "spiritual" feelings mentioned, and I'm questioning why they seem appropriate especially to theism.

Consider these two different perspectives:

A. If the feelings are "spiritual" it doesn't mean atheists shouldn't feel them, or cannot feel them as "sufficiently" as theists.

View attachment 18863

While atheism and theism cannot overlap, atheism and religion can. Because religion and theism are not synonyms. Inasmuch as "religious" is an emotive response to the world, there's no reason it's limited to theist ideology.

And so there are self-labelled religious atheists and religious naturalists in the world. Why? Because they have "religious feelings" and would feel they made a human-shaped hole in their hearts to deny them.

So awe, wonder, and similar "religious" feelings or experiences are widely accessible. The object of the affection doesn't change the quality of the affection.

Here's another perspective:

B. Feelings are feelings. They're physiological responses with attendant subjective experiences. Labeling any of them as spiritual or religious is a social convention based on historical happenstance.

Lion IRC displays a prejudice from past times when most people went to churches to feel "special" experiences. So, due to the context, those special feelings/experiences came to be called "religious" or "spiritual".

But they're not inherently religious. It's only the context that created this association between the feeling and religiosity. So it's a mere social convention to associate them.

This time-worn social convention is where the "god-shaped hole" story comes from. There was once a particular metaphysical thing people were supposed to reverence and now not so many people do. So the theist presumes atheists must be miserable without a god stuck in the alleged "hole"...

So there are two other possible atheist responses to the criticism:

1) "OK, so what if I have religious feelings? They're not theistic feelings so it's not a problem".

2) "Ok, so these are feelings we both feel. But yours get labelled "religious" or "spiritual" only because the object they're directed at (God) is religious. Whereas mine are not religious because the object(s) I direct them at are not religious.

 

[abaddon]

Oops, the linked image is broken. Here it is again:

A. If the feelings are "spiritual" it doesn't mean atheists shouldn't feel them, or cannot feel them as "sufficiently" as theists.



While atheism and theism cannot overlap, atheism and religion can. Because religion and theism are not synonyms...

 

[steve_bank]

we all have the same feelings and experiencers. Theists assign it all to god. And then claim exclusivity of experience among other theists. The Vatican has toned it down but claims absolute exclusivity.

Christian proselethizing is about feeling good and presuming others lack what you feel. hen pressuring others to presumably feel like you do.

 

[RavenSky]

For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe. Or do you (atheists) live without ever experiencing the awe and joy of gratitude to Something Higher than the terrestrial mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution?

Do you alert the innocent atheist who's morning you have so rudely interrupted that you are capitalizing "whom" and "something higher", or is that your silly secret "gotcha"?

To answer your questions, though:

1. To whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe: my parents, my family, my friends, and to scientists throughout the ages.

2. I experience awe and joy and gratitude to all those I've referenced above.

That's the exact point I was making.

Me :To Whom do you extend your gratitude?
Thee : I don't feel gratitude...for what should be grateful?

Do you always make up shit that other people DIDN'T say?

Point out where I said I don't feel gratitude.

Don't say science, parents, friends. I have them too. Secular, platonic gratitude isn't limited to atheists.

Did I ever say you didn't? Nope.

And for what they specifically deserve, I am just as able to give grateful as you - gratitude is giving credit where credit is due.

Did I ever say otherwise? Nope

But misplaced gratitude isn't reasonable/rational.

It's not your call to decide if/when my feelings are "misplaced". I reject your statement as purely your own opinion and not relevant to my life.

But there are things we hold in spiritual awe and wonder that didn't cause themselves to exist, yet which we love and for which we exhibit virtual gratitude - and I argue that secular gratitude here is insufficient.

And I reject your premise (the bolded) and your conclusion. Your opinion is your own but has no relevance in my life.

I would argue that atheist ethereal gratitude and joy aimed at the stars #CarlSagan comes from the God-shaped hole in their heart. You re-badge it and try to give it secular spin but you have spiritual baggage and don't want to let it go.

Nope.

Bye bye.

/Closes door in Lion's face

 

[Lion IRC]

PyramidHead and abbadon have pretty much summed up correctly the point I was making.
Not that they both either/neither agreed or disagreed with me but both seem to quite rightly acknowledge that there are only two options.

You either concede that your [placeholder word for gratitude] needs to be rationally justified and explained in secular terms or you must jettison the idea of gratitude all together as unwarranted - because either there is no one to Whom gratitude is owed or there's nothing exceptional to be grateful for.

So my proselytising point remains - is there not a gratitude deficit inherent in atheism?

 

[Ford]

Anyone been proselytized to lately? I live in the Deep South and it never happens to me. Maybe it’s an urban living thing. I kinda wish they would. I wouldn’t mind getting into it with some dumbshit evangelical.

SLD

Maybe 6 months ago a couple Jehovah's Witnesses knocked on my door and I spent some time talking to them.

There was an older man that resembled an Amish guy and he had a young black man in tow who (judging by his accent) was clearly not from around these parts. The dynamic was pretty depressing. The old guy was clearly an old hand at door to door proselytizing and was teaching the younger man how to sell Jesus. Like a lot of us I'd been through this dance a few times, and it seemed like whenever I made a point that caused the young man to stop and think, the old man jumped in with his rebuttal. I thought that if it had been just the young man, I'd have had a nice conversation and maybe even changed his mind, but that wasn't to be.

It's almost like the process of knocking on doors and trying to sell Jesus wasn't to convert those pesky non-believers like me, but to draw that young guy deeper into the cult. I have no doubt that after they left the old guy told his acolyte something about how evil I was, and that "you'll encounter Satan's minions a lot in this job."

 

[RavenSky]

PyramidHead and abbadon have pretty much summed up correctly the point I was making.
Not that they both either/neither agreed or disagreed with me but both seem to quite rightly acknowledge that there are only two options.

You either concede that your [placeholder word for gratitude] needs to be rationally justified and explained in secular terms or you must jettison the idea of gratitude all together as unwarranted - because either there is no one to Whom gratitude is owed or there's nothing exceptional to be grateful for.

So my proselytising point remains - is there not a gratitude deficit inherent in atheism?

Since you COMPLETELY misrepresented what pyramidhead and abbadon said, your entire post is pure nonsense.

So their point remains - if you insist on explicitly or implicitly adding the adjective "godly" (or its euphemism "cosmic") to the word "gratitude", then atheists can rightly agree that there is no such thing as "godly gratitude" (because there is zero evidence for "god").

But "gratitude" (sans any prejudicial modifier) exists as a word and a feeling.

Gratitude: the quality of being thankful; readiness to show appreciation for and to return kindness.

No "god" needed.

And no, there is not a "gratitude deficit inherent in atheism". But there certainly seems to be an intelligence deficit in god-believers.

 

[bigfield]

You either concede that your [placeholder word for gratitude] needs to be rationally justified and explained in secular terms or you must jettison the idea of gratitude all together as unwarranted - because either there is no one to Whom gratitude is owed or there's nothing exceptional to be grateful for.

Where does your argument go from there?