*rant* Fundamentalism is stupid

[bilby]

Atheist are not immune to being judgemental to other people who don't take to the 'ideals' put out there, by atheists.

What 'ideals' are a part of atheism?

What exactly could a person do that would lead to their being unfairly judged by a fundamentalist atheist? And what consequences would such a judgement inspire?

A fundamentalist theist might declare someone to be a heretic, and set him on fire; Or might declare someone to be a witch, and hang him; Or might declare someone to be possessed by demons, and restrain and physically attack him.

All of these things (and many more) have happened, many, many times, throughout history, due to fundamentalist religious beliefs. What similar things have happened due to fundamentalism on the part of atheists?

 

[southernhybrid]

All religion is based on mythology and those who have liberal interpretations of the myths they hold dear are rarely a problem to others. The main problem with fundamentalists is that they judge those who don't share their beliefs. While it's not common, fundamentalists sometimes become dangerous and many push for a theocratic form of government.

Fundamentalism or extremism, is a trait among the human race, as a whole. Atheist are not immune to being judgemental to other people who don't take to the 'ideals' put out there, by atheists.

We can't take ALL the credit, let's share.

That seems to be what's happening to some extent in the US these days. Fundamentalist Christians also believe that belief is more important than good works and if they "sin", all they have to do is ask forgiveness and all is well again.

I don't doubt there would be someone out there like this, however...
...to keep on sinning; thinking that continuously, "you would always be forgiven", and "all will be well again, when repeating the same sins", doesn't sound biblically correct imo.

Fundamentalists who aren't a threat are still annoying, like the one who wanted to share her testimony with me a few weeks ago because she was worried about what would become of me in the afterlife. I know what that means. She thinks that those who don't believe the nonsense that she believes are going to spend eternity being tortured by her all loving god. Yeah. That's pretty stupid, judgmental and nasty. They just don't see it that way.

Fair enough pov, you are entitled to make those judgements.

I agree with you that there are some obnoxious atheists, but most of the ones I know personally don't really care what others believe as long as they don't use those beliefs to judge others or try to force government to make decisions based on their religious beliefs. The US was supposed to be a secular nation that recognized the rights of the religious to practice their religion as long as it didn't interfere with the rights of others. If you follow the news as much as I do, it becomes obvious that there is a movement among conservative Christians to push us toward a theocratic nation. SCOTUS has obviously based some of its decisions on the personal religious beliefs of some of the justices. That's the danger I'm referring to.

When I was a child in the 50s, my fundamentalist parents, especially my mother, were relieved when prayer was taken out of the schools because most of my teachers were Catholic and she felt that public schools shouldn't be a place where religion was taught or were prayer was required. During most of my years in elementary school, the day was started with a prayer and listening to the teacher read a passage from the Bible. That was in the Northeast, so it wasn't just the South that did such things. These days, a lot of conservative Christians want to bring prayer back to the public schools. They even blame the rise in crime on removing prayer from the public schools. I wonder how these parents would feel if a Muslim teacher were the one who said a prayer based on her religion.

Religion doesn't belong in the public square. We aren't a Christian nation, despite those who claim that we are. Many, if not most of the founders were non believers or deists at best. They respected the right to practice religion and they respected the rights of the non religious not to practice religion. Despite all of the bad things done by the founders of the US, that was a positive thing. I'm only mentioning these things because I had the impression that you don't seem to realize what's currently going on in the country when it comes to conservative Christians pushing religion into government.

The person who I said was annoying probably meant well, but I found her attempt to "save" me a bit annoying since it's such a narrow minded view point and I don't think it's right to push one's religious beliefs on others. I'm sure she was told to witness to the unsaved, but I'm sure that everyone in the US has already heard the evangelical message by this time, so why keep bothering people about it? I've never tried to convert anyone to atheism and my best Christian friends respect my right to be an atheist. They don't judge me for it, and I don't judge them for having Christian beliefs. We see people for their good qualities not for their beliefs. I've never known a fundamentalist Christian who was able to do that very well. I was raised in such an atmosphere and while I've overcome the emotional damage of my childhood due to the religious indoctrination I received, it still bothers me at times to think of what I was told as a child. I've forgiven my parents as they were victims of emotional indoctrination. Sorry for getting so personal. I'm just trying to explain the negative impact of fundamentalism on others.

One more thing. ( sorry ) The fundamentalist/evangelicals I've known always believe that even the worst person in the world can ask for forgiveness just before death and they will automatically be saved from the eternal torture of hell. Meanwhile, the most loving, caring, selfless person will be sent to hell if they don't hold the same beliefs as the fundamentalist. What kind of god would be so egotistical that all he cares about is whether or not someone is able to believe the things in the Bible, regardless if they make sense? If you don't believe those things, good for you.

 

[Tigers!]

Atheist are not immune to being judgemental to other people who don't take to the 'ideals' put out there, by atheists.

What 'ideals' are a part of atheism?

What exactly could a person do that would lead to their being unfairly judged by a fundamentalist atheist? And what consequences would such a judgement inspire?

Atheists tend to be very disparaging towards those who have religious beliefs or practices. The consequence could be disdain, anger, hatred towards believers.

A fundamentalist theist might declare someone to be a heretic, and set him on fire; Or might declare someone to be a witch, and hang him; Or might declare someone to be possessed by demons, and restrain and physically attack him.

All of these things (and many more) have happened, many, many times, throughout history, due to fundamentalist religious beliefs. What similar things have happened due to fundamentalism on the part of atheists?

Many believers (of varying beliefs) have died at the hands of atheists - communism being the most obvious example. (ducks and runs for the foxhole)

 

[bilby]

Being disparaging towards someone who is loudly proclaiming their belief in something that isn't demonstrated, is not unreasonable. Do you respond to people who think that the Earth is flat with respect, and avoid any suggestion that they might be wrong, for fear of offending them? If so, do you genuinely think that's an appropriate way to respond to an obviously false belief?

Many believers in faiths other than communism have suffered at the hands of devout communists. Indeed, faith in a greater meaning to life than that we make for ourselves appears to be the primary cause of extreme violence, whether that meaning is religious, political, or patriotic. Communism is just another belief system; It's atheistic, but it's not atheism.

All communists are (supposedly) atheists, but not all atheists are in any way communists. In the same vein, all christians are religious, but not all religious people are christians. To suggest that atheists are a problem, because of fundamentalist communism is therefore exactly as valid as suggesting that christians are a problem, because of fundamentalist islam.

 

[southernhybrid]

Atheist are not immune to being judgemental to other people who don't take to the 'ideals' put out there, by atheists.

What 'ideals' are a part of atheism?

What exactly could a person do that would lead to their being unfairly judged by a fundamentalist atheist? And what consequences would such a judgement inspire?

Atheists tend to be very disparaging towards those who have religious beliefs or practices. The consequence could be disdain, anger, hatred towards believers.

A fundamentalist theist might declare someone to be a heretic, and set him on fire; Or might declare someone to be a witch, and hang him; Or might declare someone to be possessed by demons, and restrain and physically attack him.

All of these things (and many more) have happened, many, many times, throughout history, due to fundamentalist religious beliefs. What similar things have happened due to fundamentalism on the part of atheists?

Many believers (of varying beliefs) have died at the hands of atheists - communism being the most obvious example. (ducks and runs for the foxhole)

Yes. There have been all sorts of horrific things done by both the religious and the non religious, including the things that I think you are referring to. Thankfully, that's not what's going on currently. I've already mentioned that some atheists tend to be obnoxious, but I don' think that's common, at least not here in the Bible Belt. Some of us godless heathens get together monthly and sometimes we do vent about religion, but most of the time we talk about politics or family matters or other things. It's just nice to escape the Bible Belt mentality once in awhile with other freethinkers. I really don't think that Secular Humanists would do what some Communists did in the last century. Do you?

Most of the women I interact with at our senior center are Black Christians and I love their culture, and their friendliness. I don't even mind when they get a little outwardly religious as long as they don't push it on me. The woman who I found annoying is White and judgmental. It takes all kinds. I'm sure she meant well, but I still found her assumptions about me in an afterlife offensive.

 

[Tigers!]

Atheist are not immune to being judgemental to other people who don't take to the 'ideals' put out there, by atheists.

What 'ideals' are a part of atheism?

What exactly could a person do that would lead to their being unfairly judged by a fundamentalist atheist? And what consequences would such a judgement inspire?

Atheists tend to be very disparaging towards those who have religious beliefs or practices. The consequence could be disdain, anger, hatred towards believers.

A fundamentalist theist might declare someone to be a heretic, and set him on fire; Or might declare someone to be a witch, and hang him; Or might declare someone to be possessed by demons, and restrain and physically attack him.

All of these things (and many more) have happened, many, many times, throughout history, due to fundamentalist religious beliefs. What similar things have happened due to fundamentalism on the part of atheists?

Many believers (of varying beliefs) have died at the hands of atheists - communism being the most obvious example. (ducks and runs for the foxhole)

Yes. There have been all sorts of horrific things done by both the religious and the non religious, including the things that I think you are referring to. Thankfully, that's not what's going on currently. I've already mentioned that some atheists tend to be obnoxious, but I don' think that's common, at least not here in the Bible Belt.

We both have met the obnoxious religious and non-religious. Being obnoxious (don't know the adverb for obnoxious) is not dependent upon age, colours, education, faith or lack there of. Just being human is enough for some.

Some of us godless heathens get together monthly and sometimes we do vent about religion, but most of the time we talk about politics or family matters or other things. It's just nice to escape the Bible Belt mentality once in awhile with other freethinkers. I really don't think that Secular Humanists would do what some Communists did in the last century. Do you?

I would not not expect Secular Humanists to do what some Communists have done. That being said, some people when given the chance to lord it over others and have power and control will grab it with both hands. It is not always easy to tell beforehand who will behave like that. It seems to be an all too common human trait.

Most of the women I interact with at our senior center are Black Christians and I love their culture, and their friendliness. I don't even mind when they get a little outwardly religious as long as they don't push it on me. The woman who I found annoying is White and judgmental. It takes all kinds. I'm sure she meant well, but I still found her assumptions about me in an afterlife offensive.

 

[Tigers!]

Being disparaging towards someone who is loudly proclaiming their belief in something that isn't demonstrated, is not unreasonable. Do you respond to people who think that the Earth is flat with respect, and avoid any suggestion that they might be wrong, for fear of offending them? If so, do you genuinely think that's an appropriate way to respond to an obviously false belief?

I try to separate the person from the belief. It is possible to have respect for the person but not for the belief (in your example flat earthism). I have met a few flat earthers in my time and will politely tell them that they need a round the world trip.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Many believers (of varying beliefs) have died at the hands of atheists - communism being the most obvious example. (ducks and runs for the foxhole)

That would obviously imply that religion is a failure. If religion is the answer, the fix for problems, how it that it fails? The answer is that it is an emotional fix, something psychological, at least for some folks. Objectively it accomplishes nothing in terms of making the planet a better, healthier place to live. Indeed it does the opposite by focusing on an afterlife in most cases. It provides comfort by substituting lies for honesty. I will agree that helps some folks get through. But like the bumper sticker said, "Instead of being born again, just grow up the first time."

One of my sisters insists I'm being disloyal to my parents by not practicing their religion. My answer has always been that if they had my genes and experiences they would be exactly like me. And if I had their genes and experiences I would be them. It's a silly argument she makes, one completely based on emotions.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I try to separate the person from the belief

Remember what Yoda said, "There is no try. There is do or not do."

 

[Tigers!]

Many believers (of varying beliefs) have died at the hands of atheists - communism being the most obvious example. (ducks and runs for the foxhole)

That would obviously imply that religion is a failure.

By that reasoning atheism is a failure too.

If religion is the answer, the fix for problems, how it that it fails? The answer is that it is an emotional fix, something psychological, at least for some folks. Objectively it accomplishes nothing in terms of making the planet a better, healthier place to live. Indeed it does the opposite by focusing on an afterlife in most cases. It provides comfort by substituting lies for honesty. I will agree that helps some folks get through. But like the bumper sticker said, "Instead of being born again, just grow up the first time."

If you do not wish to apply religion (ignore which religion at the moment) then you can hardly complain that it does not work.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

By that reasoning atheism is a failure too.

Not collecting stamps constitutes failure? That's news to me.

 

[lostone]

Many believers (of varying beliefs) have died at the hands of atheists - communism being the most obvious example. (ducks and runs for the foxhole)

That would obviously imply that religion is a failure. If religion is the answer, the fix for problems, how it that it fails? The answer is that it is an emotional fix, something psychological, at least for some folks. Objectively it accomplishes nothing in terms of making the planet a better, healthier place to live. Indeed it does the opposite by focusing on an afterlife in most cases. It provides comfort by substituting lies for honesty. I will agree that helps some folks get through. But like the bumper sticker said, "Instead of being born again, just grow up the first time."

One of my sisters insists I'm being disloyal to my parents by not practicing their religion. My answer has always been that if they had my genes and experiences they would be exactly like me. And if I had their genes and experiences I would be them. It's a silly argument she makes, one completely based on emotions.

Plenty of atheists have died by the hands of those who are/were religious

Many believers (of varying beliefs) have died at the hands of atheists - communism being the most obvious example. (ducks and runs for the foxhole)

That would obviously imply that religion is a failure.

By that reasoning atheism is a failure too.

If religion is the answer, the fix for problems, how it that it fails? The answer is that it is an emotional fix, something psychological, at least for some folks. Objectively it accomplishes nothing in terms of making the planet a better, healthier place to live. Indeed it does the opposite by focusing on an afterlife in most cases. It provides comfort by substituting lies for honesty. I will agree that helps some folks get through. But like the bumper sticker said, "Instead of being born again, just grow up the first time."

If you do not wish to apply religion (ignore which religion at the moment) then you can hardly complain that it does not

Plenty of atheists have also died at the hands of Christians and Muslims.

 

[Learner]

Atheist are not immune to being judgemental to other people who don't take to the 'ideals' put out there, by atheists.

What 'ideals' are a part of atheism?

What exactly could a person do that would lead to their being unfairly judged by a fundamentalist atheist? And what consequences would such a judgement inspire?

A fundamentalist theist might declare someone to be a heretic, and set him on fire; Or might declare someone to be a witch, and hang him; Or might declare someone to be possessed by demons, and restrain and physically attack him.

All of these things (and many more) have happened, many, many times, throughout history, due to fundamentalist religious beliefs. What similar things have happened due to fundamentalism on the part of atheists?

You'll have to pardon me, I 'took the liberty' to borrow Tigers post, #23 quoted below, which addresses the above:

Atheist are not immune to being judgemental to other people who don't take to the 'ideals' put out there, by atheists.

What 'ideals' are a part of atheism?

What exactly could a person do that would lead to their being unfairly judged by a fundamentalist atheist? And what consequences would such a judgement inspire?

Atheists tend to be very disparaging towards those who have religious beliefs or practices. The consequence could be disdain, anger, hatred towards believers.

A fundamentalist theist might declare someone to be a heretic, and set him on fire; Or might declare someone to be a witch, and hang him; Or might declare someone to be possessed by demons, and restrain and physically attack him.

All of these things (and many more) have happened, many, many times, throughout history, due to fundamentalist religious beliefs. What similar things have happened due to fundamentalism on the part of atheists?

Many believers (of varying beliefs) have died at the hands of atheists - communism being the most obvious example. (ducks and runs for the foxhole)

Cheers Tigers!

.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Plenty of atheists have also died at the hands of Christians and Muslims.

Plenty of christians and muslims have died at the hands of christians and muslims. And our prisons are not filled with atheists.

 

[Learner]

Plenty of atheists have also died at the hands of Christians and Muslims.

Plenty of christians and muslims have died at the hands of christians and muslims. And our prisons are not filled with atheists.

I think you can expand this a little further, reaching the full spectrum of inclusiveness, which IOW, all you're really saying is.... humans kill humans.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I think you can expand this a little further, reaching the full spectrum of inclusiveness, which IOW, all you're really saying is.... humans kill humans.

And religious humans are no exception.

 

[Tigers!]

Plenty of atheists have also died at the hands of Christians and Muslims.

Plenty of christians and muslims have died at the hands of christians and muslims. And our prisons are not filled with atheists.

Last time I looked prisons are filled with criminals.

 

[Tigers!]

I think you can expand this a little further, reaching the full spectrum of inclusiveness, which IOW, all you're really saying is.... humans kill humans.

And religious humans are no exception.

I do not think that Learner and I have ever argued to the contrary.

 

[Rhea]

Many believers (of varying beliefs) have died at the hands of atheists - communism being the most obvious example. (ducks and runs for the foxhole)

They died at the hands of communists (and Authoritarian communists, specifically.). They did not die because of the tenets of atheism. Atheism made no statement about it. It was political, not spiritual.

 

[southernhybrid]

Many believers (of varying beliefs) have died at the hands of atheists - communism being the most obvious example. (ducks and runs for the foxhole)

They died at the hands of communists (and Authoritarian communists, specifically.). They did not die because of the tenets of atheism. Atheism made no statement about it. It was political, not spiritual.

That is true, plus I'd like to correct whoever it was that said that all communists are atheists. There are Christians who embrace communist ideology, at least in contemporary times. They may not have been the ones involved with the Stalinist regime, but it's not only atheists who embrace communism. Pure communism is an overly idealistic ideology, that has always been corrupted when it was tried.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_communism

Christian communism is a theological view that the teachings of Jesus compel Christians to support religious communism. Although there is no universal agreement on the exact dates when communistic ideas and practices in Christianity began, many Christian communists argue that evidence from the Bible suggests that the first Christians, including the Apostles in the New Testament, established their own small communist society in the years following Jesus' death and resurrection.[1] Many advocates of Christian communism and other communists, including Karl Kautsky, argue that it was taught by Jesus and practised by the apostles themselves.[2] This is generally confirmed by historians.[3]

There are those who view that the early Christian Church, such as that one described in the Acts of the Apostles, was an early form of communism and religious socialism. The view is that communism was just Christianity in practice and Jesus was the first communist.[4] This link was highlighted in one of Karl Marx's early writings, which stated that "[a]s Christ is the intermediary unto whom man unburdens all his divinity, all his religious bonds, so the state is the mediator unto which he transfers all his Godlessness, all his human liberty."[4]

I'm just adding this to let those who don't realize that there are Christians who also embrace communism. If one is honest, it does appear as if Jesus was a socialist or communist, if you take the words of the Gospel seriously. It doesn't matter that those words didn't exist during his time. The ideology of the gospel is very similar to that of socialism or communism. I"m not trying to derail this thread. I just wanted to correct something said that isn't true.