Rand Paul Knows 50% of People on Disability are Faking it.

[AthenaAwakened]

Even if lots of people were faking disability, that would not justify a failure to adequately support those who are not. If it was determined that $X/month is needed by disabled persons, and that Y% of recipients of that benefit are committing fraud, then the humane and correct response is to pay $X to those who are legitimate claimants, and to detect, investigate and ultimately jail, those who can be shown to be committing fraud. Paying $(Y% of X)/month, or indeed any amount $<X/month, fails to adequately help the needy, while still rewarding the fraudsters, and is a lose-lose solution.

Reducing the funding for disability benefits is not capable of solving (or even of beginning to address) the issue of fraud. Evidence of fraud might be motivation to spend more on enforcement - but cannot be logically defended as motivation to spend less per claimant on benefits to those known not to be fraudsters, in some misguided attempt to punish those who are getting away with fraud.

Of course, first you need actual evidence that fraud is currently sufficiently common as to be worth the cost of additional enforcement measures.

The whole 'reducing spending on suspicion' approach is ugly as fuck, and dumb as dogshit, and people like Rand Paul who suggest it need a fucking smack.

"You must spread some reputation around before giving it to bilby again."

reputation hell!

I want him to move to NC cuz we sure do need him

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

That's the trick. If you can leap through the hoops, you aren't disabled.

Regardless, the Republicans saved us from ACORN related voter fraud, saved us all from the Ebola epidemic, and now put their sights on disability fraud. Can someone remind how much fraud Rick Scott's company was caught in defrauding Medicare?

Don't forget voting fraud that arises from making voting convenient to voters.

Dude, in cities, voter turnout was 110%. Look it up!

*sigh*

 

[Underseer]

What percent of people on disability do you think are faking it?

You would have to ask the Social Security Administration, or the Department of Justice.

You certainly can't just pull a random number out of your ass, which is what Rand Paul did.

Of course you can.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Therefore, any information that is the result of a proper study is wrong, therefore any number I make up is correct. You would understand this if you didn't get most of your information from biased sources. [/conservolibertarian]

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Even if many were fraudulent, that is no reason to reduce funding. It may be a reason to spend more on screening, but only if that saves more than it costs.

 

[laughing dog]

I hope that at least 50.01% US voting public knows Rand Paul is faking sanity when he runs for POTUS.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

You would have to ask the Social Security Administration, or the Department of Justice.

You certainly can't just pull a random number out of your ass, which is what Rand Paul did.

Of course you can.

Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Therefore, any information that is the result of a proper study is wrong, therefore any number I make up is correct. You would understand this if you didn't get most of your information from biased sources. [/conservolibertarian]

And Rand Paul is exactly a Conservolibertarian, so people won't be able to unhack that one.

 

[Keith&Co.]

"What I tell people is, if you look like me and you hop out of your truck, you shouldn't be getting a disability check.

I knew a missile tech who got discharged from the Navy and stayed in the city around the base. I ran into him at a shopping center. He pulled into the handicapped parking as my wife and i were walking past it. He hopped out of his truck and said 'hi.' I introduced him to my wife and asked how he was doing.
As we were talking, a little old lady walked up and said that he shouldn't abuse the handicapped parking space if he wasn't handicapped.
Red shouted, 'Abuse?' Then he took his prosthetic leg off and beat it on the hood of his truck. "How goddamned disabled do i have to be!?!?!" he cried. Then he charged after her, hopping on one foot, waving his leg and swearing at the top of his lungs.
I watched him go and turned to my wife. "It's sad, really, how much that traffic accident quieted him down." And we went on our way.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

"What I tell people is, if you look like me and you hop out of your truck, you shouldn't be getting a disability check.

I knew a missile tech who got discharged from the Navy and stayed in the city around the base. I ran into him at a shopping center. He pulled into the handicapped parking as my wife and i were walking past it. He hopped out of his truck and said 'hi.' I introduced him to my wife and asked how he was doing.
As we were talking, a little old lady walked up and said that he shouldn't abuse the handicapped parking space if he wasn't handicapped.
Red shouted, 'Abuse?' Then he took his prosthetic leg off and beat it on the hood of his truck. "How goddamned disabled do i have to be!?!?!" he cried. Then he charged after her, hopping on one foot, waving his leg and swearing at the top of his lungs.
I watched him go and turned to my wife. "It's sad, really, how much that traffic accident quieted him down." And we went on our way.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You can't know who is "faking it" on disability. You can know how many cases of fraud are reported and how many people lose benefits due to having been found in violation of the rules.

Yup. Pretty much all the ones that get caught are the stupid ones.

His standard is wrong, though--I used to know a woman that would have had no problem with hopping out of a truck, but she was on disability. There was no question about whether her disability was real or not--it was a heart defect, not a matter of pain.

There are also those that have good days and bad days--enough to put them on disability but on a good day they would have no problem with the truck.

 

[NobleSavage]

I've known people who were deserving of disability, but have had a VERY hard time getting it.

 

[lpetrich]

I hope all the prospective candidates for Paul's reelection campaign kept a copy of that speech.

The states with the highest rates of disabled beneficiaries—7 percent or more—were Alabama, Arkansas, Kentucky, Maine, Mississippi, and West Virginia.

Watch out. Many of those beneficiaries might agree with him. They'd consider themselves deserving, but many of the others lazy bums and scammers.

 

[dismal]

According to the agencies overseeing SSDI less than 1%.

So he rounded up to the nearest 50%. Move on!

So, what should I make of something like this:

These golfers are considered disabled. At an age when most people still work, they get a pension and tens of thousands of dollars in annual disability payments — a sum roughly equal to the base salary of their old jobs. Even the golf is free, courtesy of New York State taxpayers.

With incentives like these, occupational disabilities at the L.I.R.R. have become a full-blown epidemic.

Virtually every career employee — as many as 97 percent in one recent year — applies for and gets disability payments soon after retirement, a computer analysis of federal records by The New York Times has found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?_r=0

Are railroads simply too dangerous to their employees to exist?

 

[Nice Squirrel]

So he rounded up to the nearest 50%. Move on!

So, what should I make of something like this:

These golfers are considered disabled. At an age when most people still work, they get a pension and tens of thousands of dollars in annual disability payments — a sum roughly equal to the base salary of their old jobs. Even the golf is free, courtesy of New York State taxpayers.

With incentives like these, occupational disabilities at the L.I.R.R. have become a full-blown epidemic.

Virtually every career employee — as many as 97 percent in one recent year — applies for and gets disability payments soon after retirement, a computer analysis of federal records by The New York Times has found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?_r=0

Are railroads simply too dangerous to their employees to exist?

Oh I see what you did there. You substituted Long Island Rail Road employees for Social Security Disability Insurance recipients.

Nice try.

 

[jonatha]

So he rounded up to the nearest 50%. Move on!

So, what should I make of something like this:

These golfers are considered disabled. At an age when most people still work, they get a pension and tens of thousands of dollars in annual disability payments — a sum roughly equal to the base salary of their old jobs. Even the golf is free, courtesy of New York State taxpayers.

With incentives like these, occupational disabilities at the L.I.R.R. have become a full-blown epidemic.

Virtually every career employee — as many as 97 percent in one recent year — applies for and gets disability payments soon after retirement, a computer analysis of federal records by The New York Times has found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?_r=0

Are railroads simply too dangerous to their employees to exist?

It is not clear to me from a quick read of the article that the disability program the LIRR employees are (apparently) scamming is the same one Rand Paul was referring to.

Inasumch as the railroads have a separate version of Social Security (RRTA rather than OASDI), I suspect it isn't.

ETA - A closer read suggests as much. So what you should make of it is that the railroad disability program is subject to much more abuse (a great deal of which may be technically legal) than SSDI.

 

[dismal]

So, what should I make of something like this:

These golfers are considered disabled. At an age when most people still work, they get a pension and tens of thousands of dollars in annual disability payments — a sum roughly equal to the base salary of their old jobs. Even the golf is free, courtesy of New York State taxpayers.

With incentives like these, occupational disabilities at the L.I.R.R. have become a full-blown epidemic.

Virtually every career employee — as many as 97 percent in one recent year — applies for and gets disability payments soon after retirement, a computer analysis of federal records by The New York Times has found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?_r=0

Are railroads simply too dangerous to their employees to exist?

It is not clear to me from a quick read of the article that the disability program the LIRR employees are (apparently) scamming is the same one Rand Paul was referring to.

Inasumch as the railroads have a separate version of Social Security (RRTA rather than OASDI), I suspect it isn't.

So, I'm not sure what you are arguing. There is some special tendency for LIRR workers to fake disabilities that does not affect the general population?

I imagine that's true since 97% of the general population does not become disabled. (Unless you subscribe to the belief that railroad work is so dangerous to employees we should shut it down, but since people here seem to love even the silliest choo-choo projects I'm sure that's not it.)

Maybe people are just frustrated it's not a big enough sample (odd given the argument "I know 3 people who are on disability and they're not faking" argument didn't meet with this criticism.)]

But anyway, let's look at some big picture data. Suppose I did some analysis on the general population's disability rate over time. Let's say I went back in time 50 years and saw what the disability rate was for people ages 25-64. Presumably with improved healthcare, better workplace conditions, etc we would have lowered that disability rate by some amount.

How much would you expect the disability rate to have gone down over time?

 

[KeepTalking]

So, what should I make of something like this:

These golfers are considered disabled. At an age when most people still work, they get a pension and tens of thousands of dollars in annual disability payments — a sum roughly equal to the base salary of their old jobs. Even the golf is free, courtesy of New York State taxpayers.

With incentives like these, occupational disabilities at the L.I.R.R. have become a full-blown epidemic.

Virtually every career employee — as many as 97 percent in one recent year — applies for and gets disability payments soon after retirement, a computer analysis of federal records by The New York Times has found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?_r=0

Are railroads simply too dangerous to their employees to exist?

It is not clear to me from a quick read of the article that the disability program the LIRR employees are (apparently) scamming is the same one Rand Paul was referring to.

Inasumch as the railroads have a separate version of Social Security (RRTA rather than OASDI), I suspect it isn't.

So, I'm not sure what you are arguing. There is some special tendency for LIRR workers to fake disabilities that does not affect the general population?

I am pretty sure that is it, given that this is exactly what your linked article says:

The answer, according to government records and dozens of interviews, stems from a combination of factors, including highly unusual L.I.R.R. contracts that allow longtime workers to retire with a pension as early as age 50, federal rules that let railroad retirees claim disability for jobs they no longer hold, and an obscure federal agency called the Railroad Retirement Board that almost never says no to a disability claim.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The answer, according to government records and dozens of interviews, stems from a combination of factors, including highly unusual L.I.R.R. contracts that allow longtime workers to retire with a pension as early as age 50, federal rules that let railroad retirees claim disability for jobs they no longer hold, and an obscure federal agency called the Railroad Retirement Board that almost never says no to a disability claim.

That's got political corruption written all over it. Of course Randy is apart from goings on like that. And of course Randy doesn't receive any public money or subsidies of any kind. What a major douchebag. And what's the total price tag for keeping this moron on the public teat?

 

[dismal]

So, what should I make of something like this:

These golfers are considered disabled. At an age when most people still work, they get a pension and tens of thousands of dollars in annual disability payments — a sum roughly equal to the base salary of their old jobs. Even the golf is free, courtesy of New York State taxpayers.

With incentives like these, occupational disabilities at the L.I.R.R. have become a full-blown epidemic.

Virtually every career employee — as many as 97 percent in one recent year — applies for and gets disability payments soon after retirement, a computer analysis of federal records by The New York Times has found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?_r=0

Are railroads simply too dangerous to their employees to exist?

It is not clear to me from a quick read of the article that the disability program the LIRR employees are (apparently) scamming is the same one Rand Paul was referring to.

Inasumch as the railroads have a separate version of Social Security (RRTA rather than OASDI), I suspect it isn't.

So, I'm not sure what you are arguing. There is some special tendency for LIRR workers to fake disabilities that does not affect the general population?

I am pretty sure that is it, given that this is exactly what your linked article says:

The answer, according to government records and dozens of interviews, stems from a combination of factors, including highly unusual L.I.R.R. contracts that allow longtime workers to retire with a pension as early as age 50, federal rules that let railroad retirees claim disability for jobs they no longer hold, and an obscure federal agency called the Railroad Retirement Board that almost never says no to a disability claim.

Your point is almost everyone (~97%) would fake a disability if there were not some crack federal agency that kept a lid on things?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

So, what should I make of something like this:

These golfers are considered disabled. At an age when most people still work, they get a pension and tens of thousands of dollars in annual disability payments — a sum roughly equal to the base salary of their old jobs. Even the golf is free, courtesy of New York State taxpayers.

With incentives like these, occupational disabilities at the L.I.R.R. have become a full-blown epidemic.

Virtually every career employee — as many as 97 percent in one recent year — applies for and gets disability payments soon after retirement, a computer analysis of federal records by The New York Times has found.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/21/nyregion/21lirr.html?_r=0

Are railroads simply too dangerous to their employees to exist?

It is not clear to me from a quick read of the article that the disability program the LIRR employees are (apparently) scamming is the same one Rand Paul was referring to.

Inasumch as the railroads have a separate version of Social Security (RRTA rather than OASDI), I suspect it isn't.

So, I'm not sure what you are arguing. There is some special tendency for LIRR workers to fake disabilities that does not affect the general population?

I am pretty sure that is it, given that this is exactly what your linked article says:

The answer, according to government records and dozens of interviews, stems from a combination of factors, including highly unusual L.I.R.R. contracts that allow longtime workers to retire with a pension as early as age 50, federal rules that let railroad retirees claim disability for jobs they no longer hold, and an obscure federal agency called the Railroad Retirement Board that almost never says no to a disability claim.

From what I am seeing, the retired railroad workers are not faking disability. They are claiming disability under a set of rules that allow them to do so legally.

 

[SimpleDon]

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/14/politics/rand-paul-disability/index.html

Speaking at a New Hampshire diner about government waste, the Kentucky Republican said "there's always somebody who's deserving" of entitlement programs, "But everybody in this room knows somebody who's gaming the system."

"What I tell people is, if you look like me and you hop out of your truck, you shouldn't be getting a disability check. Over half of the people on disability are either anxious or their back hurts -- join the club," he said, drawing a few laughs from the audience. "Who doesn't get a little anxious for work everyday and their back hurts? Everybody over 40 has back pain."

All the people I know on disability aren't faking it, or if they are, they sure are doing a good job of being immobile and using those wheelchairs scamming the government for $1k per month.

If he knows people who are scamming the government out of 1 to 2 thousand dollars per month he should turn them in to law enforcement. They pay a reward for turning in people who are frauds.

The proof that is most often cited for the high rate of fraud in the Social Security Disability program is the explosion of people who are in the program. But the increases in the program are explained by demographics, the increase in the population and the aging of the population.

In my personal experience with both, I believe that there is a much higher rate of fraud in the privately managed Workman's Compensation Insurance than in Social Security Disability. The Workman's Comp carriers make more profits by rolling the fraud into their rates and charging higher premiums than if they actively chased down the frauds. You won't read this in their annual reports but more than one of my lawyers defending me in WC cases have told me this.