Religions do not teach Justice & yet no one points it out

[sharon45]

Is Hitler burning in Hell? How does it help his victims? It doesn't.

Not that I subscribe to such practices, but the image of an extremely vivid punishment is to help keep others from being made into future victims. It is just a small part from the messy search of competent deterrents for would-be criminals in society.

Justice lifts up the oppressed, whereas Vengeance brings down the oppressor to a lower level

True accountability raises everyone, but figuring out the correct quantity is a wiry puzzle.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Not that I subscribe to such practices, but the image of an extremely vivid punishment is to help keep others from being made into future victims. It is just a small part from the messy search of competent deterrents for would-be criminals in society.

Justice lifts up the oppressed, whereas Vengeance brings down the oppressor to a lower level

True accountability raises everyone, but figuring out the correct quantity is a wiry puzzle.

It's barbaric - in some muslim countries today the punishments are much harsher than just going to jail - back in the day they used to do much worse - thieves would get their hands cut off - did that stop thievery? of course not

A gang member is killed & in retaliation the other gang kills theirs - and we enter into a cycle of violence that reaches beyond just these two gangs

If you are a parent, diligently saving money for your retirement and kids education & some guy robs you off all the money, saying kill that guy will stop future robberies? But how did that benefit you? You are out of retirement, your kids future is ruined. No one says that the criminal must get away with it - but the concept of hell simply says that the criminal should suffer, says nothing about the victim being compensated for his or her loss. They completely ignore the victim - but these are religions whose focus is on conversions - as my cartoon shows, they talk from both sides of their mouth

Hell focuses on the criminal, Reincarnation on the Victim

Justice is Civilized, Vengeance is Uncivilized

I believe there is actually a movie by Hollywood back in the day - The man who shot Liberty Valance, that tries Justice instead of brainless violence and Vengeance

 

[DBT]

You appeared to miss the point the first time and now you appear to be avoiding it altogether. Your response did not address the issue I pointed out then, nor does it now. If you can't deal with it, fine, I won't press you again.

My answer is the same as with Keith - i am not explaining E=Mc2 - these are simple ideas - it should not be that difficult
As they say one can take a horse to water, but cannot make it drink
I can't make you drink the water

Justice is when the victim is made whole, Vengeance is violence against the criminal - these words should be enough for anyone to understand. Hell is violence, not justice. Forgiveness does nothing for the victim, that is not justice either & i think that might be a problem here - going against established religious ideas

You may believe that your 'explanation' shows a connection between the wrong and the balancing out through karma, but it does no such thing. You have not established a causal link between an action and karmic balance or explained how this link between events is possibly established. That is the point you need to explain, but have not done. As it is, you are just repeating your original claim in various ways.

 

[sharon45]

Not that I subscribe to such practices, but the image of an extremely vivid punishment is to help keep others from being made into future victims. It is just a small part from the messy search of competent deterrents for would-be criminals in society.

It's barbaric - in some muslim countries today the punishments are much harsher than just going to jail - back in the day they used to do much worse - thieves would get their hands cut off - did that stop thievery? of course not

It is not meant to completely stop it, but attempt to deter it from happening more or as much.

If you are a parent, diligently saving money for your retirement and kids education & some guy robs you off all the money,
saying kill that guy will stop future robberies?

Again, it is a deterrent, and death is not usually a punishment for just robbery.

But how did that benefit you? You are out of retirement, your kids future is ruined. No one says that the criminal must get away with it - but the concept of hell simply says that the criminal should suffer, says nothing about the victim being compensated for his or her loss.

Hell is an invention from the NT about God's wrath.

Hell focuses on the criminal, Reincarnation on the Victim

With the Christian god in play, both are victims.

 

[Keith&Co.]

As far as I can tell, the only one with established religious ideas is you...

Pretty much.
Just like so many Christain apologists, his one single explanation is just repeated and repeated.
And like so many apologists, any difficulty in transmitting the idea is blamed on the listener.
Any criticism of his idea is 'you just don't get it!'

And he thinks an analogy or an example is a definition.

 

[Ramaraksha]

My answer is the same as with Keith - i am not explaining E=Mc2 - these are simple ideas - it should not be that difficult
As they say one can take a horse to water, but cannot make it drink
I can't make you drink the water

Justice is when the victim is made whole, Vengeance is violence against the criminal - these words should be enough for anyone to understand. Hell is violence, not justice. Forgiveness does nothing for the victim, that is not justice either & i think that might be a problem here - going against established religious ideas

You may believe that your 'explanation' shows a connection between the wrong and the balancing out through karma, but it does no such thing. You have not established a causal link between an action and karmic balance or explained how this link between events is possibly established. That is the point you need to explain, but have not done. As it is, you are just repeating your original claim in various ways.

What? One of the reasons i started doing cartoons is that no one reads anymore - there is no Karmic balancing, no magic being accounting sitting in the sky and adding your debits and credits - you have the wrong view of Karma
Karma is a Sanskrit word - it means Action - that's it - the kid who doesn't study finds he gets a D or an F, & the kid who studies gets an A
You drive your car fast on wet roads, you might have an accident - that is karma - it is not something unseen or magic hand - simply that your actions have consequences, that's all

Tat Tvam Asi is usually mistaken for Karma - but they work very differently

 

[Ramaraksha]

As far as I can tell, the only one with established religious ideas is you...

Pretty much.
Just like so many Christain apologists, his one single explanation is just repeated and repeated.
And like so many apologists, any difficulty in transmitting the idea is blamed on the listener.
Any criticism of his idea is 'you just don't get it!'

And he thinks an analogy or an example is a definition.

Unfortunately you started making up all kinds of stuff and basically expected me to give you an answer that YOU thought made sense - i can't do that, no one can

Maybe i can ask you a question that you can answer - this kid is told to go get something by his dad. he wants to take the car, but his father tells him to take the bike. He is riding the bike, on a wet part he slips, then a cat almost runs into his path, the tries to avoid that cat, meanwhile superman and the flash are having a race, their tailwind knocks this kid around, at the same time, the sun bursts a little causing the earth to tilt a little, causing the kid to lose control even more and he crashes into an old lady. The old lady was robbing a bank and the kid is hailed as a hero but the old lay takes him to court. You are the judge - tell me should the kid be punished for harming the old lady? or is it the cat? the wet road? Superman? the flash? the sun? the earth? the father for not giving him the car?

Those were some of the questions that you came up with and grandly sat back and mocked me for not having an answer and even when i gave you an answer, you simply dismissed it. Please give me an answer so that i can do the same

 

[Ramaraksha]

It's barbaric - in some muslim countries today the punishments are much harsher than just going to jail - back in the day they used to do much worse - thieves would get their hands cut off - did that stop thievery? of course not

It is not meant to completely stop it, but attempt to deter it from happening more or as much.

If you are a parent, diligently saving money for your retirement and kids education & some guy robs you off all the money,
saying kill that guy will stop future robberies?

Again, it is a deterrent, and death is not usually a punishment for just robbery.

But how did that benefit you? You are out of retirement, your kids future is ruined. No one says that the criminal must get away with it - but the concept of hell simply says that the criminal should suffer, says nothing about the victim being compensated for his or her loss.

Hell is an invention from the NT about God's wrath.

Hell focuses on the criminal, Reincarnation on the Victim

With the Christian god in play, both are victims.

First i haven't seen any deterrents for the likes of Madoff - i watch on TV - lots of people have done these kinds of ponzi-schemes. Are you saying we are not punishing them enough - cut off madoff's ears or hands? is that where we are going? As i said Hell or vengeance is uncivilized

And where does it end? we have terrorism today because they think they are right - they think we targeted them and so they are justified in killing us. We hear so much about the kids who were killed in Boston or France when that guy drove over innocent people with his truck but we don't hear much about drone killings in the middle east or other bombings - not saying we are wrong but one can see how vengeance will never end - it will only keep getting worse for everyone

So, tomorrow God forbid one of your friends is killed by terrorist, would you say it is a good thing - it will prevent us from killing them in return? We are at fault?

- - - Updated - - -

It's barbaric - in some muslim countries today the punishments are much harsher than just going to jail - back in the day they used to do much worse - thieves would get their hands cut off - did that stop thievery? of course not

It is not meant to completely stop it, but attempt to deter it from happening more or as much.

If you are a parent, diligently saving money for your retirement and kids education & some guy robs you off all the money,
saying kill that guy will stop future robberies?

Again, it is a deterrent, and death is not usually a punishment for just robbery.

But how did that benefit you? You are out of retirement, your kids future is ruined. No one says that the criminal must get away with it - but the concept of hell simply says that the criminal should suffer, says nothing about the victim being compensated for his or her loss.

Hell is an invention from the NT about God's wrath.

Hell focuses on the criminal, Reincarnation on the Victim

With the Christian god in play, both are victims.

First i haven't seen any deterrents for the likes of Madoff - i watch on TV - lots of people have done these kinds of ponzi-schemes. Are you saying we are not punishing them enough - cut off madoff's ears or hands? is that where we are going? As i said Hell or vengeance is uncivilized

And where does it end? we have terrorism today because they think they are right - they think we targeted them and so they are justified in killing us. We hear so much about the kids who were killed in Boston or France when that guy drove over innocent people with his truck but we don't hear much about drone killings in the middle east or other bombings - not saying we are wrong but one can see how vengeance will never end - it will only keep getting worse for everyone

So, tomorrow God forbid one of your friends is killed by terrorist, would you say it is a good thing - it will prevent us from killing them in return? We are at fault?

 

[J842P]

As far as I can tell, the only one with established religious ideas is you...

Faith, not Religion, and i didn't realize it was a crime. What did your post achieve except for letting off steam? And oh i forgot, snap, this forum is titled - General Religion

In your case, there is not distinction between faith and religion - you have faith in your religion. You are here preaching your religion, curiously, by criticizing Christianity and Islam. You claim that these religions don't care about justice, but about vengeance. That probably isn't a controversial statement for most people here. But then, you say your Hindu beliefs about reincarnation do give justice instead of vengeance. Some people are challenging you on that regard, not by *defending Christianity/Islam*, but by challenging your beliefs about reincarnation specifically.

Perhaps Hinduism is merely the opiate - it tells the people a nice, yet false, story about reincarnation and that there is ultimately justice. This gives people peace, because humans are bothered by the idea that there is no ultimate justice, but there isn't. The only justice that can exist is that which is provided by people. Justice is often never obtained.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Faith, not Religion, and i didn't realize it was a crime. What did your post achieve except for letting off steam? And oh i forgot, snap, this forum is titled - General Religion

In your case, there is not distinction between faith and religion - you have faith in your religion. You are here preaching your religion, curiously, by criticizing Christianity and Islam. You claim that these religions don't care about justice, but about vengeance. That probably isn't a controversial statement for most people here. But then, you say your Hindu beliefs about reincarnation do give justice instead of vengeance. Some people are challenging you on that regard, not by *defending Christianity/Islam*, but by challenging your beliefs about reincarnation specifically.

Perhaps Hinduism is merely the opiate - it tells the people a nice, yet false, story about reincarnation and that there is ultimately justice. This gives people peace, because humans are bothered by the idea that there is no ultimate justice, but there isn't. The only justice that can exist is that which is provided by people. Justice is often never obtained.

Um, that is what a forum is for? Again the 2nd time you seem to misunderstand what is going on

The concept of Reincarnation applies to all - "Hindus" came up with the idea or to put it more correctly people living in the the present day India of so long ago, came up with these ideas. These ideas apply to all - not just Hindus. The Buddha taught Compassion, anyone can practice it, not just Buddhists

The problem is that religions like Christianity and Islam - (you are right, i am no fan of these religions - to me they are primitive religions - cheap religions that make easy promises of easy life in the sky and force conversions by shutting everyone out - nothing remarkable about them) have managed to preach division and hatred so much, you hear any new idea and you get your defenses up

When did i say that Reincarnation cannot be challenged? That is how one grows, one gets better - i have learned a lot from people who have disagreed with me - but just like the people who disagree have a different point of view, so do I. We hope to discuss and see if we can make sense. But if you are a christian and been told endlessly or brainwashed basically to believe that only christian ideas are right, all other ideas are wrong, then you react just like you have

In the case of the child who was murdered - she didn't get to grow up, have a life - movies, school, hanging out with friends, college, a career, marriage, a family, kids - all the joys of life that we have been lucky to have - she didn't get. Only Reincarnation, a new life, can make up for that, Heaven cannot

This isn't rocket science - quite simple ideas. But once you start saying this is a "Hindu" idea - like a woman is speaking, dismiss her, or a black guy is talking why is he not staying silent - that kind of mentality is what we suffer from, then negative reaction is the result

 

[sharon45]

First i haven't seen any deterrents for the likes of Madoff - i watch on TV - lots of people have done these kinds of ponzi-schemes.

An example I can give is one shoplifter in a store among tens or even hundreds of regular patrons. Now, if shoplifting was not a punishable crime, most likely that former ratio would dramatically change.

As i said Hell or vengeance is uncivilized

Yes, I agree that Hell is extremely vulgar, but vengeance is not necessarily so. Again, people have different ideas of what vengeance is. It needs to be taken up and gone through on a case by case basis.

And where does it end? we have terrorism today because they think they are right - they think we targeted them and so they are justified in killing us. We hear so much about the kids who were killed in Boston or France when that guy drove over innocent people with his truck but we don't hear much about drone killings in the middle east or other bombings - not saying we are wrong but one can see how vengeance will never end - it will only keep getting worse for everyone

Yet these terrorist attacks are still comparatively rare, and a reason for this could easily be that the perpetrators are relentlessly hunted down and killed or imprisoned.

 

[sharon45]

In the case of the child who was murdered - she didn't get to grow up, have a life - movies, school, hanging out with friends, college, a career, marriage, a family, kids - all the joys of life that we have been lucky to have - she didn't get. Only Reincarnation, a new life, can make up for that, Heaven cannot

If she was simply brought back to life, that could be a form of justice, but this is a totally different person, and mostly because there is no memory of the past life.

 

[DBT]

You may believe that your 'explanation' shows a connection between the wrong and the balancing out through karma, but it does no such thing. You have not established a causal link between an action and karmic balance or explained how this link between events is possibly established. That is the point you need to explain, but have not done. As it is, you are just repeating your original claim in various ways.

What? One of the reasons i started doing cartoons is that no one reads anymore - there is no Karmic balancing, no magic being accounting sitting in the sky and adding your debits and credits - you have the wrong view of Karma
Karma is a Sanskrit word - it means Action - that's it - the kid who doesn't study finds he gets a D or an F, & the kid who studies gets an A
You drive your car fast on wet roads, you might have an accident - that is karma - it is not something unseen or magic hand - simply that your actions have consequences, that's all

Tat Tvam Asi is usually mistaken for Karma - but they work very differently

You are not describing karma. You are describing physics. Macro scale cause and effect. Why even call that karma?

 

[Ramaraksha]

What? One of the reasons i started doing cartoons is that no one reads anymore - there is no Karmic balancing, no magic being accounting sitting in the sky and adding your debits and credits - you have the wrong view of Karma
Karma is a Sanskrit word - it means Action - that's it - the kid who doesn't study finds he gets a D or an F, & the kid who studies gets an A
You drive your car fast on wet roads, you might have an accident - that is karma - it is not something unseen or magic hand - simply that your actions have consequences, that's all
Tat Tvam Asi is usually mistaken for Karma - but they work very differently

You are not describing karma. You are describing physics. Macro scale cause and effect. Why even call that karma?

???? What you call a chair we call it Kurchi.

Also which came first? Just because Karma is associated with religion no need to put it down - take the idea for what it is

Fact is that in ancient times, ideas got lost - not like today where you can save it on computers and on the internet and it lives forever. But back then, how many great ideas might have died with their inventors?

What the ancients needed was a medium - a medium that would keep their ideas alive for a long, long time! Guess what they did? They chose religion! Brilliant!

 

[Ramaraksha]

In the case of the child who was murdered - she didn't get to grow up, have a life - movies, school, hanging out with friends, college, a career, marriage, a family, kids - all the joys of life that we have been lucky to have - she didn't get. Only Reincarnation, a new life, can make up for that, Heaven cannot

If she was simply brought back to life, that could be a form of justice, but this is a totally different person, and mostly because there is no memory of the past life.

Aaaah don't get this insistence on having a memory, lol

Are you saying justice is done only if the recipient knows the reason?

Think of a mother who lost her child - raped & killed, accident due to driver carelessness whatever. Yes she feels bad about losing her kid but as she watches her kids friends grow up and say get married, she must wonder why her kid lost out, she didn't get to watch her child get married but that is less painful than realizing that her kid never got to enjoy what these other kids got to - marriage, a career, kids - the joys of life

What Hinduism is saying is that this body is like a set of clothes that you put on in this life - there is a "you" that is not this body, this brain & it is this "you" that gets a new life, if you choose that is and that is what people don't understand. Reincarnation is not a necessity, you don't have to come back, people choose to check out, run after fantasy lands where the living is easy, alas they find themselves back as pets - cats and dogs

 

[Ramaraksha]

An example I can give is one shoplifter in a store among tens or even hundreds of regular patrons. Now, if shoplifting was not a punishable crime, most likely that former ratio would dramatically change.

No one is saying that the perpetrator should get away - but putting the person in jail is not justice - not yet - so far it is vengeance - Justice is when the victim is made whole ie the purse that was stolen from you is returned to you. Reading that the criminal got caught and is now in jail is little satisfaction to you if you do not get your purse back

Similarly those who were cheated by Madoff find some comfort in knowing he is sitting in jail but is it justice when they have to choose between food and medicine in their old age? That is what the dominant religions offer - Madoff will be punished in hell or maybe not if he repents he gets to enjoy heaven. But of course, they won't say the latter to his victims

Justice is when these senior citizens, retired and now unable to work, get their money back with interest. If they get that, do they really care whether Madoff is punished or not? I don't think they will care. The fact is that the pain of losing their life savings, having to do without, engenders hate and anger and they are happy to see Madoff suffering in prison. Other primitive countries go further - it satisfies our bloodlust - Hollywood loves it

That is what Reincarnation offers - you get back the life that was once stolen from you - Justice

 

[sharon45]

If she was simply brought back to life, that could be a form of justice, but this is a totally different person, and mostly because there is no memory of the past life.

Aaaah don't get this insistence on having a memory, lol

Are you saying justice is done only if the recipient knows the reason?

It is based on some of your earlier descriptions. Sure, the girl comes back, as whatever, but who she was is almost entirely lost, save a few that declare a couple sparkles of a supposed past life event. Using your definition of justice, it sounds more like another loose form of cold physics as DBT pointed out above.

 

[sharon45]

An example I can give is one shoplifter in a store among tens or even hundreds of regular patrons. Now, if shoplifting was not a punishable crime, most likely that former ratio would dramatically change.

No one is saying that the perpetrator should get away - but putting the person in jail is not justice - not yet - so far it is vengeance

But this is you saying this, and others respectfully disagree.

Justice is when the victim is made whole ie the purse that was stolen from you is returned to you.

Yet as I have already pointed out, it is honestly not, and mainly because of the sorry lack of memory to greatly help continue the person's natural growth through its worthy guidance.

Reading that the criminal got caught and is now in jail is little satisfaction to you if you do not get your purse back

Ah, but in many cases one does so-called get the purse back, and the criminal still has to be sent to jail in order to separate him from the normal population for time spent in needed shame and reflection. As I illustrated above, this punishment is also largely to stop others from considering much the same illicit behavior.

Justice is when these senior citizens, retired and now unable to work, get their money back with interest. If they get that, do they really care whether Madoff is punished or not?

See above.

 

[Ramaraksha]

Aaaah don't get this insistence on having a memory, lol

Are you saying justice is done only if the recipient knows the reason?

It is based on some of your earlier descriptions. Sure, the girl comes back, as whatever, but who she was is almost entirely lost, save a few that declare a couple sparkles of a supposed past life event. Using your definition of justice, it sounds more like another loose form of cold physics as DBT pointed out above.

Again - justice is when you get what you lost back - it operates independently of whether you remember or not. How is it justice if you remember and not if you don't? That is a strange thing to say. Justice says you were robbed of something, you get it back, that is justice - does not depend on an individual remembering what happened

A child starts crying when he loses his fav toy. You give him a new one and he stops crying and totally forgets the loss - that is justice. Suppose that said toy was stolen - does putting that thief in jail help the kid? Will it make him stop crying knowing the thief is in jail? One could say putting that thief in jail is part of justice but it is not complete until the kid gets a new toy and is made whole again. In fact, true justice is when the thief returns the toy or buys the kid a new one - that is Reincarnation. You made a mess, you must come back and clean it up, don't leave it for others

In Christianity that is what is encouraged. Cry a few croc tears of remorse - something you didn't do when you were alive - and nice God will forgive and off you go enjoy heaven!
Those are horrible morals

I get the part of making it hurtful so that people will stop bad behavior - you don't speed because you don't want a ticket, a bad driving record. But have you noticed how punishments were much harsher in the past? How they are much much harsher in primitive countries?

 

[Ramaraksha]

Yet as I have already pointed out, it is honestly not, and mainly because of the sorry lack of memory to greatly help continue the person's natural growth through its worthy guidance.

Not saying you are wrong, but the idea in Hinduism is that one should do something good because one feels like it, not because one feels obligated. Basically as you watch TV or some other - you get involved with certain things - like say i love animals - i volunteer at an animal shelter - why is that? Why not volunteer at a soup kitchen? Delivering meals for the elderly

Basically it is my past life - this is who i am - it is that Tat Tvam Asi - You Are That - the guy who dreams of 72 virgins, since he is all about sex - will come back as a bonobo monkey. All these christians and muslims dreaming of heaven might come back as pets - dogs, cats - they get their wish

My fav book is James Herriott's - All Creatures Great and Small - in this life i missed my chance at becoming a vet - but maybe in my next?