Proselytizing

[southernhybrid]

I know this will probably be wasted on Lion, but back in 2005, the Atlanta Journal Constitution asked people to write a letter to the paper expressing what they were thankful for at Thanksgiving. My letter was published, and I was highly amused that the letter right next to it came from someone who was obviously an extreme fundamentalist Christian. I didn't save all of the letters, but I did save a copy of mine.


I am a humanist, so my Thanksgiving is a secular one with no reference to deities. I am thankful to be living in a time when women in this country are more independent and can openly speak their minds without fear. I am thankful that in small ways, I've had the opportunity to relieve the suffering of others as a nurse, and for humans that have had the intelligence and courage to discover technologies that have made our lives safer, healthier and longer, and for the ability to be awed and find pleasure in the natural world. I'm thankful that I'm healthy and physically fit, for friends and family and the companionship of tiny pets and perhaps most of all, I am thankful for my husband for his love, devotion and loyalty while sharing my joyous life for the past 25 years.


I still feel pretty much the same way, but now my husband and I have enjoyed 38 years of a very happy marriage. I'm still pretty healthy, but have some chronic pain due to the impact of arthritis, which affects a large percentage of older adults. Still, I consider myself to be extremely fortunate, and continue to enjoy life, despite some of the terrible things happening in my country and in the world.

Experiencing joy and gratitude has nothing to do with one's beliefs or lack of beliefs in a god. I've known both atheists and Christians that suffered from the misery of depression. Some of us are just "blessed" not to have had to deal with the type of problems that can rob us of our gratitude and contentment. Some people have a genetic predisposition that makes it difficult for them to be happy. I appreciate the life that I've had and have come to terms long ago that this short life is the only one we get to experience. This thread sure went in a direction that I didn't expect, but with the American Thanksgiving holiday coming up next week, I couldn't help but think of that letter that I wrote 13 years ago.

 

[Rhea]

PyramidHead and abbadon have pretty much summed up correctly the point I was making.

They totally didn't.

Not that they both either/neither agreed or disagreed with me but both seem to quite rightly acknowledge that there are only two options.

The point out that your narrow thinking leaves only two options, which is kind of insane, y'know?

You either concede that your [placeholder word for gratitude] needs to be rationally justified and explained in secular terms or you must jettison the idea of gratitude all together as unwarranted - because either there is no one to Whom gratitude is owed or there's nothing exceptional to be grateful for.

And - problem with identifying where there is no gratitude owed is what, exactly?
If I irrationally thank the little pebble outside my front door when I come home because I claim it keeps my flower pot safe, that's better than just being joyful at living in a safe part of the world?

What a weird way to think you have. Oh, I have a pebble shaped gratitude hole in my heart! How despicable!

So my proselytising point remains - is there not a gratitude deficit inherent in atheism?

You mean a deficit of irrational gratitude? Yah, I guess. We go for gratitude that is based on actual events.
A lack of irrational and unsupported assignment of cause doesn't seem like an especially terrible gap.

We get that you feel good when you imagine your invisible friend, we get that you need an invisble friend to feel good, because you have a sane-shaped hole in your brain. But we don't need invisible friends to feel good, we are capable of feeling good when we see amazing things without imagining an invisible friend made them.

 

[Lion IRC]

You either concede that your [placeholder word for gratitude] needs to be rationally justified and explained in secular terms or you must jettison the idea of gratitude all together as unwarranted - because either there is no one to Whom gratitude is owed or there's nothing exceptional to be grateful for.

Where does your argument go from there?

If the atheist concedes the either/or proposition which I make above then the argument stands.
It doesn't go anywhere.

abaddon claims he and I can both hold to a form of cosmic gratitude - but it's mine which is misplaced because it's directed towards a non-existent entity. He nonetheless concedes there's an element of quasi-religiousness about that type of ethereal gratitude. (We can talk about pantheism/Gaia later)

PyramidHead claims that gratitude is just the wrong word altogether.

I know this will probably be wasted on Lion…

Yes, because you are talking about secular gratitude for terrestrial stuff which atheists and theists alike can both experience. We both applauded the actors at the end of the play. We both are grateful that Beethoven wrote beautiful music. We both give thanks to generous people who help us. I'm not saying atheists don't ever have any valid reasons to be grateful.

Are you grateful for water and air and the sun and the trees?
If so, why? Did Somebody provide them?

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Anyone been proselytized to lately? I live in the Deep South and it never happens to me. Maybe it’s an urban living thing. I kinda wish they would. I wouldn’t mind getting into it with some dumbshit evangelical.

SLD

This post confirms my suspicion that many unbelievers deliberately provoke/invite proselytising while ostensibly considering themselves part of a group that wishes it was free from religion.

This forum has a "no preaching" rule while simultaneously allowing/encouraging counter-apologists and anti-theists to interrogate people like me about what we think and why. In fact, I've been banned from some fora for doing nothing other than responding to people like SLD.

Yeah I totally can't understand why an atheist would be mad that they're dehumanized by being told they have no morality.

 

[bilby]

If the atheist concedes the either/or proposition which I make above then the argument stands.
It doesn't go anywhere.

abaddon claims he and I can both hold to a form of cosmic gratitude - but it's mine which is misplaced because it's directed towards a non-existent entity. He nonetheless concedes there's an element of quasi-religiousness about that type of ethereal gratitude. (We can talk about pantheism/Gaia later)

PyramidHead claims that gratitude is just the wrong word altogether.

I know this will probably be wasted on Lion…

Yes, because you are talking about secular gratitude for terrestrial stuff which atheists and theists alike can both experience. We both applauded the actors at the end of the play. We both are grateful that Beethoven wrote beautiful music. We both give thanks to generous people who help us. I'm not saying atheists don't ever have any valid reasons to be grateful.

Are you grateful for water and air and the sun and the trees?
If so, why? Did Somebody provide them?

Water was 'provided' by comets impacting the early Earth. Air was provided by early cyanobacteria who wiped out a sizeable fraction of life on Earth in the process. The sun is an inevitable consequence of the existence of hydrogen and gravity. Trees evolved, just like we did.

Gratitude for these natural and morally neutral things would be misplaced to the point of insanity.

Humans like their environment when it's not trying to kill them, because they evolved within it, and liking the peaceful times and places is a good survival strategy.

If you were dumb enough to start from the false premise that some kind of super-parent was responsible for actively creating the environment in which you thrive (an understandable but foolish extension of the observation that your actual parents made your early life survivable), then I could see how you might feel an odd sense of gratitude towards that imaginary agent.

But that's no more an accurate assessment of reality than your intuition that a Necker cube is three dimensional.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

For example, if I knocked on your door and you, as an atheist, wanted to chat, I would start by asking to Whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe. Or do you (atheists) live without ever experiencing the awe and joy of gratitude to Something Higher than the terrestrial mundane world of accidental, unguided evolution?

Do you alert the innocent atheist who's morning you have so rudely interrupted that you are capitalizing "whom" and "something higher", or is that your silly secret "gotcha"?

To answer your questions, though:

1. To whom you direct your gratitude for this life, this world, this universe: my parents, my family, my friends, and to scientists throughout the ages.

2. I experience awe and joy and gratitude to all those I've referenced above.

That's the exact point I was making.

Me :To Whom do you extend your gratitude?
Thee : I don't feel gratitude...for what should be grateful?

Don't say science, parents, friends. I have them too. Secular, platonic gratitude isn't limited to atheists. And for what they specifically deserve, I am just as able to give grateful as you - gratitude is giving credit where credit is due. But misplaced gratitude isn't reasonable/rational.

But there are things we hold in spiritual awe and wonder that didn't cause themselves to exist, yet which we love and for which we exhibit virtual gratitude - and I argue that secular gratitude here is insufficient. If the supposedly past-eternal universe has always existed, why would I as a spec of carbon be 'grateful' for that? That would be like a grain of praising the beach in gratitude.

I would argue that atheist ethereal gratitude and joy aimed at the stars #CarlSagan comes from the God-shaped hole in their heart. You re-badge it and try to give it secular spin but you have spiritual baggage and don't want to let it go.

You're right. I shouldn't be curious about your opinion, then, and I should not read it. In fact, you just gave me even more of a reason not to become religious, because I'm no longer curious about truth. Why would I be interested in learning anything about your religion? I'm just an atheist who has no reason to be curious about anything.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

By the way the fact that everything is insignificant would be equally insignificant as everything else, so why would it be a big deal that everything is insignificant? Hint: it wouldn't. Why then ought I spend so much time thinking about how everything is so insignificant and that I need to be depressed because of it? I would have no existential crisis because there is nothing I would believe I ought to feel about it, I would have no beliefs about anything (including "the world is absurd"). It would defeat itself. So really, we would be liberated from suffering. No need for religion.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Everything is futile. Violence and suicide are also futile.

 

[steve_bank]

Gratitude for being born is expression of a feeling. Nothing wrong with that. If you carry it to an extreme objectivity we are just a chemical process with no inherent anything. Kill as you please, life is cheap.

The point theists make is without religion things can turn worse that where we are now. They may have a point in that without some philosophy then we are just chemicals. No special value in anything.

The flipside is the ugly ingratitude of Trump for all thongs but himself.

 

[abaddon]

abaddon claims he and I can both hold to a form of cosmic gratitude - but it's mine which is misplaced because it's directed towards a non-existent entity. He nonetheless concedes there's an element of quasi-religiousness about that type of ethereal gratitude. (We can talk about pantheism/Gaia later)

No actually I denied there are any spiritual feelings. "Religious", "spiritual" and "secular" are ideological terms. But feelings are not ideological, they're physiological.

Are you grateful for water and air and the sun and the trees?

If so, why? Did Somebody provide them?

I'll give my answer to that.

Yes. Grateful. It's not the first choice of word that comes to mind, precisely because the vague implicit sense in the word (about gifts being provided) makes it feel a little "off".

"Appreciate" works better - as in recognizing value in nature's phenomena.

But in saying Yes, I mean "grateful" as appreciative of the terrestrial and mundane facts.

"Grateful" at worst is indulging a little anthropomorphism. Which isn't making humans or gods of things and it'd be an absurd exaggeration to suggest it. The only problem with anthropomorphism is if anyone stops indulging in it a bit, and goes nuts with it. Like when a theist takes a projection of his psyche and, due to a lack of self-awareness, turns it into an ontological being that he then insists is independently real. Then others are expected to "reasonably" accept his projection, or they're deficient.

I think existing is worth celebrating because nature and life are awesome and wondrous. Some of nature can bite me, but on the whole I like existence.

And now, I ask, so what? Even if a word-choice implied a provider, how is that either 1) a problem for atheism or 2) support for the existence of God?

 

[Rhea]

Gratitude for being born is expression of a feeling. Nothing wrong with that.

Do you mean "gratitude," like, I'm glad to be here or do you mean "gratitude," like, I need to thank that being for making me be here?

If you carry it to an extreme objectivity we are just a chemical process with no inherent anything. Kill as you please, life is cheap.

What? No.
Just because we don't see any evidence for a creating being doesn't mean we think life is cheap. On the contrary it's precious because it's random and unpredicatble.

The point theists make is without religion things can turn worse that where we are now. They may have a point in that without some philosophy then we are just chemicals. No special value in anything.

What? No.
The value is in enjoying life as we have it, and the fact that we're just chemicals is not relevant to that. Although it does make wonderful inquiry into how the chemicals do what they do - and this leads to years of joyful research and exploration!

The flipside is the ugly ingratitude of Trump for all thongs but himself.

What? That's not flip side, that's ugly narcissistic dysfunction.

The "flip side" to having "gratitude" to some imaginary creator is having joy at the natural world.



It is SO WEIRD when religionists start talking about this route - as if they are admitting that they are just one faith crisis away from being rapists and murderers. Like it's something y'all think about all the time and only your religion keeps you from doing it.

You are a creepy scary bunch!

 

[Rhea]

Today, Neil deGrasse Tyson posted:

As an astrophysicist, I know how and why the Sun generates energy in its core. But I nontheless well-up at the sight of a majestic sunset, which brings out the poet in us all.

("Twelve Apostles" rock formation. The Great Oean Road, Australia. August 2015)

it's so easy to be wonder and awe and emotion. And no need to claim someone made it.

 

[steve_bank]

A creepy ugly existence is one without a sense of poetry. If you do not understand what I mean by expressing gratitude then it is pointless to explain. Tyson's quote says it all.You have just rejected the human history of art, music's, poetry, and literature. Rejecting the human 'soul'.

 

[RavenSky]

Today, Neil deGrasse Tyson posted:

As an astrophysicist, I know how and why the Sun generates energy in its core. But I nontheless well-up at the sight of a majestic sunset, which brings out the poet in us all.

("Twelve Apostles" rock formation. The Great Oean Road, Australia. August 2015)

it's so easy to be wonder and awe and emotion. And no need to claim someone made it.

I saw that, and thought of this thread, too. He said it so well.

 

[Rhea]

A creepy ugly existence is one without a sense of poetry. If you do not understand what I mean by expressing gratitude then it is pointless to explain. Tyson's quote says it all.You have just rejected the human history of art, music's, poetry, and literature. Rejecting the human 'soul'.

Wait - how did I suddenly end up without poetry?

Can you please explain what you all mean by this word "gratitude"?
Because you are using it in very strange ways.

"Gratitude" is not a synonym for poetry.
It is not a synonym for joy.
It is not a synonym for art, music or literature.
It is not a synonym for awe.
It is not a synonym for wonder.
It is not a synonym for happiness.

Gratitude means feeling that someone, some being, has done something that you like and you owe them an acknowledgement of it.

 

[Rhea]

grat·i·tude
/ˈɡradəˌto͞od/
noun
the quality of being thankful; readiness to show appreciation for and to return kindness.
"she expressed her gratitude to the committee for their support"
synonyms: gratefulness, thankfulness, thanks, appreciation, indebtedness; recognition, acknowledgment, credit
"Chip was miffed by his nephew's lack of gratitude"​

Incidentally, the universe never gets miffed for anyone's lack of gratitude. It makes rainbows anyway.

 

[RavenSky]

It's basically "god of the gaps" except now they are trying to claim language.

 

[WAB]

Deleted. See next post.

 

[WAB]

Do you mean "gratitude," like, I'm glad to be here or do you mean "gratitude," like, I need to thank that being for making me be here?



What? No.
Just because we don't see any evidence for a creating being doesn't mean we think life is cheap. On the contrary it's precious because it's random and unpredicatble.

The point theists make is without religion things can turn worse that where we are now. They may have a point in that without some philosophy then we are just chemicals. No special value in anything.

What? No.
The value is in enjoying life as we have it, and the fact that we're just chemicals is not relevant to that. Although it does make wonderful inquiry into how the chemicals do what they do - and this leads to years of joyful research and exploration!

The flipside is the ugly ingratitude of Trump for all thongs but himself.

What? That's not flip side, that's ugly narcissistic dysfunction.

The "flip side" to having "gratitude" to some imaginary creator is having joy at the natural world.



It is SO WEIRD when religionists start talking about this route - as if they are admitting that they are just one faith crisis away from being rapists and murderers. Like it's something y'all think about all the time and only your religion keeps you from doing it.

You are a creepy scary bunch!

With all due respect, Rhea, I don't think there's anything creepy or scary about what Steve said. Quite the contrary. It's the valueless, aweless, wonderless, strictly materialist* view of life that I find creepy and scary. Hence the need for art and poetry.

ETA: *Not that atheists are valueless, aweless, wonderless, or strictly materialist, necessarily or in general.

Sorry if I have misread all this...

 

[abaddon]

... It's the valueless, aweless, wonderless, strictly materialist* view of life that I find creepy and scary. Hence the need for art and poetry.

ETA: *Not that atheists are valueless, aweless, wonderless, or strictly materialist, necessarily or in general.

Sorry if I have misread all this...

I am an artist and reader of poetry. And as a philosophical naturalist in my "worldview", I know of nothing in nature that'd make me think there's anything more than matter and emergent properties like consciousness. As well as qualitative experiences within consciousness like awe and wonder and meaning.

So I'm wondering if it's me being "inconsistent" with my worldview to feel those? Or maybe it's some people are being goofy to think you need a mysterious "something more" than material existence to feel awe and wonder?

If what I described isn't "strictly materialist" then what needs to be removed from what I described to get that way? and why?