Rape victim ordered to pay her abuser child support

[TomC]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

Damn you're good at

Tom

 

[laughing dog]

You assume she pretended to be of age.

Can we agree that Abelseth was in a public place, doing something with a minimum age requirement of 21?
Tom

I am just pointing out that you are making as many assumptions and judgments as the people who you are calling out.

Abseleth may or may not have lied or misrepresented her age - we don't know what she did. Yet you assume she must have misrepresented her age to people. She could have been served without any misrepresentation.

I don't know if a bar that served food (Bar and Grill) in LA required someone to be 21 in order to be there. Some states permit those under the legal age to be served alcohol to be present if the establishment serves food or meets some minimum threshold of food service.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Agreed. And under-aged drinking is so uncommon, it is utterly inconceivable to consider anyone being in a place where alcohol is sold being under the ages of 21

So.
You can admit that she lied about her age to someone.

With that wording, it sounds like a presumption you are making.

She couldn't have been drinking there without doing so.

Girls have an ability of getting guys to just buy them drinks. She possibly wouldn't have needed to make any claim.

Of all of the "lack of details" you were hanging your hat on, there is no evidence that she "lied about her age", unless you presume that her mere presence is an act of communication. Your premise here is that the guy couldn't possibly think she was under 18, because she was drinking alcohol in a bar. That is silly.

 

[Gospel]

Yeah, I used to buy drinks for the ladies all the time. I see a table of ladies having a good time and buy them a round. Not once do I go over to the table (sometimes they come to thank me), I just get the drinks and move on knowing they're enjoying their time together minus using their purse for that round. It's no big deal. But when taking women to my place for a late night swing (this is before I got married) depending on whether her age was clearly obvious (cougar with gray hair) I'd asked to see her ID before we left. The women I asked were usually flattered and laughed (its in the delivery). But yeah, maybe its from being black and knowing the police would snatch me up for the most bullshit of charges that I was extra cautious.

This is not to confirm or debunk opinions on the 30 year old's behavior that day. Just sayin.

 

[ZiprHead]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

Did you see how short the skirt was on those drinks?

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Agreed. And under-aged drinking is so uncommon, it is utterly inconceivable to consider anyone being in a place where alcohol is sold being under the ages of 21

So.
You can admit that she lied about her age to someone.

With that wording, it sounds like a presumption you are making.

Indeed, she need not lie to anyone at all.

She couldn't have been drinking there without doing so.

Girls have an ability of getting guys to just buy them drinks.

Well, let's say even more generically, anyone could have bought her a drink(s), including people she was with who were older.

In my experience of underage drinking, whenever as a young boy I was given alcohol, several feet away there were also girls getting alcohol and older men who were supplying it usually. Those guys most often had ulterior motives of getting teen girls drunk. But there were also occasions of older females supplying alcohol, just because they felt the restricted age limit was unfair and they were good friends with a younger female.

She possibly wouldn't have needed to make any claim.

Indeed. She was with some girlfriends. One girlfriend of age could have gotten the drinks for the table. Everyone in the bar could have been guilty of looking the other way, not have noticed, and/or never communicated with her--with the definite exception of John Barnes who observed a teen girl drunk and offered her a ride home. This was after her friend who was the driver had left her and one of the other girlfriends there.

Of all of the "lack of details" you were hanging your hat on, there is no evidence that she "lied about her age", unless you presume that her mere presence is an act of communication. Your premise here is that the guy couldn't possibly think she was under 18, because she was drinking alcohol in a bar. That is silly.

Right, everyone is aware that there are people who drink who are underage. So a young person drinking is not evidence that they are legally drinking. Moreover, stating that someone who is drunk has to be at least 18 is an incoherent inference. It reads more like a plot device, than a logical construction.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You assume she pretended to be of age.

Can we agree that Abelseth was in a public place, doing something with a minimum age requirement of 21?
Tom

I am just pointing out that you are making as many assumptions and judgments as the people who you are calling out.

Abseleth may or may not have lied or misrepresented her age - we don't know what she did. Yet you assume she must have misrepresented her age to people. She could have been served without any misrepresentation.

I don't know if a bar that served food (Bar and Grill) in LA required someone to be 21 in order to be there. Some states permit those under the legal age to be served alcohol to be present if the establishment serves food or meets some minimum threshold of food service.

I believe that in general the rule is 50% food sales makes it not an age-restricted establishment. However, the presence of someone in a place that isn't age restricted doesn't say anything about their age and thus doesn't give a reasonable belief they're of legal age.

 

[laughing dog]

By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age.

No experienced bartender would say such a thing.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Of all of the "lack of details" you were hanging your hat on, there is no evidence that she "lied about her age", unless you presume that her mere presence is an act of communication. Your premise here is that the guy couldn't possibly think she was under 18, because she was drinking alcohol in a bar. That is silly.

I do think being in an age-restricted place is communicating that you are of an age to have entered the place. Whether the place she was at was age restricted or not I have not evidence of one way or the other.

 

[Toni]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

The whole ‘but she was in a bar’ canard is used as an excuse almost on par with’ it did you see how short her skirt was’ and ‘but she wasn’t even a virgin ‘

I understand that middle aged and older men don’t like the idea of underage girls being off limits except perhaps their own daughter.

I understand that a lot of men are much more concerned about having young sex partners available on demand and if drunk, so much the better. Youth and inexperience are often not sufficient to cover up for his lack of skill as a sex partner, hence the additional attraction of inebriation. She likely won’t be able to fight you off or remember exactly what happened. Or be believed. So a win, all around. Fir him.

Here’s something you might not realize: almost all 16 year old girls in the US regard 30 year old men as…middle aged. And not in the good way.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Of all of the "lack of details" you were hanging your hat on, there is no evidence that she "lied about her age", unless you presume that her mere presence is an act of communication. Your premise here is that the guy couldn't possibly think she was under 18, because she was drinking alcohol in a bar. That is silly.

I do think being in an age-restricted place is communicating that you are of an age to have entered the place. Whether the place she was at was age restricted or not I have not evidence of one way or the other.

Wasn't this at a Bar and Grille, not a bar?

Also... BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA!!! I'm pretty certain the bars around where I went to college sold alcohol to all comers. They never asked to see if someone was a Senior.

 

[Gospel]

Drivers ID (if you gave me a state ID you're already getting the nope) was hard to fake (at least back when I was a player). I can't imagine that it has gotten any easier. If there was any doubt about the ID I was holding in my hand I was out. There are too many free spirited women out there to take the chance. Plus I had my black book to call up a cougar or two when going through withdrawals the likes of a drug addiction. Yeah, I had a problem. I'm better now... Maybe

Edit: 1990's for context

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Suppose on the highway, the speed limit is 55 mph. If I am on the highway driving, I am not communicating that I am driving 55 or less. Enough people drive more than 55 so that it is general knowledge that such inference is bullshit. Additionally, a person can tell when someone is driving way, way more than the limit from simple eyesight.

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

 

[Toni]

Of all of the "lack of details" you were hanging your hat on, there is no evidence that she "lied about her age", unless you presume that her mere presence is an act of communication. Your premise here is that the guy couldn't possibly think she was under 18, because she was drinking alcohol in a bar. That is silly.

I do think being in an age-restricted place is communicating that you are of an age to have entered the place. Whether the place she was at was age restricted or not I have not evidence of one way or the other.

It’s communicating that you expect to be served alcohol. Whether or not that expectation is reasonable is a different question.

 

[ZiprHead]

Of all of the "lack of details" you were hanging your hat on, there is no evidence that she "lied about her age", unless you presume that her mere presence is an act of communication. Your premise here is that the guy couldn't possibly think she was under 18, because she was drinking alcohol in a bar. That is silly.

I do think being in an age-restricted place is communicating that you are of an age to have entered the place. Whether the place she was at was age restricted or not I have not evidence of one way or the other.

You mean like Applebee's?

 

[Gospel]

Suppose on the highway, the speed limit is 55 mph. If I am on the highway driving, I am not communicating that I am driving 55 or less. Enough people drive more than 55 so that it is general knowledge that such inference is bullshit. Additionally, a person can tell when someone is driving way, way more than the limit from simple eyesight.

The restaurant bar situation is hardly different. Many teens engage in underage drinking. This is a known thing. A teen who is underage drinking is not necessarily communicating to anyone that they are acting legally and in fact it is well-known that younger people engage in risky behaviors more often, which includes illegal behaviors. It is probably less well known, but teens tend to binge drink more than the general population. This means if you observe someone who is drunk and very young looking, it ought to cross your mind that they could be underage. I seriously doubt anyway that anyone underage and completely drunk is holding together any kind of semblance of maturity.

Yeah, they stood out like Jupiter's great red spot. I'd also like to add that any lack of maturity even from a 45-year-old (yes they are out there) was a reason for my nope napkin to get pulled out.

 

[Emily Lake]

My best guess is that she's a competent liar. She was drinking in an establishment with a minimum age of 21. Barnes believed she was at least 18.

What's hard to understand about that?
Tom

It's not hard to understand, Tom. Not at all. It's fairly straightforward victim blaming, with a dash of old-school misogyny tossed. I understand it quite well. I'm disappointed that it's your view, but I definitely understand it.

 

[Emily Lake]

Abelseth was drinking in an establishment with a minimum age of 21 to drink.

I don't recall this having been reported, it appears to have been assumed on your part. She admitted to drinking, so the most we know is that she was in an establishment that served alcohol. It could have been almost any restaurant at all. You don't even know that she is the one who ordered the alcohol - it could have been a friend who ordered for her. Illegal, sure. She shouldn't have been drinking. But you've extrapolated from there with no evidence whatsoever, and have painter her in the worst possible light in order to excuse the behavior of A FULLY GROWN ADULT MAN WHO FUCKED A TEENAGER.

Barnes assumed she was at least 18.

You are just dead-set determined to make all kinds of assumptions in order to excuse his behavior.

IT IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ADULT TO NOT FUCK MINORS

It is NOT the responsibility of the minor to not get herself fucked by an adult. It's a twisted kind of need to make the woman into the bad guy you've got going on here.

 

[Emily Lake]

It appears in this thread that TomC believes if you engage in underage drinking, it is your fault of an actual adult rapes you and impregnates you.

I don't think that's what he's saying. Rather, he appears to be saying that she was able to convince a bartender that she was 21. By being in the bar he had a reasonable reason to think she was of legal age. This is rather like my position on it--I do not agree with statutory rape being a strict liability offense. I expect the older person to make a reasonable effort to confirm the age of someone who looks young, but I do not believe falling for fake ID should be enough to convict over an act that had no criminal intent.

You know, in principle I'm willing to say 'not strict liability' is reasonable. But taking a step back... when the age difference is that large, I have very little tolerance for any claim on the part of the 30 year old that they had no idea the 16 year old was so young. FFS, a 30 year old picking up a 21 year old makes my hackles rise, regardless of the sexes of the participants.