Religions do not teach Justice & yet no one points it out

[Keith&Co.]

"If the person who did the damage MUST be the one to do the replacement, that's more vengeance, not justice" - excuse me?

You can read what I wr

You made a mess, should you get to walk away or should you be the person cleaning it up

I'm just trying to decide what you mean by justice.

So, if I go out to the mailbox Monday night, and the post has been snapped off at the base by impact, that's harm.
I rant and rave and get angry. But when I go out for the paper Tuesday morning, I find that there's a new mailbox. Is that justice? I've been 'made whole' which you keep repeating. But I don't know if the person who broke it had to pay for replacing it, or if some stranger was being nice. Is the suffering of the perpetrator important for determining if justice has been done?

How does it make any difference to me if the perp does or does not pay for the mailbox? If Dad takes the money out of the kid's allowance, it doesn't change the cost of the mailbox or the time it'll take to install it. Why do you feel it important that there is some suffering?

I think your opposition to this idea is based on religion

We haven't GOTTEN to my position on this idea. We're still trying to flesh out what THIS IDEA of yours actually is.

your religion teaches vengeance

Well, so does yours, apparently. Your idea of 'justice' seems to include the violator being forced to suffer. His suffering does nothing for the victim, but the idea that there are consequences makes you feel better.
I would guess...
From what I can glean of your stories and incomplete descriptions of justice.

Would love a definition.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Basically if you have a misfortune you have a choice - someone runs over your dog - you can either take your car and run over that other guy's dog or accept his apologies and get a new dog. Not that it will replace what has been lost but it is a better way

So, then it's not justice if you get a new dog? What would justice look like in this scenario? Or maybe there is no justice in this scenario?

 

[Ramaraksha]

Basically if you have a misfortune you have a choice - someone runs over your dog - you can either take your car and run over that other guy's dog or accept his apologies and get a new dog. Not that it will replace what has been lost but it is a better way

So, then it's not justice if you get a new dog? What would justice look like in this scenario? Or maybe there is no justice in this scenario?

Basically Justice is about the victim, whereas Vengeance is about the Criminal. The criminal is tortured or killed, that does nothing for the victim.

Say a family has been saving up money for their kids education and their retirement - some criminal steals all that money. Their retirement hopes are dashed, their children's future is ruined. So finally the criminal is caught and punished - jailed, beaten, killed whatever but the money is not recovered. How does it benefit the victim? They still suffer - that is why it is not Justice - it is Vengeance

The money given back to them with interest - at that point - i am sure the family would love to just get their money back - that is justice - non-violent, peaceful - all about the victim

This is not that hard - unfortunately religions do not preach justice - they preach vengeance which satisfies our blood lust

 

[Ramaraksha]

You can read what I wr

You made a mess, should you get to walk away or should you be the person cleaning it up

I'm just trying to decide what you mean by justice.

So, if I go out to the mailbox Monday night, and the post has been snapped off at the base by impact, that's harm.
I rant and rave and get angry. But when I go out for the paper Tuesday morning, I find that there's a new mailbox. Is that justice? I've been 'made whole' which you keep repeating. But I don't know if the person who broke it had to pay for replacing it, or if some stranger was being nice. Is the suffering of the perpetrator important for determining if justice has been done?

How does it make any difference to me if the perp does or does not pay for the mailbox? If Dad takes the money out of the kid's allowance, it doesn't change the cost of the mailbox or the time it'll take to install it. Why do you feel it important that there is some suffering?

I think your opposition to this idea is based on religion

We haven't GOTTEN to my position on this idea. We're still trying to flesh out what THIS IDEA of yours actually is.

your religion teaches vengeance

Well, so does yours, apparently. Your idea of 'justice' seems to include the violator being forced to suffer. His suffering does nothing for the victim, but the idea that there are consequences makes you feel better.
I would guess...
From what I can glean of your stories and incomplete descriptions of justice.

Would love a definition.

I get the feeling that you are a kid
"Violator is being forced to suffer" - really? If you made a mess asking you to clean it up is wrong? its making you suffer so it is wrong?

See my post to Shadowy Man - Justice is all about the victim - he or she has to be made whole - whether the criminal pays the victim back or some other way it happens, doesn't matter. In the Cartoon that i posted, the little girl comes back in another life - she gets to enjoy life that was cruelly taken away from her - parents love, growing up, school, friends, falling in love, marriage, kids - all these things were taken away from her. Only Reincarnation can give her back what she lost

Nothing to do with the Criminal - the criminal is not involved & fyi - nothing "bad" happens to the criminal either - well something does but that's another Hindu Chapter

 

[Ramaraksha]

Originally posted by Ramaraksha:

??? a bit wishy-washy there aren't you? What does that mean exactly? In the case of a little girl who was abducted, raped and killed - this actually happened in Minnesota - please explain all this talk of seeing and feeling served using her as an example

Wishy washy? I don't see how. The little girl is obviously not going to see justice done. She's dead. What about her loved ones? How does making claims that in another life (whether that be heaven or with reincarnation) she'll receive justice. Part of justice is seeing it in action. Knowing the killer will not be able to harm others. Reincarnated justice is just another claim by another religion which is unsubstantiated. Even if reincarnation were real, you don't remember your past life, therefore there's really no way to learn from your past, your mistakes, or feel that justice has been served. You may as well be another person for all the good reincarnation does you.

Try to think about it as if you're an outsider to your own religion.

And why must you remember your past life - time to move on - that past life is gone - what's the need of hanging on to it? Yes you are another person and you get what was robbed from you in the past life - that little girl never got to grow up, school, friends, first crushes and dances, college, career, marriage, kids - all that were taken away from her. Only reincarnation can give her the joy of life that she never got to enjoy

We have other kids also - born with an affliction or brain-damage - they remain confined to their wheel chairs - wondering why they never got to taste life while everyone else got to

You keep confusing Vengeance with Justice - Justice has nothing to do with the criminal - whether he pays for his crimes or nicely sob, repent and nice God lets him go to heaven - funny "justice" right? - that does nothing for the victim. Justice is all about the victim

Vengeance is about the criminal - harming him, killing him - that is what Hollywood loves - something bad happens to the Hero or Heroine in the beginning of the movie and the rest of the movie he/she spends hunting down the evil people - a total bloodfest
But at the end of the day did the hero or heroine get their loved ones back? Did they get the life that they once had back? Nope

 

[Ramaraksha]

Not really - there is no accountant sitting in the sky and adding up debits and credits - bad things don't happen to you because you did bad things in the previous life - that is a wrong view. Take a look at my post on 9/1 - my answer to steve jobs coming back as a chinese worker - that should give you an idea

I wasn't responding to what you said. I made a general comment. Some believe both, that karma works over multiple lifetimes and during one's current lifetime. Either way, assuming karma is true, there has to be a connection and means of balance between seemingly disconnected events, hence my comment about a cosmic accountant.....which is not meant to suggest a literal little balding guy with a stack of ledgers on his desk.

I don't believe Karma or some accountant following people over life times - what actually happens is Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That - you get to be what you are. So the guy dreaming of 72 virgins in heaven will come back as a bonobo monkey, some birds or fish - get to have lots of sex - he gets what he wants - he will be in his chosen heaven.
Most people who dream of heaven - the easy life of doing nothing - will come back as pets - dog, cat, fish, pig - lots of choices

It is not a punishment - it is basically being who they are - they get to be what they are or what they want

 

[Keith&Co.]

I get the feeling that you are a kid

And this is pertinent to your continued failure to provide a definition, how?

"Violator is being forced to suffer" - really? If you made a mess asking you to clean it up is wrong? its making you suffer so it is wrong?

Well, YOU said that justice is all about the victim, not punishing the perpetrator. Therefore, it shouldn't matter for JUSTICE if the violator has to suffer.
BUT you insist on a punishment aspect. So, according to you, that's vengeance, not justice.

See my post to Shadowy Man - Justice is all about the victim - he or she has to be made whole - whether the criminal pays the victim back or some other way it happens, doesn't matter.

So, now you're contradicting yourself. To be consistent, justice would be something that happens independent of who pays, if it's all about the victim. If punishment is important to you, you're still fixated on vengeance, just like (according to you) everyone else.

In the Cartoon that i posted, the little girl comes back in another life - she gets to enjoy life that was cruelly taken away from her - parents love, growing up, school, friends, falling in love, marriage, kids - all these things were taken away from her. Only Reincarnation can give her back what she lost

No. That may be REPLACING what she lost, but that's not giving it back to her. It's not even a subtle distinction.
THe life that was cruelly taken away is STILL lost to her. She's still lost to her parents that survived her.

And as far as: "parents love, growing up, school, friends, falling in love, marriage, kids" don't be absurd. Not all kids get their parents' love, or get to go to school. THe girl JUST left a life where she DID NOT grow up, get married, have kids. Who's to say that the next life won't end just as abruptly? And what did she do in a previous life that earned her being killed so early in this one?
A lot of holes in this theory...

Nothing to do with the Criminal - the criminal is not involved & fyi - nothing "bad" happens to the criminal either - well something does but that's another Hindu Chapter

So, why do you insist on the criminal suffering? Or, SOMETIMES insist on the criminal being made to pay, not consistently?
What's your definition of 'justice?'

 

[Ramaraksha]

And this is pertinent to your continued failure to provide a definition, how?

"Violator is being forced to suffer" - really? If you made a mess asking you to clean it up is wrong? its making you suffer so it is wrong?

Well, YOU said that justice is all about the victim, not punishing the perpetrator. Therefore, it shouldn't matter for JUSTICE if the violator has to suffer.
BUT you insist on a punishment aspect. So, according to you, that's vengeance, not justice.

See my post to Shadowy Man - Justice is all about the victim - he or she has to be made whole - whether the criminal pays the victim back or some other way it happens, doesn't matter.

So, now you're contradicting yourself. To be consistent, justice would be something that happens independent of who pays, if it's all about the victim. If punishment is important to you, you're still fixated on vengeance, just like (according to you) everyone else.

In the Cartoon that i posted, the little girl comes back in another life - she gets to enjoy life that was cruelly taken away from her - parents love, growing up, school, friends, falling in love, marriage, kids - all these things were taken away from her. Only Reincarnation can give her back what she lost

No. That may be REPLACING what she lost, but that's not giving it back to her. It's not even a subtle distinction.
THe life that was cruelly taken away is STILL lost to her. She's still lost to her parents that survived her.

And as far as: "parents love, growing up, school, friends, falling in love, marriage, kids" don't be absurd. Not all kids get their parents' love, or get to go to school. THe girl JUST left a life where she DID NOT grow up, get married, have kids. Who's to say that the next life won't end just as abruptly? And what did she do in a previous life that earned her being killed so early in this one?
A lot of holes in this theory...

Nothing to do with the Criminal - the criminal is not involved & fyi - nothing "bad" happens to the criminal either - well something does but that's another Hindu Chapter

So, why do you insist on the criminal suffering? Or, SOMETIMES insist on the criminal being made to pay, not consistently?
What's your definition of 'justice?'

I still think you are but a kid

Yes it does not matter whether the criminal is punished or not - the point is that the victim becomes whole again - did you not read the example i gave Shadowy man - the family lost their money - Justice is when they get their money back - Vengeance is when the criminal is beaten or killed
Simple really

The reason you make this so hard is because you are a kid

As for the criminal suffering - these are different kinds of suffering - if you did something bad like broke something, would you 1)prefer a beating or 2)pay for a new item?
With option 1 - it does nothing for the victim - the owner of the item that you broke - he is still out of his treasured item
But with option 2 - the victim is happy - that is justice

You seem so fixated on the criminal getting hurt, who pays the victim back etc - the main idea is being lost. Be honest - am i not right? Are you not a kid?

As for previous life and earned this or that - there is no such thing - life happens that's all - yes bad things might, no, bad things will happen in the next life as well - nothing is guaranteed. But if you want a life - marriage, kids, growing up - the only way is Reincarnation. Heaven cannot give you that

 

[Keith&Co.]

I still think you are but a kid

Maybe later i'll care what you mean by 'kid.' I'm still trying to nail down what you mean by 'justice.'

Yes it does not matter whether the criminal is punished or not -

Okay, so we're getting closer. Justice IS about replacement, whether it comes from the perpetrator or not... Got a definition?

the point is that the victim becomes whole again - did you not read the example i gave Shadowy man - the family lost their money - Justice is when they get their money back - Vengeance is when the criminal is beaten or killed
Simple really

Except you listed 'quick' as a trait of vengeance, then offered 'Kill Bill' as an example, which isn't quick revenge. So, you can see why i have to keep asking for a consistent definition rather than jumping all over the map the way you do.

The reason you make this so hard is because you are a kid

I just keep asking for a definition of justice. And vengeance.
I don't think we can move forward until we have one that you'll stick to.
Why is that so hard for you?

As for the criminal suffering - these are different kinds of suffering - if you did something bad like broke something, would you 1)prefer a beating or 2)pay for a new item?

Why is it up to me, again? That's a subjective choice. If i'm saving up money for something, maybe i'll take the beating over paying for it. Say if i've got JUST enough money for a necessary medical expense.
But we're still on YOU. How do YOU define vengeance? And justice, if it doesn't always involve the perp 'paying' in some way.

With option 1 - it does nothing for the victim - the owner of the item that you broke - he is still out of his treasured item
But with option 2 - the victim is happy - that is justice

Ah. So it's the victim's emotional response that's part of identifying Justice? But if HE wants the perp to suffer, visibly, if his happiness satisfied by revenge, is that justice?

You seem so fixated on the criminal getting hurt, who pays the victim back etc - the main idea is being lost.

I keep coming around to suffering because YOU kept making that part of your examples. You kept insisting that the perp pay for the damage. This would be a lot easier if you could offer a definition rather than partial examples and contradictory stories.

Be honest - am i not right? Are you not a kid?

I don't know what you mean by 'kid.' I don't think of myself as a kid, really. Certainly not since i retired from the Navy. But why is my age (or whatever you use to measure 'kid' trait) important to you?

As for previous life and earned this or that - there is no such thing - life happens that's all - yes bad things might, no, bad things will happen in the next life as well - nothing is guaranteed.

Then if there's no guarantee, there's no way you can say that reincarnation offers a replacement of what the little girl lost. If there's no plan, then it's just a random chance that her next life will be an improvement. So why believe in it?

But if you want a life - marriage, kids, growing up - the only way is Reincarnation. Heaven cannot give you that

But If Heaven is paradise, why do we need marriage, kids, growing up? Why would the trappings of mortal life be important in a completely different setting? Why would we want such things?

 

[Keith&Co.]

So, this philosopher once said:

Buying a new toy for the friend coming out of your kids allowance is justice -

Justice SEEMS to include punishment of the criminal.

But elsewhere, this same philosopher says that justice has NOTHING to do with the criminal.

But then, goes back to saying every action has consequences and this NEEDS to happen to criminals, as part of the effort to describe what Justice is, and why reincarnation is better...

Can you really not see why i find it confusing?

 

[DBT]

I wasn't responding to what you said. I made a general comment. Some believe both, that karma works over multiple lifetimes and during one's current lifetime. Either way, assuming karma is true, there has to be a connection and means of balance between seemingly disconnected events, hence my comment about a cosmic accountant.....which is not meant to suggest a literal little balding guy with a stack of ledgers on his desk.

I don't believe Karma or some accountant following people over life times - what actually happens is Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That - you get to be what you are. So the guy dreaming of 72 virgins in heaven will come back as a bonobo monkey, some birds or fish - get to have lots of sex - he gets what he wants - he will be in his chosen heaven.
Most people who dream of heaven - the easy life of doing nothing - will come back as pets - dog, cat, fish, pig - lots of choices

It is not a punishment - it is basically being who they are - they get to be what they are or what they want

''You are that'' still doesn't establish a connection between seemingly disconnected events, the initial act and the karmic balance that comes around in response. If there is no connection, it is not karma.

 

[Keith&Co.]

''You are that'' still doesn't establish a connection between seemingly disconnected events, the initial act and the karmic balance that comes around in response. If there is no connection, it is not karma.

Like, last week, I got a refund from my doctor's office. Turns out they double-charged me for a procedure. They sent me the bill, as my wife's insurance is through my employment, and they sent her the same bill. I just pay all the doctor bills that show up.

They figured it out and sent me the overcharge.
I can see what happened, I can appreciate the extra money. It unlooked for, so that's a plus. And, I think the insurance counts both billings towards my deductible. So, you know, bonus. it's $5.75, so it's not THAT big of a bonus, but it's better than a poke in the eye with a needle full of drugs... Which I also got last week, so I know. So, I have back the $5.75 that was inappropriately taken from me. Kind of a justice sort of thing.

At the same time, I have a wife and three kids. The home is 60% paid off. I have a decent job and just got promoted. Is there any reason to be especially grateful for any of this? Any happier? If I lost my wife and kids in a previous life, Ram would call this 'justice.' But I don't KNOW that a previous life's wife has been replaced, do I? I don't look at the house, the job, the kids, and think, "Wow, finally, Justice is served." So, since sometimes Ram describes justice in terms of the victim being happy at getting his losses restored, this can't be justice.
I mean, I'm happy, but if this is something I lost before, I don't know about it or feel happy.
Hell, I could have been a Mormon Separatist who died in 1959 in a shootout with the Feds, losing my three wives and fourteen children. I could be BEHIND the curve in this life, in comparison to my previous one.

All in all, reincarnation seems just like Heaven, apocalypse insurance, campaign promises, and the inflatable life-raft issued to each submarine. People feel better for the idea of it, but it's not really going to be terribly useful in the end.

 

[Shadowy Man]

So, then it's not justice if you get a new dog? What would justice look like in this scenario? Or maybe there is no justice in this scenario?

Basically Justice is about the victim, whereas Vengeance is about the Criminal. The criminal is tortured or killed, that does nothing for the victim.

Say a family has been saving up money for their kids education and their retirement - some criminal steals all that money. Their retirement hopes are dashed, their children's future is ruined. So finally the criminal is caught and punished - jailed, beaten, killed whatever but the money is not recovered. How does it benefit the victim? They still suffer - that is why it is not Justice - it is Vengeance

The money given back to them with interest - at that point - i am sure the family would love to just get their money back - that is justice - non-violent, peaceful - all about the victim

This is not that hard - unfortunately religions do not preach justice - they preach vengeance which satisfies our blood lust

You answered my question about a specific scenario by relating a different, uncomparable scenario. Can you address the question I had directly, please?

 

[Ramaraksha]

I don't believe Karma or some accountant following people over life times - what actually happens is Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That - you get to be what you are. So the guy dreaming of 72 virgins in heaven will come back as a bonobo monkey, some birds or fish - get to have lots of sex - he gets what he wants - he will be in his chosen heaven.
Most people who dream of heaven - the easy life of doing nothing - will come back as pets - dog, cat, fish, pig - lots of choices

It is not a punishment - it is basically being who they are - they get to be what they are or what they want

''You are that'' still doesn't establish a connection between seemingly disconnected events, the initial act and the karmic balance that comes around in response. If there is no connection, it is not karma.

sigh! not reading the post & repeating the same thing over. There is nothing coming around in response

 

[Ramaraksha]

Basically Justice is about the victim, whereas Vengeance is about the Criminal. The criminal is tortured or killed, that does nothing for the victim.

Say a family has been saving up money for their kids education and their retirement - some criminal steals all that money. Their retirement hopes are dashed, their children's future is ruined. So finally the criminal is caught and punished - jailed, beaten, killed whatever but the money is not recovered. How does it benefit the victim? They still suffer - that is why it is not Justice - it is Vengeance

The money given back to them with interest - at that point - i am sure the family would love to just get their money back - that is justice - non-violent, peaceful - all about the victim

This is not that hard - unfortunately religions do not preach justice - they preach vengeance which satisfies our blood lust

You answered my question about a specific scenario by relating a different, uncomparable scenario. Can you address the question I had directly, please?

Come on, this is not rocket science - one has to understand the concept

If you ran over a picket fence, would you have 1) the big owner come out and give you a beating?
or 2) pay for fixing the fence?
One is uncivilized and the other is Civilized - that's the difference between Vengeance and Justice

Justice is about the victim - if your dog is run over - not only have you lost a loving friend, you have lost the opportunity to shower your love on a friend
The criminal who did that getting a beating or jailed does not help you
Getting a new Dog is justice - it won't bring back your loving friend but at least you get the opportunity to shower your love on your new friend and that is what a lot of people recommend doing for those owners who have lost their pet

There are only so many examples that i can give - i keep drawing a picture and keep being amazed that this concept is that hard to understand

 

[Ramaraksha]

Hell, I could have been a Mormon Separatist who died in 1959 in a shootout with the Feds, losing my three wives and fourteen children. I could be BEHIND the curve in this life, in comparison to my previous one.

All in all, reincarnation seems just like Heaven, apocalypse insurance, campaign promises, and the inflatable life-raft issued to each submarine. People feel better for the idea of it, but it's not really going to be terribly useful in the end.

aaaah! run for the hills!
You just get a new life! That's all! Stop thinking you are owed something in the past life! You are not getting a better life in this life because of something that has happened in the previous life - that's not what is happening.

There is no magic accountant sitting in the sky and adding up your debits and credits! God is not an accountant - you are not owed anything from the previous life, nor are you punished in this life - again if you are punished or rewarded because of something bad or good that you did in the past life, that would be Vengeance, not justice

Over and over, if you did something bad and got punished for it, that is vengeance, not justice

This kid's life got cut short - if she chooses she gets a do-over, that's all! She doesn't get to be a princess in this life!
In fact, she may get a worse life - she had a loving family in this life - in her next life maybe not so loving family - it's just luck of the draw

 

[Ramaraksha]

So, this philosopher once said:

Buying a new toy for the friend coming out of your kids allowance is justice -

Justice SEEMS to include punishment of the criminal.
But elsewhere, this same philosopher says that justice has NOTHING to do with the criminal.
But then, goes back to saying every action has consequences and this NEEDS to happen to criminals, as part of the effort to describe what Justice is, and why reincarnation is better...
Can you really not see why i find it confusing?

posts like this make me question the adult in you - i am telling what a parent might do to teach his kid a lesson - some may choose not to take the new toy's cost out of their kids allowance, but the most important thing is that the other kid gets his toy back - he is made happy - he is made whole again - that is what Justice is all about

If you were to run over a fence - would you have 1)the big burly owner come out and give you a beating which lands you in the hospital
or
2)get taken to court and pay for a new fence?

One is Uncivilized and the other is Civilized - ideas like Vengeance, an eye-for-an-eye came out of uncivilized times - shows when religions like Christianity came about - when times were very violent - they came up with violent solutions

The fact that you think that in both cases you suffer equally is horrible. There is a difference between the two - one does nothing for the victim - he didn't get his fence back, in the other no one gets hurt and he got his fence back - that is justice

 

[abaddon]

Ramaraksha,

If a person ran over someone's fence I would expect the courts, IN THIS LIFETIME, to require him to replace the owner's fence (justice) and also otherwise help him regret the mindlessness that created the problem for everyone involved (punishment).

Notice that punishment isn't necessarily violent. Something needs to be done -- in his current lifetime, while his awareness is still there -- to help the toy-breaker or murderer or whoever to regret his mistake so, hopefully, he'll work at whatever's wrong with him. At the least, to pressure him to not make the mistake again.

--------------------------

Getting reborn does nothing for the victim (or the perpetrator) if they don't remember the former life. Reincarnation does nothing at all to compensate a person for being murdered, or compensate a sad mother, if they don't know they're reincarnated.

Now you're calling reincarnation a "luck of the draw" which strips all the justice from it that, earlier in the thread, you were arguing for. If it's a crapshoot what happens to a person, there's no justice being done for whatever wrongs they suffered. The justice has to be specific to what wrong was done or it isn't justice.

If a dog is run over, buying or adopting a new dog can be done in full awareness IN THIS LIFETIME. So reincarnation isn't just an optional idea here but bizarre and unhelpful deadweight of an idea.

Nobody gets a new life if they don't know it's new. Because if they don't know it is new, then it's not THEIR life. The line is broken if their memory is broken. It's just an entirely different, non-reincarnated life. And so there's no compensation ("justice") for what was lost. Can you understand that?

If others don't understand your point clearly it's because it is not a clear point, which is your fault and not theirs. (So don't get reborn as a "lower" animal for not grabbing the opportunity, now in THIS lifetime, to learn to think this through and clarify your mind.)

--------------------------

Hell (when taken literally and not psychologically) is the wrong answer as punishment for anything. But Heaven isn't all that unjust of a reward. I'm actually admiring this metaphor better now, after your thread. You misrepresent the Christian's imagination of it so badly that it moved me to rethink it, as a metaphor. Frankly I don't see a problem with a rapist and his victim sharing heaven together. Since that's the ultimate idealization of love, when enmity is totally overcome.

You had to simplify heaven into just being a continuation of the kind of lives that are filled with strife and enmity in order to make it seem terribly unjust.

Reincarnation is useless blather in the way that you use it as a means of unconscious "justice". And what I understand from reading about Advaita's "thou are that" is it's a negation of the self as the "me" and all its wants. "You are that" means "you aren't you". So (in this line of thought) you're part of the stream of life and not an isolate self. That means "thou art that" is not an affirmation that you can have whatever you want (and if not in this life then in the next) the way you portray it.

 

[Ramaraksha]

I see "You are That" differently - Hindus have known for a long time about becoming animals - they thought it as some sort of punishment - bad things happening to you because you did something wrong in the past - but that is vengeance, not justice - an eye for an eye
What Hindus were saying - if that is who you are & that is what you want, then so be it - since human life does not seem to suit you, cannot give you the easy life that you want, maybe a lower form of life may suit you better. It is wilful choice you made

As for Heaven, I just don't see a magic being keeping billions and by now trillions of people just sitting around doing nothing. It is a fantasy - the weak running away from life and religions happy to exploit it. Pray tell, what does one DO in Heaven? What jobs are available in heaven? So we have billions and trillions of people snoring away?

As for the victim and the criminal sharing heaven - as a victim - a child raped and murdered - wouldn't she wonder why her criminal got to taste life, grow up, college, a job, fall in love, marriage - in fact all the joys of life while she was denied it? Glad that you see Hell for what it is - a sick, disgusting view - pray tell, so the criminal who raped this little girl gets heaven then? So what happened to this punishment you were supporting? And what happened to the Justice to this kid? You say you agree with justice - but your heaven and hell doesn't even address the victim at all

"help him regret the mindlessness that created the problem for everyone involved (punishment)" ha - are we the same people who say just repent, nice God will forgive and off to Heaven we go? Not only did the guy not get punished the poor victim never got any justice at all!

You didn't realize the punishment is there - as they say every problem contains its own solution. Tat Tvam Asi - a blackened soul comes back as a lower form of life

If you make a mistake, there is no one to nicely tell you that you made a mistake - at some point you have to understand what to do, how to behave. If you see someone talking loudly in a public place, that person has to learn on his own what he did - there is no one going around telling him what he is doing is wrong

It's like being in class - some classes will be bad, others will be good but we progress, we grow as people based on our experiences - we may not be aware of all our experiences but they are there in our subconsciousness. You talk about not remembering - do you remember your childhood? The classes you have taken? We have forgotten most of what we aced as kids - does that mean they were a waste of our time?

"Heaven isn't all that unjust of a reward" reward - that is such a wrong word - so sorry you had to struggle thru life, now you get to sit and take it easy for eternity in God's retirement home?
See my - my answer to steve jobs coming back as a chinese worker hahaha - this is ALL there is. It's either life or nothing. There is no reward in the sky, no heaven or hell in the sky. Just primitive ideas, that's all

Heaven is here, hell is here, you get the life you want right here

Hinduism doesn't preach rewards - that is a slave word, a servant word - We are to be Gods! Follow in the footsteps of our Father as any Child would. That's a whole another story

 

[Ramaraksha]

Abaddon

My turn to ask questions:

So you agree there is no hell - God is no Torturer, no Hitler - so what happens to the criminal who raped and killed the little girl? Heaven? The same as the poor child?
And when did he get to repay the child? And get any punishment?
We have so much terrorism today - so all those mass murderers enjoying heaven now?
What about the pedophile priests - same?
Nazis? Same?
So basically do whatever you want, kill murder, rape - we all get heaven?

I mean, religions like Christianity and islam do not even mention the victim! The confab is between the criminal and God & God nicely will forgive the criminal! How nice for him! The victim gets twice-raped!

You talk so much about justice and punishment yet none of that is offered by the above religions. Hinduism does not preach punishment - only Justice