Rationalizing faith.

[Angry Floof]

Also maybe drop the toxic and inhumane elements like authority worship, misogyny, tribalism, moral superiority, condemnation of outgroups? And maybe institute elements that actually do mitigate the stupider and meaner side of human nature rather than reinforcing it? Like maybe valuing critical thinking, empathy, inclusiveness, acceptance of ambivalence, recognizing that one's tribe is all of humanity without exception?

If only... But then if religions did this, they would disappear, and social dominance viruses like Christianity are way too virulent to become humane influences on their own. It's going to take conscious will to weaken it and immunize humanity.

Yes, it would be terrible if someone were to become obsessed with a "tribalism" and a skewed perception of their own moral superiority, and blanket condemnation of outgroups. Just terrible.

That's smarmy and unhealthy.

It's also easy and lazy. I could type out millions of words to explain my views and why I hold them (and I have, actually), but the reactive religious believers and apologists will always reduce it all down to what they want to believe, which is either the two dimensional "atheists are [insert sinful/scary trait here]" or "No, YOU" projection.

But if religious belief were assumed through rational thought, the slower process of conscious reasoning, there would not only be no religious belief, there would be the capacity to recognize when others have not assumed their views through subconscious, reflexive processes.

So awfully rude of me to point this out. Anyway, if I really did think the way religious believers accuse me of thinking, I'd still be a Christian and possibly even a Republican.

 

[Politesse]

That's smarmy and unhealthy.

It's also easy and lazy. I could type out millions of words to explain my views and why I hold them (and I have, actually), but the reactive religious believers and apologists will always reduce it all down to what they want to believe, which is either the two dimensional "atheists are [insert sinful/scary trait here]" or "No, YOU" projection.

But if religious belief were assumed through rational thought, the slower process of conscious reasoning, there would not only be no religious belief, there would be the capacity to recognize when others have not assumed their views through subconscious, reflexive processes.

So awfully rude of me to point this out. Anyway, if I really did think the way religious believers accuse me of thinking, I'd still be a Christian and possibly even a Republican.

Let us be clear. I am not criticizing "atheists". I am criticizing you. Your supposedly superior "label" means nothing to me, or to any thinking person. Your words and conduct are your own choices.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

That's smarmy and unhealthy.

I hope you are referring to the practice of filling a post with the worst invective and stereotyping filth you can think of to describe anyone who believes differently than you, then dubiously claiming the moral high ground.

Not to a polite eyeroll about the irony involved.

I didn't say that you were smarmy and unhealthy.

 

[southernhybrid]

That's smarmy and unhealthy.

It's also easy and lazy. I could type out millions of words to explain my views and why I hold them (and I have, actually), but the reactive religious believers and apologists will always reduce it all down to what they want to believe, which is either the two dimensional "atheists are [insert sinful/scary trait here]" or "No, YOU" projection.

But if religious belief were assumed through rational thought, the slower process of conscious reasoning, there would not only be no religious belief, there would be the capacity to recognize when others have not assumed their views through subconscious, reflexive processes.

So awfully rude of me to point this out. Anyway, if I really did think the way religious believers accuse me of thinking, I'd still be a Christian and possibly even a Republican.

Let us be clear. I am not criticizing "atheists". I am criticizing you. Your supposedly superior "label" means nothing to me, or to any thinking person. Your words and conduct are your own choices.

I haven't read this entire thread, but have you considered that some of us atheists have been injured either from our religious upbringing or by the way we are treated when we are open about our atheism.

I'm one of the lucky ones who was able to walk away from evangelical Christianity with very little damage. But, I have been abused by self righteous coworkers in the distant past, who condemned me, and caused division in the work place, which eventually made me ask for a transfer to another office, with a much longer commute from home. Luckily, the Christians in that office were kind, and appreciative of my work, as I was a very fast efficient worker, always ready to help my peers. I'm long over the way I've been treated, but I'm a fiesty first born who had a very close relationship with my evangelical mother, who despite her crazy beliefs, finally came to the conclusion that her first born daughter wasn't going to hell. I always saw my mother as a victim of the emotional indoctrination that she received when I was about 3 years old.

Atheists are one of the most despised, misunderstood minorities in the US. We are expected to remain in the closet, although more of us are coming out and we are growing in numbers. Certainly, you of all people can understand what it's like feeling hesitant to reveal something about yourself that might be judged and condemned by some conservative Christians?

We all react to the influences that made us who we are. I value AF's contributions. I know she gets angry sometimes. She put that right in her name as a warning. She is also a decent compassionate person with a wonderful sense of humor. I know she doesn't need me to defend her, but I can't help myself.

I know I'm being a bitch by saying this, but good liberal Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, not to judge.....You know.....all those idealistic nice Jesus things that most Christians seem to ignore these days.

Btw, I like you both. I don't care that you feel the need to have some religion in your life. Mythology is interesting and meaningful to some people. I don't care that AF needs to tell you how she feels about Christian beliefs. As for me, I have learned to tolerate Christianity, for the most part, but if I'm really honest, I have no idea how any intelligent person can take any religious mythology as fact.

Yes. Plenty of smart folks do believe in gods and myths. Just the other day, a very intelligent, charming PA told me that it was amazing how "The Lord" had placed my neighbor and I next door to each other. Really? I wanted to say, do you really believe that shit? Do you honestly believe that a god decided to put two retired nurses next door to each other?

Instead, I was silent, but mildly disappointed that a medical professional still assumes that all of her patients believe in the Lord! That might sound very trivial to you, but when it constantly surrounds you on a daily basis, sometimes you just want to be honest and say to the other person, "What the fuck did you just say"? Irl, we usually hold our tongues. Here, is one of the few places where we can vent or let it out a bit.

I sure can rant if I try.

 

[Politesse]

Let us be clear. I am not criticizing "atheists". I am criticizing you. Your supposedly superior "label" means nothing to me, or to any thinking person. Your words and conduct are your own choices.

I haven't read this entire thread, but have you considered that some of us atheists have been injured either from our religious upbringing or by the way we are treated when we are open about our atheism.

I'm one of the lucky ones who was able to walk away from evangelical Christianity with very little damage. But, I have been abused by self righteous coworkers in the distant past, who condemned me, and caused division in the work place, which eventually made me ask for a transfer to another office, with a much longer commute from home. Luckily, the Christians in that office were kind, and appreciative of my work, as I was a very fast efficient worker, always ready to help my peers. I'm long over the way I've been treated, but I'm a fiesty first born who had a very close relationship with my evangelical mother, who despite her crazy beliefs, finally came to the conclusion that her first born daughter wasn't going to hell. I always saw my mother as a victim of the emotional indoctrination that she received when I was about 3 years old.

Atheists are one of the most despised, misunderstood minorities in the US. We are expected to remain in the closet, although more of us are coming out and we are growing in numbers. Certainly, you of all people can understand what it's like feeling hesitant to reveal something about yourself that might be judged and condemned by some conservative Christians?

We all react to the influences that made us who we are. I value AF's contributions. I know she gets angry sometimes. She put that right in her name as a warning. She is also a decent compassionate person with a wonderful sense of humor. I know she doesn't need me to defend her, but I can't help myself.

I know I'm being a bitch by saying this, but good liberal Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, not to judge.....You know.....all those idealistic nice Jesus things that most Christians seem to ignore these days.

Btw, I like you both. I don't care that you feel the need to have some religion in your life. Mythology is interesting and meaningful to some people. I don't care that AF needs to tell you how she feels about Christian beliefs. As for me, I have learned to tolerate Christianity, for the most part, but if I'm really honest, I have no idea how any intelligent person can take any religious mythology as fact.

Yes. Plenty of smart folks do believe in gods and myths. Just the other day, a very intelligent, charming PA told me that it was amazing how "The Lord" had placed my neighbor and I next door to each other. Really? I wanted to say, do you really believe that shit? Do you honestly believe that a god decided to put two retired nurses next door to each other?

Instead, I was silent, but mildly disappointed that a medical professional still assumes that all of her patients believe in the Lord! That might sound very trivial to you, but when it constantly surrounds you on a daily basis, sometimes you just want to be honest and say to the other person, "What the fuck did you just say"? Irl, we usually hold our tongues. Here, is one of the few places where we can vent or let it out a bit.

I sure can rant if I try.

Then you should understand what its like to read an entire thread dedicated to saying the most vile things imaginable about religious people and, at best, pathologizing any dissent against atheist thinking as a form of mental illness. I do think it's best when people get along and tolerate their differences. I do not believe that giving free reign to bigotry is somehow the path to eliminating it. This kind of nonsense drives people further apart, not closer together. If you don't like religious fundamentalism, the most rational course of action, to my way of seeing things, is to reject it. Not to copy their style, with some of the labels switched but the core message of conformity-or-violence unchanged. That's just stoking the fire, and making religious or non-religious freedom difficult to reach in civil society. Do you really think young atheists are made safer by angry, unthinking anti-Christian polemics? Conversation heals. Argument does not.

Never in a million years woiuld I think to call you a "bitch"; I have always known you to a thoughtful, caring, compassionate human being. If you think I'm wandering into hypocrisy territory, you should say so, and I'll take that opinion seriously. But as you have said, my life experiences have also given me insight into human communication and the plight of minority status. And I haven't, at least at this point in my life, ever seen anything to make me think that "tolerating intolerance" leads to a net increase in tolerance. I would still be in the closet, if I believed that this were so. And I will tell you this, I did not like the closet. Is it tempting to strike back in kind at the people you see as having held the door closed? Yes. Of course it is. But it stacks up the casualties. If your aim is poor, you end up venting that rage on people who had nothing whatsoever to do with your situation -- and thus creating new enemies all around you where friendships would otherwise have been possible.

 

[abaddon]

If you take the faith bit out of religion, then what's left? Mythology? Ok, but how's that religious? Whatever moral lessons you get, whatever psychological tools you use, is that a matter of faith?

I am drawn to religion but only because sometimes religious people say wise things. I find that when I extract those wise things from religion, it's not religious anymore. If I don't invest in "belief in" things then it's not clear where the "religious" in it is.

Lately, after reading Sam Harris's Waking Up, it's the contemplatives that have become the most interesting aspect of religion to me, for having said extremely useful things. I guess if one wants to retain the religious context, then that's partly a matter of personal preferences. But not entirely. Religion has obscured even the message of these contemplatives. Religiosity seems to prefer that even their own adherents must see Belief as too sacred for exploring.

 

[Angry Floof]

For the record, I personally have not been injured by religion other than I have to live in a society full of injury and suffering due to religion. The church I grew up in was nothing but kindness and the churches I went to later didn't do anything to harm me. Even my involvement with scientology didn't hurt me too much other than a few hundred bucks out and missing out on a promotion at work because of it.

But I don't have to suffer personally in order to care about others suffering from something that doesn't directly affect me and my life. I am continuously astounded at how often I have to say this when someone suggests that religion hurt me personally so therefore I'm reacting emotionally to that hurt when I criticize religion. Pure and utter bullshit!

Plus, why is it so common for religious people to assume this? Why doesn't it ever occur to them that people actually can and do care about stuff that doesn't affect them personally and about people who are not of their ideological cult in-group? How oblivious to the suffering of others do you have to be before you choose ordinary human decency over clinging to stunted ideology? How depraved do religious environments have to be before you're willing to be more human than you are religious? How many stories do you need to hear (meaning, ignore)? And don't try the sad and tired argument that [insert religious depravity here] happens everywhere. You should know by now all the reasons that is fallacious.

I don't give a flying shit what anyone thinks of my abrasive manner and forceful words. Die mad about it. Defend your fucking beliefs with arguments about your beliefs instead of about me, why don't you? Why is your emotional reaction an excuse to avoid examining your own world view and to conveniently dismiss anything I say? Frankly, I'm glad religious believers are made uncomfortable by my comments, but you're still not excused for perpetuating and defending inhumane ideas and religious hijacking of people's animal brain fears and prejudices.

Religion is full of stunted, toxic beliefs and practices. Have the humanity and courage to pick it apart without apology. Human beings are more important than your fucking social club and all the demonstrable psychological mechanisms that went into your valuing dogma over intellectual honesty.

There's not one good thing in human experience that can't be had without religion, and believers and apologists are literally defending human social identity and indoctrination whether you're yet capable of admitting it or not. There is nothing else there to defend. And before you claim that I am the same way with my tribe, consider that my tribe is all of humanity, including people I might actively hate, and my ideology doesn't include stupidstition or valuing cognitive pitfalls that keep people stunted and ignorant. And I don't need to "recruit" anyone. Recruit to what? Humankind? Really? Is it that hard to fathom that not everyone limits their principles to just their own identity group?

Whatever ideological identity you think I might hold, it is incidental, not important. These accusations consistently come from the same people who get their values and principles from their ideological group and its authoritative mouthpieces and texts instead of developing a conscience of their own and seeking out the groups (and political candidates) that best share and reflect those values and principles, not the other way around.

 

[steve_bank]

Notice how the thread devolves into hostile attacks and rationalization in responses...

Don't remember where I read this, maybe Sun Tzu. 'Be careful how you choose your enemies, it is they who you will become most like'.

 

[Politesse]

“Be careful how you choose your enemy, for you will come to resemble him. The moment you adapt your enemy's methods your enemy has won. The rest is suffering and historical opera. ”

― Michael Ventura

 

[Learner]

Funny enough I've been to a few. You don't have to be a member or believer for the tea and scones socializing.

So drop the supernatural and call it a social club? Social and psychological support, charity work on behalf of the community and humanity with no expectation of heavenly reward?

Also maybe drop the toxic and inhumane elements like authority worship, misogyny, tribalism, moral superiority, condemnation of outgroups? And maybe institute elements that actually do mitigate the stupider and meaner side of human nature rather than reinforcing it? Like maybe valuing critical thinking, empathy, inclusiveness, acceptance of ambivalence, recognizing that one's tribe is all of humanity without exception?

If only... But then if religions did this, they would disappear, and social dominance viruses like Christianity are way too virulent to become humane influences on their own. It's going to take conscious will to weaken it and immunize humanity.

I think you are both touching upon one those "reading too much into it" moments, especially in terms of this particualr social cub scenario. And besides, the non-believer participant is quite aware of the religious co-participants, and the social club is run by the church, yet they (the non-believer) still like to take part.

Don't worry about it DBT & AF, tea and scones is available to all.

 

[Angry Floof]

Npyice how the thread devolves into hostile attacks and rationalzation in reponses...

Don't remember where I read this, maybe Sun Tzu. 'Be careful how you choose your enemies, it is they who you will become most like'.

Whatever you do, do not acknowledge rightful anger. Always call it hostility or irrationality, and that way you'll never have to examine your own!

Also, I know I've said this a bunch of times, but you really should try to step out of that "enemies" framework. It's possible that no one is your enemy, even the assholes who are pissing you off. It's worth a try, Steve.

 

[DBT]

Let us be clear. I am not criticizing "atheists". I am criticizing you. Your supposedly superior "label" means nothing to me, or to any thinking person. Your words and conduct are your own choices.

I haven't read this entire thread, but have you considered that some of us atheists have been injured either from our religious upbringing or by the way we are treated when we are open about our atheism.

I'm one of the lucky ones who was able to walk away from evangelical Christianity with very little damage. But, I have been abused by self righteous coworkers in the distant past, who condemned me, and caused division in the work place, which eventually made me ask for a transfer to another office, with a much longer commute from home. Luckily, the Christians in that office were kind, and appreciative of my work, as I was a very fast efficient worker, always ready to help my peers. I'm long over the way I've been treated, but I'm a fiesty first born who had a very close relationship with my evangelical mother, who despite her crazy beliefs, finally came to the conclusion that her first born daughter wasn't going to hell. I always saw my mother as a victim of the emotional indoctrination that she received when I was about 3 years old.

Atheists are one of the most despised, misunderstood minorities in the US. We are expected to remain in the closet, although more of us are coming out and we are growing in numbers. Certainly, you of all people can understand what it's like feeling hesitant to reveal something about yourself that might be judged and condemned by some conservative Christians?

We all react to the influences that made us who we are. I value AF's contributions. I know she gets angry sometimes. She put that right in her name as a warning. She is also a decent compassionate person with a wonderful sense of humor. I know she doesn't need me to defend her, but I can't help myself.

I know I'm being a bitch by saying this, but good liberal Christians are supposed to turn the other cheek, not to judge.....You know.....all those idealistic nice Jesus things that most Christians seem to ignore these days.

Btw, I like you both. I don't care that you feel the need to have some religion in your life. Mythology is interesting and meaningful to some people. I don't care that AF needs to tell you how she feels about Christian beliefs. As for me, I have learned to tolerate Christianity, for the most part, but if I'm really honest, I have no idea how any intelligent person can take any religious mythology as fact.

Yes. Plenty of smart folks do believe in gods and myths. Just the other day, a very intelligent, charming PA told me that it was amazing how "The Lord" had placed my neighbor and I next door to each other. Really? I wanted to say, do you really believe that shit? Do you honestly believe that a god decided to put two retired nurses next door to each other?

Instead, I was silent, but mildly disappointed that a medical professional still assumes that all of her patients believe in the Lord! That might sound very trivial to you, but when it constantly surrounds you on a daily basis, sometimes you just want to be honest and say to the other person, "What the fuck did you just say"? Irl, we usually hold our tongues. Here, is one of the few places where we can vent or let it out a bit.

I sure can rant if I try.

Then you should understand what its like to read an entire thread dedicated to saying the most vile things imaginable about religious people and, at best, pathologizing any dissent against atheist thinking as a form of mental illness. I do think it's best when people get along and tolerate their differences. I do not believe that giving free reign to bigotry is somehow the path to eliminating it. This kind of nonsense drives people further apart, not closer together. If you don't like religious fundamentalism, the most rational course of action, to my way of seeing things, is to reject it. Not to copy their style, with some of the labels switched but the core message of conformity-or-violence unchanged. That's just stoking the fire, and making religious or non-religious freedom difficult to reach in civil society. Do you really think young atheists are made safer by angry, unthinking anti-Christian polemics? Conversation heals. Argument does not.

Never in a million years woiuld I think to call you a "bitch"; I have always known you to a thoughtful, caring, compassionate human being. If you think I'm wandering into hypocrisy territory, you should say so, and I'll take that opinion seriously. But as you have said, my life experiences have also given me insight into human communication and the plight of minority status. And I haven't, at least at this point in my life, ever seen anything to make me think that "tolerating intolerance" leads to a net increase in tolerance. I would still be in the closet, if I believed that this were so. And I will tell you this, I did not like the closet. Is it tempting to strike back in kind at the people you see as having held the door closed? Yes. Of course it is. But it stacks up the casualties. If your aim is poor, you end up venting that rage on people who had nothing whatsoever to do with your situation -- and thus creating new enemies all around you where friendships would otherwise have been possible.

The thread is not about saying 'vile things about religious people.' It is about the absurdity of faith, believing fantastic things without the support of evidence.

Faith exists, people do hold beliefs without the support of evidence, and that is the point of the thread. That faith is not a reliable means to truth. That faith is not a reliable means of sorting fact from fiction.

This is not meant to insult or slander, it's just the way it is, some do believe in fantastic things without the support of evidence.

 

[Angry Floof]

Oh, on that theme of being the same as your enemy, I have a question. How does a religious believer know when they are projecting? I mean, we all do it sometimes. It's human, but most of us can in hindsight see when we projected and committed other stupidities. But Christians and other religious believers are not really big on self reflection or admitting wrong or changing their minds. All this is built into the indoctrination. Doubt and questioning are sins, self reflection is only tolerated as far as it is used to ensure compliance and not to develop conscience, you're a sinful person and deserve punishment for engaging in any of this, etc., etc.

So how would you know if you're projecting or not? What other perspectives have you honestly and thoroughly examined and "tried on" in order to tease out any possible mistakes in your own?

Similarly, how would a religious believer know when their religion has been hijacked by authority figures who only wish to use them for their obedience mentality and low ability to question authority? I know there are lots of religious believers who, for example, saw Trump for what he was before 2016 and have never fallen for it. I would congratulate those people for trusting their own values and instincts over religious herd mentality. But there are still tens of millions more who don't seem to have those values and instincts. Why?

When our collective scientific knowledge and history teach us something new, such as, say, the Milgram Experiments, and when that knowledge starts to spread, why do some people find insight into themselves in that learning and others never seem to? Even if they recognize the cognitive "mistake" being revealed, they never seem to internalize the information or reflect on their own capacity for that same behavior. I'm sure some people might figure it out later, but some people never seem to get there.

If you learn that human behavior (meaning you) includes this tendency to obey authority even when it conflicts with what you feel is right, it changes you a little bit. You start to remember situations where you behaved in exactly that way and imagine how you might have done differently, and this in turn gives you the awareness to recognize new situations where you might feel uncomfortable with authority and you consciously make the decision to not be afraid to speak up.

And some people actively seek out such knowledge for the very purpose of challenging themselves, and it's actually fun, and no religious belief or sense of identity even comes close to the level of satisfaction it brings. It's not without its downsides, though, one being that you will likely be very pissed off about a great deal of bullshit in the world, and you'll annoy others by asking them why the hell they are not also pissed.

 

[Angry Floof]

The thread is not about saying 'vile things about religious people.' It is about the absurdity of faith, believing fantastic things without the support of evidence.

Faith exists, people do hold beliefs without the support of evidence, and that is the point of the thread. That faith is not a reliable means to truth. That faith is not a reliable means of sorting fact from fiction.

This is not meant to insult or slander, it's just the way it is, some do believe in fantastic things without the support of evidence.

It's also about the psychology and cognitive aspects of religious beliefs and how they directly relate to problems and suffering in the world, especially all the vile, depraved things that abusers do under the protection and smoke screen of religious belief.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

The thread is not about saying 'vile things about religious people.' It is about the absurdity of faith, believing fantastic things without the support of evidence.

Faith exists, people do hold beliefs without the support of evidence, and that is the point of the thread. That faith is not a reliable means to truth. That faith is not a reliable means of sorting fact from fiction.

This is not meant to insult or slander, it's just the way it is, some do believe in fantastic things without the support of evidence.

It's also about the psychology and cognitive aspects of religious beliefs and how they directly relate to problems and suffering in the world, especially all the vile, depraved things that abusers do under the protection and smoke screen of religious belief.

And it's good to bring those things into the sunlight. I'm often torn. Yes, one does need to chose one's battles, verbal battles included. And there's the old charm that if you can't find something good to say better to say nothing. There is wisdom there.

 

[Angry Floof]

The thread is not about saying 'vile things about religious people.' It is about the absurdity of faith, believing fantastic things without the support of evidence.

Faith exists, people do hold beliefs without the support of evidence, and that is the point of the thread. That faith is not a reliable means to truth. That faith is not a reliable means of sorting fact from fiction.

This is not meant to insult or slander, it's just the way it is, some do believe in fantastic things without the support of evidence.

It's also about the psychology and cognitive aspects of religious beliefs and how they directly relate to problems and suffering in the world, especially all the vile, depraved things that abusers do under the protection and smoke screen of religious belief.

And it's good to bring those things into the sunlight. I'm often torn. Yes, one does need to chose one's battles, verbal battles included. And there's the old charm that if you can't find something good to say better to say nothing. There is wisdom there.

As Christopher Hitchens said, the grave will provide plenty of time for silence. There is wisdom there, too.

 

[steve_bank]

Also maybe drop the toxic and inhumane elements like authority worship, misogyny, tribalism, moral superiority, condemnation of outgroups? And maybe institute elements that actually do mitigate the stupider and meaner side of human nature rather than reinforcing it? Like maybe valuing critical thinking, empathy, inclusiveness, acceptance of ambivalence, recognizing that one's tribe is all of humanity without exception?

If only... But then if religions did this, they would disappear, and social dominance viruses like Christianity are way too virulent to become humane influences on their own. It's going to take conscious will to weaken it and immunize humanity.

I think you are both touching upon one those "reading too much into it" moments, especially in terms of this particualr social cub scenario. And besides, the non-believer participant is quite aware of the religious co-participants, and the social club is run by the church, yet they (the non-believer) still like to take part.

Don't worry about it DBT & AF, tea and scones is available to all.

Where is all that Christian bear any sufferings, forgiveness and universal love?

 

[steve_bank]

And it's good to bring those things into the sunlight. I'm often torn. Yes, one does need to chose one's battles, verbal battles included. And there's the old charm that if you can't find something good to say better to say nothing. There is wisdom there.

As Christopher Hitchens said, the grave will provide plenty of time for silence. There is wisdom there, too.

I think I read that in a fortune cookie.

 

[DBT]

Also maybe drop the toxic and inhumane elements like authority worship, misogyny, tribalism, moral superiority, condemnation of outgroups? And maybe institute elements that actually do mitigate the stupider and meaner side of human nature rather than reinforcing it? Like maybe valuing critical thinking, empathy, inclusiveness, acceptance of ambivalence, recognizing that one's tribe is all of humanity without exception?

If only... But then if religions did this, they would disappear, and social dominance viruses like Christianity are way too virulent to become humane influences on their own. It's going to take conscious will to weaken it and immunize humanity.

I think you are both touching upon one those "reading too much into it" moments, especially in terms of this particualr social cub scenario. And besides, the non-believer participant is quite aware of the religious co-participants, and the social club is run by the church, yet they (the non-believer) still like to take part.

Don't worry about it DBT & AF, tea and scones is available to all.

We take part because we are all a part of society and we are all effected by the beliefs of others as expressed in their attitudes and their actions. Pity it isn't just Tea and Scones.

 

[Angry Floof]

We take part because we are all a part of society and we are all effected by the beliefs of others as expressed in their attitudes and their actions. Pity it isn't just Tea and Scones.

No, YOU are of that part of society that is godless and wicked, that part that is separate from the morally superior social club... oops, I meant separate from God.

Christianity is fundamentally tribalist and will always serve as a source of conflict in any society. Like every authoritarian cult, the idea is that society should be entirely under the domain of the religion and then all will be lovely and peaceful for everyone. Until then, "peace" is for lost souls who worship themselves and are blind to God's love while Christian soldiers have much work to do in the war against evil.