RACISM SOLVED on IIDB! "This whole business about whether someone had ancestors who were a slave or slaveholder is just ridiculous. It means nothing."

[Elixir]

I was taught that the civil war was over states rights in grade school and high school.

I was taught in a public elementary school in white white Connecticut, that the CW was about States’ rights to own slaves.
Guess I still think that was the big issue.

 

[Politesse]

Of course you are correct that the civil war was about slavery. It's interesting to me that so many on the right hand on this false meme that it was about "states rights". I'd be curious from someone with a good theory that explains this? As an aside, I was taught that the civil war was over states rights in grade school and high school.

I highly recommend a watch of Cynical Historian's video on how the "War of Northern Aggression" was invented: Understanding the Lost Cause Myth. Essentially, "state's rights" is an argument that was made at the time, but it was in the 20th century after many of the key collaborators had died and Reconstruction was getting shredded in the Congress under the guise of wartime unity that it was elevated to THE reason for the war, and it was always a dubious claim, since many of the chief complaints the South had about the Federal Government was that it refused to intervene on their behalf against the Northern and incoming frontier states.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yeah, the right place would be a holocaust museum--but I don't think anyone wants to spend the money. I was just saying that if the KKKers want to keep them around as important art I would not object to them building a museum. They fund it, though.

They are already costing $ to maintain them where they are, so there is some savings there. Then put a national tax on flags sold in the US of enemies of the US who killed US soldiers.

Strongly disagree on the tax--first amendment.

And the monuments are generally not costing much of anything, they just sit there.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Years ago, I don't remember details, there was a kerfuffle over a statue of Robert E Lee.
It was heroically oversized, Lee mounted on a steed with upraised sword. There was talk of blowing it up. There was talk of removing it to some private location.

The suggestion I liked best was this.
Add a similarly heroic sized statue of Harriet Tubman in front of Lee. One fist raised in defiance and the other arm gathering cowering children behind her.
Tom

A very fitting solution.

 

[Gospel]

We sure do. It is a good reason to recognize and remember the evil done as well as the good.

Plenty of good people have done positive things. There's absolutely no need to recognize any supposed good that came from truly evil people. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you seem to be implying that good things came out of the Confederacy. That's laughable—I'll have to disagree.

 

[Gospel]

To clarify my answer to the original post again: This matters purely on a cultural level. Anyone who tries to make it about anything else is simply uninformed. There are significant cultural differences among Black people. If you're unaware of this and think all Black people are the same, to put it mildly, you're ignorant.

 

[Toni]

We sure do. It is a good reason to recognize and remember the evil done as well as the good.

Plenty of good people have done positive things. There's absolutely no need to recognize any supposed good that came from truly evil people. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you seem to be implying that good things came out of the Confederacy. That's laughable—I'll have to disagree.

Absolutely NOT! As far as anything good coming out of the Confederacy: they lost. That’s it. End of.

Individual people? I think people are much more complicated than that. It’s easiest to look at examples of famous people. Thomas Jefferson was a great man—a statesman, author of the Declaration of Independence, architect, inventor, philosopher, -/who had children by a woman he enslaved. Charlie Chaplin—a comedic genius, began an affair with a seventeen year old Oona O’Neill when he was on his 50’s. Sure, he married her but…Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin, Henry Ford’s politics are bone chilling. Tons of artists are known to be abusive towards intimate partners and many have been accused and some convicted of sexual assaults.

And, btw, just to add some weird controversy to this thread. Do any of you know there was also a small percentage of Black people in the US who owned slaves? I learned that recently. A lot of what happened was as much due to class as it was to race. Poor white people may have been racist, but they didn't own slaves. If you want to learn more about that, read the book, "Poor White Trash, the 400 year history of Classism in America. ( I might not have the title exact, but you can find it on Amazon ) it's another good book about how the British treated poor white people and sent them to this country where they were often involuntary indentured servants. In fact, one part of the book discusses how some Black folks, thought these poor white people were being treated worse then they were. Humans are tribal and they often treat those outside their groups poorly, assuming they have the wealth and power to do so.

Are you suggesting that the system of slavery in America was driven more by classism than by racist ideologies? There are people flying Confederate flags down here who would eagerly embrace that narrative. While I haven't read the book you mentioned, my understanding of Black people who owned slaves is that many of them did so to protect family members and friends, often purchasing them to secure their freedom. Your statement seems to imply that all these individuals were motivated by the same intentions as white supremacists, which disregards the reality of millions of people being forcibly taken from Africa because they were PROPERTY, not because they were poor.

Edit: Classism was for white people bruh. Poverty sucks, but being in poverty with the added bonus of being someone else's property because you're not seen as a human (by law) is some other shit.

No, I never implied that. I was just saying that people of different backgrounds have been treated poorly throughout. history, and that I learned that many poor white people were forced here to become indentured. servants, similar but likely not as brutal as absolute slavery. I've read the outstanding book of Frederick Douglas three times, so I've read first hand what slavery was about, written by a man who was enslaved and who detailed a lot of how he was treated. To me, he was a true American hero, a talented writer and an intellectual, who was able to escape the cruelty of slavery and then go on to become an influence on government.

Despite our country's failing these days, let's all be glad that we have moved on since the 19th Century.

However horrible indentured servitude was, it paled in comparison to slavery. We cannot begin to compare the two.

 

[Politesse]

Individual people? I think people are much more complicated than that. It’s easiest to look at examples of famous people. Thomas Jefferson was a great man—a statesman, author of the Declaration of Independence, architect, inventor, philosopher, -/who had children by a woman he enslaved.

Thomas Jefferson inherited Sally Hemings through his marriage to her blood family. She was born a slave, property to her father, his father-in law. The latter had bought her mother from his business friend Captain Hemings on recommendation, raped her, and impregnated her. Such that around a decade later, Thomas could do the same thing to her daughter, his half-sister by marriage and a girl of no more than fourteen, possibly much younger. Not a crime, according to Jefferson and most of his contemporaries, since she was property, not a person. Her one quarter African heritage ensured that her case could never be heard in any court. If there was ever any legal matter involving her, it would have been Jefferson's own responsibilty to address the court on behalf of the movable property he owned, just the same as if it had been his livestock in contention. But there wasn't a case anyway. Aside from a few snickers from political insiders at his expense, no one ever told Jefferson no. It was his job, as a white landowner, to tell other people yes or no. All the while, blithely assuring his French revolutionary friends that they were "making progress" on emancipation in Virginia while quietly working to prevent or delay that very thing by all of the considerable means available to him.

Jefferson deserves every condemnation imaginable, especially because - not in spite of - the revolutionary ideals he claimed to hold, but when push came to shove utterly failed to uphold in any respect. Hypocrisy is not does not become a virtue because the ideals one violates by it are significantly noble. It's amazing how people who in the abstract think nothing of saying "slavery is wrong" or "pedophiles should all be jailed for life" or "I can't even imagine wanting to commit incest" suddenly start hemming and hawing and appealing to the unfamothably complex grey morality of life when it comes time for one of the nation's Great Men to come up for a review of their actions.

 

[Gospel]

Individual people? I think people are much more complicated than that. It’s easiest to look at examples of famous people. Thomas Jefferson was a great man—a statesman, author of the Declaration of Independence, architect, inventor, philosopher, -/who had children by a woman he enslaved. Charlie Chaplin—a comedic genius, began an affair with a seventeen year old Oona O’Neill when he was on his 50’s. Sure, he married her but…Jerry Lee Lewis married his 13 year old cousin, Henry Ford’s politics are bone chilling. Tons of artists are known to be abusive towards intimate partners and many have been accused and some convicted of sexual assaults.

Understood and I agree. My comments were in consideration of Confederate statues and their connection to African American history. When I said there is no need to acknowledge any good from those individuals, I should have clarified that I meant this does not justify preserving their statues. They did not contribute positively to American history in the way someone like Thomas Jefferson did, who I see as a more typical historical figure.

If I were to consider someone a great man, I'd think it's someone who risked their life for their beliefs without being hypocritical, like Martin Luther King Jr.

Spoke out against violence without perpetrating it.
Advocated against slavery without treating Black people like slaves.

That sort of thing.

 

[Gospel]

I'd like to add something to the "move on from the 19th century" movement. People say things have gotten better since then. Sure, they have, but only because we no longer allow those actions to occur. The same type of horrible people who enslaved black people are still around today. It's easy for you to move on because, if society collapses, they won't come looking for you.

Just sayin

 

[Toni]

I'd like to add something to the "move on from the 19th century" movement. People say things have gotten better since then. Sure, they have, but only because we no longer allow those actions to occur. The same type of horrible people who enslaved black people are still around today. It's easy for you to move on because, if society collapses, they won't come looking for you.

Just sayin

Not the same thing but as a woman, they are definitely coming after me already. I may be white and way past childbearing age and I may be one of the 'good ones who bore children for her spouse' but that does not mean I'm not a target. Women were not exactly enslaved but to many, we were mere chattel. That is definitely something that is on deck....

 

[marc]

I would add that while many people in history did a mix of good and bad things, we put up monuments to honor/remember the good. Like FDR, we can make monuments to remember his efforts to combat the Great Depression, or WWII, we do not make statues of him to remember the Japanese internment. We do not put up statues of Jefferson in remembrance of his owning slaves. If someone connected to the confederacy did something of significance that was actually good, then maybe they could be honored for that, but such an honor should be devoid of any reference to the confederacy except to denounce that part of their life.

 

[Gospel]

I'd like to add something to the "move on from the 19th century" movement. People say things have gotten better since then. Sure, they have, but only because we no longer allow those actions to occur. The same type of horrible people who enslaved black people are still around today. It's easy for you to move on because, if society collapses, they won't come looking for you.

Just sayin

Not the same thing but as a woman, they are definitely coming after me already. I may be white and way past childbearing age and I may be one of the 'good ones who bore children for her spouse' but that does not mean I'm not a target. Women were not exactly enslaved but to many, we were mere chattel. That is definitely something that is on deck....

Yeah, but it's not common for people to tell women to just "get over it", like they often do with Black people when discussing the history of slavery and its ongoing impact. It's one of the main go-to tools in the utility belt right next to "we've come a long way". As if we need a reminder of how things are now compared to how they were.

 

[Toni]

I'd like to add something to the "move on from the 19th century" movement. People say things have gotten better since then. Sure, they have, but only because we no longer allow those actions to occur. The same type of horrible people who enslaved black people are still around today. It's easy for you to move on because, if society collapses, they won't come looking for you.

Just sayin

Not the same thing but as a woman, they are definitely coming after me already. I may be white and way past childbearing age and I may be one of the 'good ones who bore children for her spouse' but that does not mean I'm not a target. Women were not exactly enslaved but to many, we were mere chattel. That is definitely something that is on deck....

Yeah, but it's not common for people to tell women to just "get over it", like they often do with Black people when discussing the history of slavery and its ongoing impact. It's one of the main go-to tools in the utility belt right next to "we've come a long way". As if we need a reminder of how things are now compared to how they were.

Oh, it's not at all the same! Totally agree.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I'd like to add something to the "move on from the 19th century" movement. People say things have gotten better since then. Sure, they have, but only because we no longer allow those actions to occur. The same type of horrible people who enslaved black people are still around today. It's easy for you to move on because, if society collapses, they won't come looking for you.

Just sayin

Not the same thing but as a woman, they are definitely coming after me already. I may be white and way past childbearing age and I may be one of the 'good ones who bore children for her spouse' but that does not mean I'm not a target. Women were not exactly enslaved but to many, we were mere chattel. That is definitely something that is on deck....

As a white male, I think I have some 'splaing to do.

I'd agree with Toni, the crosshairs are more on women than blacks. In general, that part of white America aren't against blacks, they are more just completely indifferent to them and apathetic. They don't want urban areas targeted for funding. Like lunch at public schools. They just want you to go away. After all, don't you know white people have troubles too?

Women on the other hand, the far right-wing (Project 2025) views women as having gone way beyond their bounds, and that life was so much easier* wen women knew their place. As we have seen with abortion, it has nothing to do with the life of the fetus and everything to do with controlling a woman's ability to exist in the capitalistic system. There is a strong "conservative" movement to pull women back to the 19th or so century. Not quite Taliban and more like old school Catholic Church where pregnancy is used as a tool of oppression.

For a bonus, the alt-right want gays, transgenders, etc... to stop existing all together. Not quite Nazi-style, but probably more V for Vendetta style.

The interesting thing is a super majority of America is against all of this. Yet, the chances of more of this movement being put forth is close to 50-50.

 

[Toni]

I'd like to add something to the "move on from the 19th century" movement. People say things have gotten better since then. Sure, they have, but only because we no longer allow those actions to occur. The same type of horrible people who enslaved black people are still around today. It's easy for you to move on because, if society collapses, they won't come looking for you.

Just sayin

Not the same thing but as a woman, they are definitely coming after me already. I may be white and way past childbearing age and I may be one of the 'good ones who bore children for her spouse' but that does not mean I'm not a target. Women were not exactly enslaved but to many, we were mere chattel. That is definitely something that is on deck....

As a white male, I think I have some 'splaing to do.

I'd agree with Toni, the crosshairs are more on women than blacks. In general, that part of white America aren't against blacks, they are more just completely indifferent to them and apathetic. They don't want urban areas targeted for funding. Like lunch at public schools. They just want you to go away. After all, don't you know white people have troubles too?

Women on the other hand, the far right-wing (Project 2025) views women as having gone way beyond their bounds, and that life was so much easier* wen women knew their place. As we have seen with abortion, it has nothing to do with the life of the fetus and everything to do with controlling a woman's ability to exist in the capitalistic system. There is a strong "conservative" movement to pull women back to the 19th or so century. Not quite Taliban and more like old school Catholic Church where pregnancy is used as a tool of oppression.

For a bonus, the alt-right want gays, transgenders, etc... to stop existing all together. Not quite Nazi-style, but probably more V for Vendetta style.

The interesting thing is a super majority of America is against all of this. Yet, the chances of more of this movement being put forth is close to 50-50.

Oh, I don’t think that women are more in the crosshairs than blacks! I just think that right now, it’s more politically correct to attack women via abortion rights and IVF. Not that it’s limited to reproduction choices or medical care. How can anyone think it is not wholesome to ‘save babies??’ And what is more noble than a woman giving her life giving birth?? Plus, trust me, women are more conflicted about these issues than black people are about being regarded as fully human and autonomous human beings with full rights.

But while women have been locked in institutions for expressing our sexuality or just for convenience, and while our male allies are always helpfully pointing out how we can be raped—we have it better. Women have not been lynched and except for some prostitutes we are not literally sold. For starters. True, black men have had the right to vote and to their own credit history longer than women but women have not been victims of the pipeline to incarceration that black people have been.

For starters.

 

[TomC]

The interesting thing is a super majority of America is against all of this. Yet, the chances of more of this movement being put forth is close to 50-50.

And the reason isn't complex. They don't vote.
If everyone in the USA voted their conscience this would be a profoundly different (and better) country. But the Democratic base is rather a list of low turnout demographics.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Oh, I don’t think that women are more in the crosshairs than blacks!

They are. It is easier to control women than men. But it is a rat race.

I just think that right now, it’s more politically correct to attack women via abortion rights and IVF. Not that it’s limited to reproduction choices or medical care. How can anyone think it is not wholesome to ‘save babies??’ And what is more noble than a woman giving her life giving birth?? Plus, trust me, women are more conflicted about these issues than black people are about being regarded as fully human and autonomous human beings with full rights.

But while women have been locked in institutions for expressing our sexuality or just for convenience, and while our male allies are always helpfully pointing out how we can be raped—we have it better. Women have not been lynched and except for some prostitutes we are not literally sold. For starters. True, black men have had the right to vote and to their own credit history longer than women but women have not been victims of the pipeline to incarceration that black people have been.

For starters.

While homes are not prisons, they are being remodeled by the conservatives to start being more like one.

John is a physician, and perhaps--(I would not say it to a living soul, of course, but this is dead paper and a great relief to my mind)--perhaps that is one reason I do not get well faster.

You see he does not believe I am sick!

And what can one do?

If a physician of high standing, and one's own husband, assures friends and relatives that there is really nothing the matter with one but temporary nervous depression--a slight hysterical tendency--what is one to do?

My brother is also a physician, and also of high standing, and he says the same thing.

So I take phosphates or phosphites--whichever it is, and tonics, and journeys, and air, and exercise, and am absolutely forbidden to "work" until I am well again.

Personally, I disagree with their ideas.

Personally, I believe that congenial work, with excitement and change, would do me good.

But what is one to do?

 

[Toni]

I'd like to add something to the "move on from the 19th century" movement. People say things have gotten better since then. Sure, they have, but only because we no longer allow those actions to occur. The same type of horrible people who enslaved black people are still around today. It's easy for you to move on because, if society collapses, they won't come looking for you.

Just sayin

Not the same thing but as a woman, they are definitely coming after me already. I may be white and way past childbearing age and I may be one of the 'good ones who bore children for her spouse' but that does not mean I'm not a target. Women were not exactly enslaved but to many, we were mere chattel. That is definitely something that is on deck....

As a white male, I think I have some 'splaing to do.

I'd agree with Toni, the crosshairs are more on women than blacks. In general, that part of white America aren't against blacks, they are more just completely indifferent to them and apathetic. They don't want urban areas targeted for funding. Like lunch at public schools. They just want you to go away. After all, don't you know white people have troubles too?

Women on the other hand, the far right-wing (Project 2025) views women as having gone way beyond their bounds, and that life was so much easier* wen women knew their place. As we have seen with abortion, it has nothing to do with the life of the fetus and everything to do with controlling a woman's ability to exist in the capitalistic system. There is a strong "conservative" movement to pull women back to the 19th or so century. Not quite Taliban and more like old school Catholic Church where pregnancy is used as a tool of oppression.

For a bonus, the alt-right want gays, transgenders, etc... to stop existing all together. Not quite Nazi-style, but probably more V for Vendetta style.

The interesting thing is a super majority of America is against all of this. Yet, the chances of more of this movement being put forth is close to 50-50.

Oh, I don’t think that women are more in the crosshairs than blacks! I just think that right now, it’s more politically correct to attack women via abortion rights and IVF. Not that it’s limited to reproduction choices or medical care. How can anyone think it is not wholesome to ‘save babies??’ And what is more noble than a woman giving her life giving birth?? Plus, trust me, women are more conflicted about these issues than black people are about being regarded as fully human and autonomous human beings with full rights.

But while women have been locked in institutions for expressing our sexuality or just for convenience, and while our male allies are always helpfully pointing out how we can be raped—we have it better. Women have not been lynched and except for some prostitutes we are not literally sold. For starters. True, black men have had the right to vote and to their own credit history longer than women but women have not been victims of the pipeline to incarceration that black people have been.

For starters.

While homes are not prisons, they are being remodeled by the conservatives to start being more like one.

John is a physician, and perhaps--(I would not say it to a living soul, of course, but this is dead paper and a great relief to my mind)--perhaps that is one reason I do not get well faster.

You see he does not believe I am sick!

And what can one do?

If a physician of high standing, and one's own husband, assures friends and relatives that there is really nothing the matter with one but temporary nervous depression--a slight hysterical tendency--what is one to do?

My brother is also a physician, and also of high standing, and he says the same thing.

So I take phosphates or phosphites--whichever it is, and tonics, and journeys, and air, and exercise, and am absolutely forbidden to "work" until I am well again.

Personally, I disagree with their ideas.

Personally, I believe that congenial work, with excitement and change, would do me good.

But what is one to do?

Oh, I know. I very definitely know. I very much know how I grew up, and how my mother and grandmother grew up. I know how disposable women are. How we can be eaten and raped into submission.

We’re not going back. Men who try should sleep with one eye open.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Oh, I know. I very definitely know. I very much know how I grew up, and how my mother and grandmother grew up. I know how disposable women are. How we can be eaten and raped into submission.

You see, this shit is new to me. And I get scared when I see old school Catholicism becoming popular among the right-wing.

We’re not going back. Men who try should sleep with one eye open.

That is quite optimistic. If Trump wins, you probably are going back, at least, depending on your state. If Harris wins, it'll be put on pause. America definitely appears to be becoming Two Americas. The one where people exist, and the one where demographics exist in a neatly arranged caste system.