Rationalizing faith.

[steve_bank]

Science gave us mass agriculture producing far more calories then we need, a side effect is mass producing junk food leading to obesity and medical issues like diabetes costing a lot of money.

Science gave us nuclear energy that can be used for elctrical power, amd it led to nuclear weapons.

One can argue sconce has ed to all te technology that ed up to efficient deadly warfare on a global scale.

Religion has always been part of a social and ciil cohesion and stability.

Conservatives make a case the rise in drug addictions and violence is attrubted to the diminishing of religion and the community that goes along with it.

At least to a degree I agree.

We can sit back and assume without the stabilizing influence of religion all us finicky humans are going to be rational. Observation around the world says otherwise. In the past I have asked the atheist side, if not religion what replaces religion as it goes away? Perhaps the do anything you like any time you like we have today?

I'm not sure that religion has prevented people from doing whatever they like. Perhaps causing more division and conflict than preventing war and strife. Civil law may be more effective for moderating behaviour. Just a question of who formulates the law and is it ideology replacing religion.

In a time where superstition, ignorance, and illiteracy was the norm Christinity provided a communiy structure. It was never pefect but then neither is western liberal democracy today.

If you start judging everything in absolute black and white terms then everything falls apart. Like with the current ogrom to weed out all who may seem to not fit the image of an absolute inoffensive person regarding any aspect of race and ethnicity.

In the 50s 60s when I grew up guns were easy to get. They were in the Sears mail order catalog. Yet we did not see the gun violence of today. Culture is breaking down.

If not religion what then binds us as a community. Us Americans have this myth and faith that we are the best in the world and wlll just keep going on regardless. That is a fah taken to an extreme. We will prevail no matter what. It persists even with the catastrophic failures in Afghanistan and Iraq. Ad VN war to that. Faith takes many forms.

As a side note Werner Von Braun and Heisenberg were both Nazis. Heisenberg I believe was running the Nazi nuclear program. He was sequestered by the Brits post war.

Von Braun was an utterly amoral scientist and if he did not have value to the USA he would have been tried on crimes against humanity and hung. He used slave labor at his rocket factory. Lifespan was about 6 months. His rockets had little military value, they were civilian terror weapons. He had no ethics in his pursuit of his dream of getting into space.

 

[Angry Floof]

Death, the loss of everyone you know and everything you have worked for is a powerful and scary element for some to seriously contemplate. Faith, it appears, is a convenient and comforting psychological escape from the thought of annihilation.

Not just faith in religion, we all or maybe most of us find a way to adjust to reality. It is somthimes called comming to terms with reality or getting right with the world.

Today te culture is immersed in 24/7 diversion. 24/7 meal delivery and Netflix. Until the spread of pot alchohol was the standard escape. And then there is sex outside of procreation.

What has been reported in the pandemic is that deprived of a daily routine alcoholism, drug addiction, and suicide has risen. People have lost the ability to cope with reality without a crutch. Christians would argue religious faith fills that hole.

In the 70s I had a philosophy prof who said 'the message is escape baby'. The ancient philosophers with nothing else created metaphysic's providing endless distraction that has lasted throughout history. People today deate the same questions.

What is reality.

Being now forcibly retired this forum is a distraction. During the day I play around with math.

I found an old math book circa early 1900s in a used book store. Back then average people did math problems and puxxles for fun. Many crossword puzzle publications. The NYT still has a crossword puzzle.

Now it is video games.

We all find a way to rationalize our existence in a chaotic, unstable, violent and corrupt world. Religion is but one of many ways..

How many of your distractions are ideologies that teach you that you're broken and sinful and must believe a certain story to be whole again? How many tell you they are the only source of truth and everybody outside the circle of wagons will only lie to you because, after all, they are a different type of human that is lost and under the influence of evil and not safe and cleansed by holding the correct beliefs? How many prey on your weaknesses to control you?

The non-religious "distractions" in the world that even come close to this kind of abusive, manipulative influence would be marketing and right wing politics, both of which use similar tactics to manipulate, only they manipulate you toward a slightly different set of behaviors.

 

[Angry Floof]

Now I'm imagining Jerry Garcia telling his crowds that they need to go out and convert as many people to the Deadhead movement that they can, and that they are lost and broken without the Dead, and that the Dead is the only truth they will ever find in the world, etc.

Of course, with the Grateful Dead in particular, probably at least a few people do believe and do such things due to their fandom. But no one is telling them to. No one guilted them into coming to shows. No one tried to tell them their true nature as human beings, other than "be kind to each other" kind of messages with no contradictory messages saying kill gays or fight an imaginary "spiritual war" with the world or beat your children or kill witches or your fundamental nature is sin and unworthiness. The Grateful Dead didn't [Insert any of the many, many inhumane and manipulative religious practices/teachings here].

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Death, the loss of everyone you know and everything you have worked for is a powerful and scary element for some to seriously contemplate. Faith, it appears, is a convenient and comforting psychological escape from the thought of annihilation.

Not just faith in religion, we all or maybe most of us find a way to adjust to reality. It is somthimes called comming to terms with reality or getting right with the world.

Today te culture is immersed in 24/7 diversion. 24/7 meal delivery and Netflix. Until the spread of pot alchohol was the standard escape. And then there is sex outside of procreation.

What has been reported in the pandemic is that deprived of a daily routine alcoholism, drug addiction, and suicide has risen. People have lost the ability to cope with reality without a crutch. Christians would argue religious faith fills that hole.

In the 70s I had a philosophy prof who said 'the message is escape baby'. The ancient philosophers with nothing else created metaphysic's providing endless distraction that has lasted throughout history. People today deate the same questions.

What is reality.

Being now forcibly retired this forum is a distraction. During the day I play around with math.

I found an old math book circa early 1900s in a used book store. Back then average people did math problems and puxxles for fun. Many crossword puzzle publications. The NYT still has a crossword puzzle.

Now it is video games.

We all find a way to rationalize our existence in a chaotic, unstable, violent and corrupt world. Religion is but one of many ways..

How many of your distractions are ideologies that teach you that you're broken and sinful and must believe a certain story to be whole again? How many tell you they are the only source of truth and everybody outside the circle of wagons will only lie to you because, after all, they are a different type of human that is lost and under the influence of evil and not safe and cleansed by holding the correct beliefs? How many prey on your weaknesses to control you?

The non-religious "distractions" in the world that even come close to this kind of abusive, manipulative influence would be marketing and right wing politics, both of which use similar tactics to manipulate, only they manipulate you toward a slightly different set of behaviors.

Religion, if it is sincere, really is a private thing. Public religion is just another business. I can honestly respect a person who holds that he or she can have an actual relationship with some kind of other nebulous intelligence, and that it makes them a better person, even if we know that their particular brain anatomy is creating a delusion. Public displays of religion, however, are just hypocrisy for the sake of tribalism.

 

[southernhybrid]

Science gave us mass agriculture producing far more calories then we need, a side effect is mass producing junk food leading to obesity and medical issues like diabetes costing a lot of money.

Science gave us nuclear energy that can be used for elctrical power, amd it led to nuclear weapons.

One can argue sconce has ed to all te technology that ed up to efficient deadly warfare on a global scale.

Religion has always been part of a social and ciil cohesion and stability.

Conservatives make a case the rise in drug addictions and violence is attrubted to the diminishing of religion and the community that goes along with it.

At least to a degree I agree.

We can sit back and assume without the stabilizing influence of religion all us finicky humans are going to be rational. Observation around the world says otherwise. In the past I have asked the atheist side, if not religion what replaces religion as it goes away? Perhaps the do anything you like any time you like we have today?

I'm not sure that religion has prevented people from doing whatever they like. Perhaps causing more division and conflict than preventing war and strife. Civil law may be more effective for moderating behaviour. Just a question of who formulates the law and is it ideology replacing religion.

In a time where superstition, ignorance, and illiteracy was the norm Christinity provided a communiy structure. It was never pefect but then neither is western liberal democracy today.

If you start judging everything in absolute black and white terms then everything falls apart. Like with the current ogrom to weed out all who may seem to not fit the image of an absolute inoffensive person regarding any aspect of race and ethnicity.

In the 50s 60s when I grew up guns were easy to get. They were in the Sears mail order catalog. Yet we did not see the gun violence of today. Culture is breaking down.

If not religion what then binds us as a community. Us Americans have this myth and faith that we are the best in the world and wlll just keep going on regardless. That is a fah taken to an extreme. We will prevail no matter what. It persists even with the catastrophic failures in Afghanistan and Iraq. Ad VN war to that. Faith takes many forms.

As a side note Werner Von Braun and Heisenberg were both Nazis. Heisenberg I believe was running the Nazi nuclear program. He was sequestered by the Brits post war.

Von Braun was an utterly amoral scientist and if he did not have value to the USA he would have been tried on crimes against humanity and hung. He used slave labor at his rocket factory. Lifespan was about 6 months. His rockets had little military value, they were civilian terror weapons. He had no ethics in his pursuit of his dream of getting into space.

When did religion ever bind us as a community? I'm perplexed by that claim. What I've seen and experienced is that religion often causes hatred and division and a sense of absolute self righteousness. Of course this isn't true of all religious ideologies or of all who follow a religious ideology, but religion has been used to justify wars, slavery, racism, and it often harshly judges and condemns those outside of one's religious community.

As I've said before, religion is like any other human made ideology. Sometimes it has a positive impact and other times it has a destructive impact, but we certainly can't make the claim that it binds us as a community. Perhaps it binds small groups of people, but not the community of large. If anything, it divides us.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Perhaps it binds small groups of people, but not the community of large. If anything, it divides us.

That's an essential.
Exodus 20:13: Thou shalt not kill.
Deuteronomy 20:17: ...but you shall utterly destroy them, the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites, as the Lord your God has commanded...
The speaker in both verses is God, first commanding them not to kill, then ordering them to commit genocide. Turns out the business about not killing was self-referential, and applied to the in-group only (and only then in certain situations.)

 

[Angry Floof]

How many of your distractions are ideologies that teach you that you're broken and sinful and must believe a certain story to be whole again? How many tell you they are the only source of truth and everybody outside the circle of wagons will only lie to you because, after all, they are a different type of human that is lost and under the influence of evil and not safe and cleansed by holding the correct beliefs? How many prey on your weaknesses to control you?

The non-religious "distractions" in the world that even come close to this kind of abusive, manipulative influence would be marketing and right wing politics, both of which use similar tactics to manipulate, only they manipulate you toward a slightly different set of behaviors.

Religion, if it is sincere, really is a private thing. Public religion is just another business. I can honestly respect a person who holds that he or she can have an actual relationship with some kind of other nebulous intelligence, and that it makes them a better person, even if we know that their particular brain anatomy is creating a delusion. Public displays of religion, however, are just hypocrisy for the sake of tribalism.

I'm in total agreement here. I don't care what a person believes privately and personally, and I don't care if they want to talk about their own independent thoughts and actual experiences in that regard. In fact, I believe that enriches all of us.

This is why I love the Quakers. They do not play around with those inhumane beliefs and constructs or imposing any particular rules or group structure. Once again, George Fox was a very insightful guy and he pretty much eradicated the poisonous elements of religion when he founded the Friends, and thus creating a community and philosophy where people can actually experience something like the divine in their lives and in their meetings without anyone telling them what their experience or interpretation of God should be. I think it was called The Society of Friends or Religious Order of Friends lo those 400 years ago. If an individual says they only believe in Jesus and not organized religion, they should really consider joining the Quakers instead of helping to empower the sick and corrupt religion of mainstream Christianity.

 

[atrib]

Now I'm imagining Jerry Garcia telling his crowds that they need to go out and convert as many people to the Deadhead movement that they can, and that they are lost and broken without the Dead, and that the Dead is the only truth they will ever find in the world, etc.

Of course, with the Grateful Dead in particular, probably at least a few people do believe and do such things due to their fandom. But no one is telling them to. No one guilted them into coming to shows. No one tried to tell them their true nature as human beings, other than "be kind to each other" kind of messages with no contradictory messages saying kill gays or fight an imaginary "spiritual war" with the world or beat your children or kill witches or your fundamental nature is sin and unworthiness. The Grateful Dead didn't [Insert any of the many, many inhumane and manipulative religious practices/teachings here].

So true. I have been to over a dozen Dead shows during the 80's and early 90's, and some of the nicest people I have met on this planet I have met at these shows. I have often been offered and given food and shelter, and once even a nice leather jacket (on a cold night waiting to buy tickets outside the Omni in Atlanta) by my fellow Deadheads.

 

[steve_bank]

I saw the Dead in Hatford Ct circa 1973, it is online somewhere.

The Grateful Dead followers became a cult based in halucinagenics. It as not erxplicit but the Dead, the Airplane-saw then to twice - and others promoted a drug culture.

It was proselytizing for the 'counter culture' such as it was.

Garcia drank, smoked, and drugged himself to death literaly.

 

[steve_bank]

In a time where superstition, ignorance, and illiteracy was the norm Christinity provided a communiy structure. It was never pefect but then neither is western liberal democracy today.

If you start judging everything in absolute black and white terms then everything falls apart. Like with the current ogrom to weed out all who may seem to not fit the image of an absolute inoffensive person regarding any aspect of race and ethnicity.

In the 50s 60s when I grew up guns were easy to get. They were in the Sears mail order catalog. Yet we did not see the gun violence of today. Culture is breaking down.

If not religion what then binds us as a community. Us Americans have this myth and faith that we are the best in the world and wlll just keep going on regardless. That is a fah taken to an extreme. We will prevail no matter what. It persists even with the catastrophic failures in Afghanistan and Iraq. Ad VN war to that. Faith takes many forms.

As a side note Werner Von Braun and Heisenberg were both Nazis. Heisenberg I believe was running the Nazi nuclear program. He was sequestered by the Brits post war.

Von Braun was an utterly amoral scientist and if he did not have value to the USA he would have been tried on crimes against humanity and hung. He used slave labor at his rocket factory. Lifespan was about 6 months. His rockets had little military value, they were civilian terror weapons. He had no ethics in his pursuit of his dream of getting into space.

When did religion ever bind us as a community? I'm perplexed by that claim. What I've seen and experienced is that religion often causes hatred and division and a sense of absolute self righteousness. Of course this isn't true of all religious ideologies or of all who follow a religious ideology, but religion has been used to justify wars, slavery, racism, and it often harshly judges and condemns those outside of one's religious community.

As I've said before, religion is like any other human made ideology. Sometimes it has a positive impact and other times it has a destructive impact, but we certainly can't make the claim that it binds us as a community. Perhaps it binds small groups of people, but not the community of large. If anything, it divides us.

Me thinks you doth protest too much .... now who is dong the rationalizing?

Politics is as raw as it gets. Kill or be killed behavior. Our American myth of invincibility have led us into disastrous conflicts in VN, Iraq, Syria, and Afghanistan. We chant the mantra democracy and liberty for all, and leave behind large scale destruction, death, nd misery.

As you seem to demonstrate, the secular can be as narrow minded, bigoted, and biased as the religious. China's atheist CCP is as racist as gets. Toss in the Japanese, nororius racist and jingoist. I know people who have seen Japnese only signs.

The Soviet atheist regime.

Back in the 80s there was a gay sports club in Portland that would not let in bisexuals. It never ends and religion is just one form.

As I said you need to broaden your horizons. Watch that first step, it is a big one. Venturing into new territories of thought ca be unsettling.

As I said we all do it in one way or another.

 

[Angry Floof]

As I said you need to broaden your horizons. Watch that first step, it is a big one. Venturing into new territories of thought ca be unsettling.

One of the most basic dynamics that keeps toxic religion alive and well.

As I said we all do it in one way or another.

Well, that's convenient. Can't tell codified abuse from general experience so whaddyagonna do? Specific, intentional, purposeful hijacking of human weakness for the benefit of a few controlling class is too hard to figure out in this sea of human behavior! Oh, well, nothing to see here. No point in looking further. I guess we just all go home now.

 

[DBT]

Fear and desire being the wet dream of all Marketeers.

 

[sdelsolray]

Even online dictionary definitions have shifted to reflect common usage. Faith practically being synonymous with trust and confidence, etc. It's quite odd.

In most dictionaries, the word "faith" has two definitions. One is theistic and the other is secular. Please don't confuse the two.

 

[DBT]

Even online dictionary definitions have shifted to reflect common usage. Faith practically being synonymous with trust and confidence, etc. It's quite odd.

In most dictionaries, the word "faith" has two definitions. One is theistic and the other is secular. Please don't confuse the two.

I'm not confusing anything. Definitions and descriptions have been given.

 

[steve_bank]

As I said you need to broaden your horizons. Watch that first step, it is a big one. Venturing into new territories of thought ca be unsettling.

One of the most basic dynamics that keeps toxic religion alive and well.

As I said we all do it in one way or another.

Well, that's convenient. Can't tell codified abuse from general experience so whaddyagonna do? Specific, intentional, purposeful hijacking of human weakness for the benefit of a few controlling class is too hard to figure out in this sea of human behavior! Oh, well, nothing to see here. No point in looking further. I guess we just all go home now.

Right now for me the most toxic thing in our culture is mass marketing. It is creting insane images that it markets .

It is no wonder our collective mental health is suffering. Pop culture is replacing religion as the source for people.

Remember that Christianity replaced traditionally philosophy as the source for wisdom and guidance.

Tribalism has emerged in a big way. Followers of a particular band who rationalize all sorts of behavior from their idols.

Most people never realized the Rolling Stones stage act was just that, an act. Rather than being the anti system and anti establishment image they portrayed, Jagger became a major financial player in Europe and made the band wealthy.

Again, religion is just one facet of the whole. Expatiation of the faithful.

If you think peoting drugs in music starting in the 60s was a good thing, lok at the growing substabce avuse problems.

We have lost any collective moral center in favor of anything goes without self restraint. Incessant 24/7 'peos;etizing' by narket sells 24/7 continuous gratification.

I take as one of the traditional core Christian values as self moderation. Buddhism as well, the Middle Way.

Religion is dminishing, no doubt about it. The question remains what relaces it as a social glue.

Right now some of it is pro sports, drugs, alcohol, movies, TV, and music.

Washington is moving towards complete decriminalization of all drugs.

Civil unrest is growing.

If you are narrowly focused on religion you may be missing the real issues. Some atheists get off on attacking religion just like some heist get off on attacking those veil atheists. Both sides derive meaning and a tribal identity in the process. Easy to see it in others, harder to see it in ourselves.

Another Christian idea, it is not those you attack who get hurt, it s you hurting yourself. It is nit unique to Chritainity.

In Buddhism right action, right speech, no intoxicants and so on.

Religion is the last thing I am worried about right now.

As to faith, on what rational basis do you believe tomorrow, next week, or next year will stable? Maybe you just vae a blind faith it will be there? How about when you retire?

The question of faith is not just religious.

 

[DBT]

Chasing the All Mighty Dollar appears to be the greatest religion of all time.

 

[Angry Floof]

Chasing the All Mighty Dollar appears to be the greatest religion of all time.

Christianity has gone a long way toward underpinning our currently predatory, capitalistic world of inequality.

 

[steve_bank]

Chasing the All Mighty Dollar appears to be the greatest religion of all time.

Christianity has gone a long way toward underpinning our currently predatory, capitalistic world of inequality.

Ahhh!! Now we see the real Angry Foof come through!!! Notice how he rationalizes away from the question of non religious faith.

It is all the fault of those pesky Christians? According to Christians it is all the fault of atheists.

Forms of free market capitalism, trade, and investment all go back to the very beginnings of human civilizations. Religion or more properly mythology has always been part of the stat.

I grew up with George Washington and the cherry tree along with 'Honest' Abe Lincoln. Both bogus myths, but serving a social purpose. Just like religion.

Recently yet another music media star died from an overdose. Hendrix, Joplin, Cobain , Garcia and a long list who are rationalized by the followers-believers.

Hate is hate regardless if it is theist against atheist or atheist against rtheist. Equally destructive and serves no purpose.

Keep in mind were it not for a few key battles Europe might have gone Muslim.

 

[Angry Floof]

Chasing the All Mighty Dollar appears to be the greatest religion of all time.

Christianity has gone a long way toward underpinning our currently predatory, capitalistic world of inequality.

Ahhh!! Now we see the real Angry Foof come through!!! Notice how he rationalizes away from the question of non religious faith.

It is all the fault of those pesky Christians? According to Christians it is all the fault of atheists.

Forms of free market capitalism, trade, and investment all go back to the very beginnings of human civilizations. Religion or more properly mythology has always been part of the stat.

I grew up with George Washington and the cherry tree along with 'Honest' Abe Lincoln. Both bogus myths, but serving a social purpose. Just like religion.

Recently yet another music media star died from an overdose. Hendrix, Joplin, Cobain , Garcia and a long list who are rationalized by the followers-believers.

Hate is hate regardless if it is theist against atheist or atheist against rtheist. Equally destructive and serves no purpose.

Keep in mind were it not for a few key battles Europe might have gone Muslim.

"The real Angry Floof"? I've said this or some variation of it for years. Where have you been? Yes, Western culture is deeply ingrained with all those elements of Christian insanity that we've been talking about all this time. It's the reason weak, mediocre men do as they please with little or no accountability. Or did you think there was some other reason?

 

[Lumpenproletariat]

Before the first century AD there was no philosophical discussion about "faith" per se, such as we've had over the last 2000 years. So it's appropriate to consider how this word -- πιστις -- is used in the New Testament, to indicate what it means. Maybe its meaning has expanded since then. But the interest in this word began with those first-century writings.

There are some breathtaking attempts at justifying faith being floated.

Here is an example, enjoy:

Quote;
''What then is faith? As a first pass, we should . . . [etc.]

Faith requires not trust from a distance but an entrusting ourselves where we venture or risk ourselves and our wellbeing to some thing or person.

There's a mistake here, if the claim is that there must be risk. The "faith" or πιστις of the New Testament does not require risk, even if risk might be involved in many cases of faith. There are verses which mention risk or danger to believers, and yet taking risk is not fundamentally part of the meaning of πιστις.

To truly place our faith in a chair, we must sit down and risk the chair’s collapsing. Or a much better illustration is the risk one takes when one gets married. A healthy marriage requires us to entrust virtually every area of our lives to our spouse and this opens us up to the deepest hurt when there is betrayal. . . .

It's true that "faith" can involve trust in something so that you're risking danger if your trust is misplaced, or you believe falsely in the reliability of that one you trust. Marriage and other contracts often do require taking risk.

But other examples of "faith" do not require that kind of trust, or risk of harm, so that the risk per se is not an essential part of what "faith" means.

The most frequent example of πιστις in the New Testament is the case of one who approaches Jesus for healing, and who believes or has faith. There was no risk to them in hoping he could perform the healing. Rather, it was a belief they had in his power to heal, their hope, probably based on earlier reports they heard about him. And they did not risk anything by having this belief, or asking him to do the healing act.

It isn't necessary to make this "faith" anything more complicated than that. It didn't have to be anything profound, or anything heroic on the part of the believer. It's rather philosophers and theologians since then who have magnified it into something complicated.

''Everyone has faith, in this sense, insofar as they entrust themselves to someone or something. Again, when we get married, we entrust our feelings, wellbeing, livelihood, possessions, etc., to our spouses. When we fly on an air plane, we entrust ourselves to the aircraft, the pilots, the mechanics who serviced the plane, etc. When we do science, we entrust ourselves to certain methodologies, prior theories and data, and our empirical and mental faculties. There is nothing unique about Christian faith other than the object of that faith.''

Perhaps, but it's incorrect to suggest that RISK is necessarily a part of what "faith" means. Jesus is quoted saying "Your faith has saved you" several times. In no case of this was there any risk being taken by the believer.

The idea that RISK is essential seems to be part of the salvation-by-works error, or salvation-by-merit, by being brave and heroic and daring. But nothing about πιστις in the New Testament requires that the believer must be brave or heroic and must embark on a dangerous adventure, or perform a great admirable sacrifice.

There are NT passages which emphasize sacrifice and witness which might lead to danger, but these admonitions/warnings are not connected to the πιστις word. Verses emphasizing martyrdom and sacrifice are not statements of terms or conditions for gaining salvation, as the πιστις word is.