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“Revolution in Thought: A new look at determinism and free will"

Roemer’s hypothesis: sight is not instantaneous!

This is so easy to understand, peacegirl, and it means your author’s instantaneous seeing hypothesis is simply untrue.
It really doesn't. It looks like there is no other explanation possible for light to take longer to get here at certain times of the year other than distance and time, but this is circumstantial. I will never be able to convince anyone here or anywhere on the internet that the author's observations are just as possible as the present version of sight.

The distance of the moon is regularly measured using laser beams reflected from an instrument left on the moon for that purpose.
This does not in any way disprove that we see in real time. This is not magic. Light travels, and there is a finite speed that has been measured definitively.

Yes. And it is measured because of the delay in getting to our eye when the source is farther away, which disproves real-time seeing, because if real-time seeing were true, we would see the source instantly, no matter how far away it was. :rolleyes: This is such elementary reasoning I find it shocking you cannot grasp it. The only thing I can figure is that you REFUSE to grasp it.
Yes, we would see the source (i.e., matter) because the light is there for us to see it. You are thinking that the source is long gone and all we see are images in the brain. WRONG. I can say the same thing: This is such elementary reasoning I find it shocking you cannot grasp it. The only thing I can figure is that you REFUSE to grasp it. See? 😯

Grasp what??? We already SHOWED you how NASA calculates trajectories to Mars and other celestial bodies! They do it based on DELAYED SEEING. When you see Mars in the sky at night, that is NOT where it actually is!
I don't see where delayed seeing is part of how NASA calculates trajectories. The only thing that Lessans needed to demonstrate were his observations and whether they held weight. There is a definite conflict here, and it will not be solved in this thread. I also don't think that stellar aberration conflicts with seeing in real time. This one phenomenon doesn't mess up all of astronomy, cosmology, and physics, which you seem to believe.

Stellar aberration is the phenomenon whereby the observed angular position of a star depends on the relative motion between the star and Earth. Specifically, a telescope must be tilted slightly into the direction of motion of Earth relative to the star. There are in fact three different angular positions of interest: the observed position of the star from Earth, the actual position of the star (at the instant of observation) as measured using Earth’s clocks and rulers, and the actual position of the star (relative to Earth) as measured using the star’s clocks and rulers. Clear diagrams show that none of these three angular positions are in general equal to each other, and help explain why the effect in practice depends only on Earth’s motion and not on the star’s motion, in apparent violation of the relativity of motion.


 
Roemer’s hypothesis: sight is not instantaneous!

This is so easy to understand, peacegirl, and it means your author’s instantaneous seeing hypothesis is simply untrue.
It really doesn't. It looks like there is no other explanation possible for light to take longer to get here at certain times of the year other than distance and time, but this is circumstantial. I will never be able to convince anyone here or anywhere on the internet that the author's observations are just as possible as the present version of sight.

The distance of the moon is regularly measured using laser beams reflected from an instrument left on the moon for that purpose.
This does not in any way disprove that we see in real time. This is not magic. Light travels, and there is a finite speed that has been measured definitively.
Of course it does! We went over this again and again with you at FF! You bounce a laser off the moon, there is DELAY in it returning to earth! I believe it is about 1.3 seconds, meaning we always see the moon roughly as it was just over a second in the past.
Objects, like the moon, do not send out images (or information) in delayed time. The laser is a measurement of how long it takes for the laser to reach the moon and back to earth, which is approximately 1.3 seconds, but we do not see the moon 1.3 seconds in the past. A camera is a different story. It sends us footage of the moon that is then transmitted through space, which takes time.



We see the light that is reflected from the moon, the very light that takes time to reach our eyes.

The moon is matter. We see the moon because of light. I know you don't believe that if the brain and eyes are efferent (i.e., looking out), we would see the moon as long as the moon's reflection was bright enough for us to see it—without the light being delayed through time. I think it's about time that this aspect of the thread is over. I'm sorry if I caused cognitive dissonance. That was not my intention. In the end, people can believe whatever they want.
 
Roemer’s hypothesis: sight is not instantaneous!

This is so easy to understand, peacegirl, and it means your author’s instantaneous seeing hypothesis is simply untrue.
It really doesn't. It looks like there is no other explanation possible for light to take longer to get here at certain times of the year other than distance and time, but this is circumstantial. I will never be able to convince anyone here or anywhere on the internet that the author's observations are just as possible as the present version of sight.

The distance of the moon is regularly measured using laser beams reflected from an instrument left on the moon for that purpose.
This does not in any way disprove that we see in real time. This is not magic. Light travels, and there is a finite speed that has been measured definitively.
Of course it does! We went over this again and again with you at FF! You bounce a laser off the moon, there is DELAY in it returning to earth! I believe it is about 1.3 seconds, meaning we always see the moon roughly as it was just over a second in the past.
Objects, like the moon, do not send out images (or information) in delayed time. The laser is a measurement of how long it takes for the laser to reach the moon and back to earth, which is approximately 1.3 seconds, but we do not see the moon 1.3 seconds in the past. A camera is a different story. It sends us footage of the moon that is then transmitted through space, which takes time.



We see the light that is reflected from the moon, the very light that takes time to reach our eyes.

The moon is matter. We see the moon because of light. I know you don't believe that if the brain and eyes are efferent (i.e., looking out), we would see the moon as long as the moon's reflection was bright enough for us to see it—without the light being delayed through time. I think it's about time that this aspect of the thread is over. I'm sorry if I caused cognitive dissonance. That was not my intention. In the end, people can believe whatever they want.


What happens when the moon goes through its phases and we see only part of the moon brightly lit by the sun? Isn’t it clear that it is sunlight reflecting from the moon?
 
I will never be able to convince anyone here or anywhere on the internet that the author's observations are just as possible as the present version of sight.
Well, at least you are not wrong about that.

Your problem is that you don't seem able to grasp that you cannot persude people that it is possible, because it is impossible.

Really, what else could cause your inability here? Are you seriously suggesting that literally everybody except you is out of step?
Yes. If science says something is correct, people, not knowing what to believe, will agree with whatever science tells us.
Actually, they DON’T. Science tells us (and YOU) that vaccines work, because the evidence SHOWS that they work. And here you are, an anti-vaxxer! Vaccines banished smallpox, measles, polio, and greatly mitigated Covid, and all of that will COME BACK if the moron you voted for and his lackey RFK Jr., get their way. Want to see your grandkids get polio, peacegirl? Do you have any idea how devastating that is? Probably not, because it is a thing of the past, because of vaccines! Derp!

Like your writer, most people are scientifically illiterate, and will believe whatever makes them feel good at a given moment.
I didn't say all vaccines were bad, but there is risk involved and therefore should never be mandated. It has to be up to the parent. I was concerned about the DPT vaccine when my kids were little. Pertussis was of concern after I read an article that the nonstop crying of a young child is a warning to never give him a second shot. Kids get so many shots in combination that it behooves researchers to carefully check for safety, not just efficacy. Adverse effects could come later, which they don't follow up on. This is a problem.

Parents have come to depend on vaccines to protect their children from a variety of diseases. Some evidence suggests, however, that vaccination against pertussis (whooping cough) and rubella (German measles) is, in a small number of cases, associated with increased risk of serious illness.

This book examines the controversy over the evidence and offers a comprehensively documented assessment of the risk of illness following immunization with vaccines against pertussis and rubella. Based on extensive review of the evidence from epidemiologic studies, case histories, studies in animals, and other sources of information, the book examines:

*The relation of pertussis vaccines to a number of serious adverse events, including encephalopathy and other central nervous system disorders, sudden infant death syndrome, autism, Guillain-Barre syndrome, learning disabilities, and Reye syndrome.

The relation of rubella vaccines to arthritis, various neuropathies, and thrombocytopenic purpura.
The volume, which includes a description of the committee's methods for evaluating evidence and directions for future research, will be important reading for public health officials, pediatricians, researchers, and concerned parents.



Why did you bring this up? To make me look bad? Is that not a little underhanded, Pood? Are you running out of things in your toolbox to attack me with? I've also told you that Lessans did not come to these findings from astronomy. You show no interest in his demonstration. You said that when someone calls another fat, he gets conditioned, which has nothing to do with light and sight. That is incorrect. It involves words and how they are projected, which causes this conditioning to see what does not exist. Lessans explains correctly how this takes place. No other sense can be conditioned.

Someone can tell me 100 times how delicious liver is (for example) and I will disagree because my taste buds don’t like it no matter how many times I try. We can acquire a taste for some things as we get older but this is not the same thing as being conditioned to like what we don’t like because taste is a sense organ.

Someone can tell me how wonderful a perfume smells but if I don’t like the smell, I cannot be conditioned to like it because the olfactory system is a sense organ.

Someone can tell me that classical music is amazing but if it bores me, I cannot be conditioned to like it no matter how much someone raves about a particular aria. Why? Because the ear is a sense organ.

This does not work in the same way with the eyes. We are conditioned from a very early age because of words, nothing else
 
I don't see where delayed seeing is part of how NASA calculates trajectories.

Oh you don’t, do you? :rolleyes: Even though we spent many pages at FF explaining this to you,

Mars is visible as a red dot in the night sky. On average, it takes reflected sunlight 12.5 minutes to reach earth from Mars.

According to your author, we see Mars INSTANTLY. That would mean that when we look at Mars in the sky, that would be where to actually IS.

But it’s NOT where it actually is! That’s where it was 12.5 minutes ago. We are seeing Mars as it was 12.5 minutes in the past. In navigating to Mars, NASA disregards its APPARENT position, and plots a course to its ACTUAL position.

And yet again, real-time seeing is disproved.
 
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Roemer’s hypothesis: sight is not instantaneous!

This is so easy to understand, peacegirl, and it means your author’s instantaneous seeing hypothesis is simply untrue.
It really doesn't. It looks like there is no other explanation possible for light to take longer to get here at certain times of the year other than distance and time, but this is circumstantial. I will never be able to convince anyone here or anywhere on the internet that the author's observations are just as possible as the present version of sight.

The distance of the moon is regularly measured using laser beams reflected from an instrument left on the moon for that purpose.
This does not in any way disprove that we see in real time. This is not magic. Light travels, and there is a finite speed that has been measured definitively.
Of course it does! We went over this again and again with you at FF! You bounce a laser off the moon, there is DELAY in it returning to earth! I believe it is about 1.3 seconds, meaning we always see the moon roughly as it was just over a second in the past.
Objects, like the moon, do not send out images (or information) in delayed time. The laser is a measurement of how long it takes for the laser to reach the moon and back to earth, which is approximately 1.3 seconds, but we do not see the moon 1.3 seconds in the past. A camera is a different story. It sends us footage of the moon that is then transmitted through space, which takes time.



We see the light that is reflected from the moon, the very light that takes time to reach our eyes.

The moon is matter. We see the moon because of light. I know you don't believe that if the brain and eyes are efferent (i.e., looking out), we would see the moon as long as the moon's reflection was bright enough for us to see it—without the light being delayed through time. I think it's about time that this aspect of the thread is over. I'm sorry if I caused cognitive dissonance. That was not my intention. In the end, people can believe whatever they want.


What happens when the moon goes through its phases and we see only part of the moon brightly lit by the sun? Isn’t it clear that it is sunlight reflecting from the moon?

Of course we see the part of the moon that is lit by the sun. The sunlight reflects from the moon, but this does not prove that the reflection travels beyond the range of the moon.
 
I don't see where delayed seeing is part of how NASA calculates trajectories.

Oh you don’t, do you? :rolleyes: Even though we spent many pages at FF explaining this to you,

Mars is visible as a red dot in the night sky. On average, it takes reflected sunlight 12.5 minutes to reach earth from Mars.

According to your author, we see Mars INSTANTLY. That would mean that when we look at Mars in the sky, that would be where to actually IS.

But it’s NOT where it actually is! That’s where it was 12.5 minutes ago. We are seeing Mars as it was 12.5 minutes in the past. In navigating to Mars, NASA disregards its APPARENT position, and plots a course to its ACTUAL position.

And yet again, real-time seeing is disproved.
I don't see where the difference between where the planet was and where it is now has to do with seeing the past.

Motions in the sky

    • Observing and understanding motions in the sky is what led people to understand the layout of the Solar System, and to understand how the Earth moves in space.

    • Objects can appear to move in the sky either because they are actually moving, or because they reflect our motion through space

      • For stars, almost all apparent motion comes from reflex motion, because they are so far away that their intrinsic motion appears very small.

      • For planets, apparent motion in the sky comes from a combination of their intrinsic motion (around the Sun) and their reflex motion.
  • The rotation of the Earth on its axis causes all objects to appear to move around the sky once each day. The apparent motion of a star to an observer which arises from the Earth's rotation depends on the location of the observer on Earth, and the location of the star relative to Earth's rotation axis.

  • http://astronomy.nmsu.edu/holtz/a110/a110notes/node2.html
 
You can see satellites moving across the evening sky, then suddenly disappear when they enter the shadow of the earth. How would this work if sunlight was not reflecting from the satellite to the eye?
It is most definitely reflecting from the satellite to the eye. The only difference is that the satellite (i.e., the object) must be within the range of the eye when the light is reflected. We are not interpreting the image of the satellite from signals in our brain, which is the present theory.

Satellites work, but I don't see where delayed light comes into play.

 
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Roemer’s hypothesis: sight is not instantaneous!

This is so easy to understand, peacegirl, and it means your author’s instantaneous seeing hypothesis is simply untrue.
It really doesn't. It looks like there is no other explanation possible for light to take longer to get here at certain times of the year other than distance and time, but this is circumstantial. I will never be able to convince anyone here or anywhere on the internet that the author's observations are just as possible as the present version of sight.

The distance of the moon is regularly measured using laser beams reflected from an instrument left on the moon for that purpose.
This does not in any way disprove that we see in real time. This is not magic. Light travels, and there is a finite speed that has been measured definitively.
Of course it does! We went over this again and again with you at FF! You bounce a laser off the moon, there is DELAY in it returning to earth! I believe it is about 1.3 seconds, meaning we always see the moon roughly as it was just over a second in the past.
Objects, like the moon, do not send out images (or information) in delayed time. The laser is a measurement of how long it takes for the laser to reach the moon and back to earth, which is approximately 1.3 seconds, but we do not see the moon 1.3 seconds in the past. A camera is a different story. It sends us footage of the moon that is then transmitted through space, which takes time.



We see the light that is reflected from the moon, the very light that takes time to reach our eyes.

The moon is matter. We see the moon because of light. I know you don't believe that if the brain and eyes are efferent (i.e., looking out), we would see the moon as long as the moon's reflection was bright enough for us to see it—without the light being delayed through time. I think it's about time that this aspect of the thread is over. I'm sorry if I caused cognitive dissonance. That was not my intention. In the end, people can believe whatever they want.


What happens when the moon goes through its phases and we see only part of the moon brightly lit by the sun? Isn’t it clear that it is sunlight reflecting from the moon?

Of course we see the part of the moon that is lit by the sun. The sunlight reflects from the moon, but this does not prove that the reflection travels beyond the range of the moon.


How else would we see the moon going through its phases? Is it supposed to be some sort of illusion? A simulation that is not really happening?
 
You can see satellites moving across the evening sky, then suddenly disappear when they enter the shadow of the earth. How would this work if sunlight was not reflecting from the satellite to the eye?
It is most definitely reflecting from the satellite to the eye. The only difference is that the satellite (i.e., the object) must be within the range of the eye when the light is reflected. We are not interpreting the image of the satellite from signals in our brain, which is the present theory.

Satellites work, but I don't see where delayed light comes into play.


That doesn't make sense. The satellite is visible to us because it is in sunlight and that sunlight is being reflected to our eyes....until it goes into the earths shadow where it immediately becomes invisible.

So it is clear that we see the satellite because it is reflecting sunlight.
 
The only difference is that the satellite (i.e., the object) must be within the range of the eye when the light is reflected.
We can see stars that are 16,000 lightyears away with the naked eye.

What exactly do you think is "the range of the eye", and how can it possibly be less than 16,000ly?

Literally everything within 16,000ly is "within the range of the eye".

No satellite is more than a fraction of a light second away. That's 1/500,000,000,000th of that minimum possible "range of the eye". So the "range of the eye" would be utterly irrelevant, even if it were a real thing. Which it really isn't.
 
Roemer’s hypothesis: sight is not instantaneous!

This is so easy to understand, peacegirl, and it means your author’s instantaneous seeing hypothesis is simply untrue.
It really doesn't. It looks like there is no other explanation possible for light to take longer to get here at certain times of the year other than distance and time, but this is circumstantial. I will never be able to convince anyone here or anywhere on the internet that the author's observations are just as possible as the present version of sight.

The distance of the moon is regularly measured using laser beams reflected from an instrument left on the moon for that purpose.
This does not in any way disprove that we see in real time. This is not magic. Light travels, and there is a finite speed that has been measured definitively.
Of course it does! We went over this again and again with you at FF! You bounce a laser off the moon, there is DELAY in it returning to earth! I believe it is about 1.3 seconds, meaning we always see the moon roughly as it was just over a second in the past.
Objects, like the moon, do not send out images (or information) in delayed time. The laser is a measurement of how long it takes for the laser to reach the moon and back to earth, which is approximately 1.3 seconds, but we do not see the moon 1.3 seconds in the past. A camera is a different story. It sends us footage of the moon that is then transmitted through space, which takes time.



We see the light that is reflected from the moon, the very light that takes time to reach our eyes.

The moon is matter. We see the moon because of light. I know you don't believe that if the brain and eyes are efferent (i.e., looking out), we would see the moon as long as the moon's reflection was bright enough for us to see it—without the light being delayed through time. I think it's about time that this aspect of the thread is over. I'm sorry if I caused cognitive dissonance. That was not my intention. In the end, people can believe whatever they want.


What happens when the moon goes through its phases and we see only part of the moon brightly lit by the sun? Isn’t it clear that it is sunlight reflecting from the moon?

Of course we see the part of the moon that is lit by the sun. The sunlight reflects from the moon, but this does not prove that the reflection travels beyond the range of the moon.


How else would we see the moon going through its phases? Is it supposed to be some sort of illusion? A simulation that is not really happening?

I’m not sure why you think seeing in real time would cause the phases of the moon to be an illusion or simulation. It would not.

 
The only difference is that the satellite (i.e., the object) must be within the range of the eye when the light is reflected.
We can see stars that are 16,000 lightyears away with the naked eye.

What exactly do you think is "the range of the eye", and how can it possibly be less than 16,000ly?

Literally everything within 16,000ly is "within the range of the eye".

No satellite is more than a fraction of a light second away. That's 1/500,000,000,000th of that minimum possible "range of the eye". So the "range of the eye" would be utterly irrelevant, even if it were a real thing. Which it really isn't.
If we see in real time, the question arises: Are we seeing stars that are 16,000 ly away, or are we seeing the stars themselves. This would change what the naked eye is actually looking at. It IS relevant because it would mean that the star we are gazing at is so bright and large that we could see it at that great distance. IOW, It would be within our field of view. If the star was too far away for its light to reach us, it would be out of our field of view, but a telescope could magnify it where it could allow the star to be within our range of sight. Some stars are so distant that not even the strongest telescopes have been able to get a glimpse.
 
Roemer’s hypothesis: sight is not instantaneous!

This is so easy to understand, peacegirl, and it means your author’s instantaneous seeing hypothesis is simply untrue.
It really doesn't. It looks like there is no other explanation possible for light to take longer to get here at certain times of the year other than distance and time, but this is circumstantial. I will never be able to convince anyone here or anywhere on the internet that the author's observations are just as possible as the present version of sight.

The distance of the moon is regularly measured using laser beams reflected from an instrument left on the moon for that purpose.
This does not in any way disprove that we see in real time. This is not magic. Light travels, and there is a finite speed that has been measured definitively.
Of course it does! We went over this again and again with you at FF! You bounce a laser off the moon, there is DELAY in it returning to earth! I believe it is about 1.3 seconds, meaning we always see the moon roughly as it was just over a second in the past.
Objects, like the moon, do not send out images (or information) in delayed time. The laser is a measurement of how long it takes for the laser to reach the moon and back to earth, which is approximately 1.3 seconds, but we do not see the moon 1.3 seconds in the past. A camera is a different story. It sends us footage of the moon that is then transmitted through space, which takes time.



We see the light that is reflected from the moon, the very light that takes time to reach our eyes.

The moon is matter. We see the moon because of light. I know you don't believe that if the brain and eyes are efferent (i.e., looking out), we would see the moon as long as the moon's reflection was bright enough for us to see it—without the light being delayed through time. I think it's about time that this aspect of the thread is over. I'm sorry if I caused cognitive dissonance. That was not my intention. In the end, people can believe whatever they want.


What happens when the moon goes through its phases and we see only part of the moon brightly lit by the sun? Isn’t it clear that it is sunlight reflecting from the moon?

Of course we see the part of the moon that is lit by the sun. The sunlight reflects from the moon, but this does not prove that the reflection travels beyond the range of the moon.


How else would we see the moon going through its phases? Is it supposed to be some sort of illusion? A simulation that is not really happening?

I’m not sure why you think seeing in real time would cause the phases of the moon to be an illusion or simulation. It would not.




Because, for the given reasons, instant vision is impossible. It cannot happen. There is no means or mechanism to make it possible. The world does not work like that.
 


There is no real time vision. Light is emitted from the sun and reflected off the moon and the earth, and as light has a given speed, what we see is determined by the time it takes light to travel between the object to the eye, where it is absorbed, converted to electrical impulses, which the brain converts into vision: we see the object as it was when the light was emitted or reflected.

That is how it works.
I appreciate your overview but your version is being challenged and repeating the issue does nothing to solve the problem. Trust me when I say I really do apologize for the conflict. 🫤
 
I don't see where the difference between where the planet was and where it is now has to do with seeing the past.
:rofl:

Tell us you’re joking. Maybe this is the world’s longest-running piece of satirical performance art. You can’t be serious!

It is not the difference between where the planet “was” and “where it is now.” It is the difference between where the planet appears to be right now, and where it actually is.

If we saw in real time, then where Mars appears to be, and where it actually is, would be IDENTICAL.

But they are NOT identical. And NASA must factor this difference into their trajectory calculations.

When we look at Mars from the earth, we are seeing it as it was some 12.5 minutes ago. It has moved on since then!

Because where Mars APPEARS TO BE, and WHERE IT ACTUALLY is, are not the same, your writer is simply WRONG. Sorry!
 
I don't see where the difference between where the planet was and where it is now has to do with seeing the past.
:rofl:

Tell us you’re joking. Maybe this is the world’s longest-running piece of satirical performance art. You can’t be serious!

It is not the difference between where the planet “was” and “where it is now.” It is the difference between where the planet appears to be right now, and where it actually is.

If we saw in real time, then where Mars appears to be, and where it actually is, would be IDENTICAL.

But they are NOT identical. And NASA must factor this difference into their trajectory calculations.

When we look at Mars from the earth, we are seeing it as it was some 12.5 minutes ago. It has moved on since then!

Because where Mars APPEARS TO BE, and WHERE IT ACTUALLY is, are not the same, your writer is simply WRONG. Sorry!
Why doesn't it show up as being of such importance when I google it? There are aberrations but not because of this difference in delayed light.

 
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I don't see where the difference between where the planet was and where it is now has to do with seeing the past.
:rofl:

Tell us you’re joking. Maybe this is the world’s longest-running piece of satirical performance art. You can’t be serious!

It is not the difference between where the planet “was” and “where it is now.” It is the difference between where the planet appears to be right now, and where it actually is.

If we saw in real time, then where Mars appears to be, and where it actually is, would be IDENTICAL.

But they are NOT identical. And NASA must factor this difference into their trajectory calculations.

When we look at Mars from the earth, we are seeing it as it was some 12.5 minutes ago. It has moved on since then!

Because where Mars APPEARS TO BE, and WHERE IT ACTUALLY is, are not the same, your writer is simply WRONG. Sorry!
Maybe she wants to claim that the past we see is really the present. But that would imply earth is at the center of the universe, the oldest seeming place of it, with everything around us being created slightly more recently?
 
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