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Rittenhouse/Kenosha Shooting Split

I think he will get off via self-defence. I don't think there are any good sides in this tale however.

I do hope he is charged with weapons charges and is never allowed to posess a firearm again.
The only weapons charge he could be charged with would be a misdemeanor. It isn't illegal to open carry in Michigan. Now, Rittenhouse was under 18, I've read conflicting things about this, since apparently, it might not be illegal to open carry a long rifle even if you are under 18. Regardless, Michigan has really permissive open carry laws. Hell, apparently, you are even allowed to open carry in polling places!
 
So the word is that the prosecution is going to allege that Rittenhouse ran towards Rosenbaum first and instigated, apparently there is helicopter footage. The defense is going to argue that Rittenhouse was putting out fires, which is what pissed off Rosenbaum.

It seems that Rosenbaum was the one running at Rittenhouse. I would very much like to see that alleged footage.
From all the videos I have seen, Rosenbaum was aggressive toward other people. The "shoot me nigga" and pushing the flaming dumpster came before his encounter with Rittenhouse.

Apparently, Rittenhouse was carrying a fire extinguisher when Rosenbaum attacked him, making defense scenario much more plausible.
EgmuBZOXgAMuaGc

Especially since Rosenbaum has a history of violence and has attempted arson earlier that night.

If they select an impartial jury this should be an easy acquittal.
This was in response to my post, actually. But apparently there is police helicopter footage that first shows Rittenhouse running in Rosenbaums direction, then running away (which is when the video evidence we have all seen starts).

Here's what I think happened: Rittenhouse was putting out fires. Rosenbaum and his group were starting fires. This pissed off Rosenbaum and his friend, who chased after Rittenhouse when he put out the fire near them, and was running towards another fire.
 
Zimmerman didn't start a fight. He followed, he didn't attack.

Zimmerman DID start a fight. He aggressively ran after someone while in possession of a gun without just cause so that a reasonable person would fear for their life. This was the opposite of his training and he ignored the social cue from the police reinforcing this best practice for neighborhood watchmen which amounts to reckless endangerment or culpable negligence in the best case scenario. Zimmerman's word on this cannot be trusted in the least-remember this is a guy who lied constantly about things including a restaurant drama where he started a fight and used the n-word.

Following someone isn't starting a fight with them.
 
I think he will get off via self-defence. I don't think there are any good sides in this tale however.

I do hope he is charged with weapons charges and is never allowed to posess a firearm again.
The only weapons charge he could be charged with would be a misdemeanor. It isn't illegal to open carry in Michigan. Now, Rittenhouse was under 18, I've read conflicting things about this, since apparently, it might not be illegal to open carry a long rifle even if you are under 18. Regardless, Michigan has really permissive open carry laws. Hell, apparently, you are even allowed to open carry in polling places!
This didn't happen in Michigan.
 
So the word is that the prosecution is going to allege that Rittenhouse ran towards Rosenbaum first and instigated, apparently there is helicopter footage. The defense is going to argue that Rittenhouse was putting out fires, which is what pissed off Rosenbaum.

It seems that Rosenbaum was the one running at Rittenhouse. I would very much like to see that alleged footage.
From all the videos I have seen, Rosenbaum was aggressive toward other people. The "shoot me nigga" and pushing the flaming dumpster came before his encounter with Rittenhouse.

Apparently, Rittenhouse was carrying a fire extinguisher when Rosenbaum attacked him, making defense scenario much more plausible.
EgmuBZOXgAMuaGc

Especially since Rosenbaum has a history of violence and has attempted arson earlier that night.

If they select an impartial jury this should be an easy acquittal.
This was in response to my post, actually. But apparently there is police helicopter footage that first shows Rittenhouse running in Rosenbaums direction, then running away (which is when the video evidence we have all seen starts).

Here's what I think happened: Rittenhouse was putting out fires. Rosenbaum and his group were starting fires. This pissed off Rosenbaum and his friend, who chased after Rittenhouse when he put out the fire near them, and was running towards another fire.
It could be that Rittenhouse ran at Rosenbaum in order to threaten to shoot him with the AR-15 if Rosenbaum tried to set a building on fire. Rosenbaum might have then become angry at Rittenhouse specifically. It appeared Rosenbaum was chasing Rittenhouse when Rittenhouse turned and fired. That could have led to Rosenbaum becoming completely enraged, which led to Rittenhouse firing several more shots, fatally wounding him.

Rittenhouse might have been in fear for his life when he killed Rosenbaum but if he was putting other people in fear for theirs, he should be held accountable for it. Grounds for his self defense claims have been compromised through his direct and deliberate actions and should be very limited.
 
Zimmerman didn't start a fight. He followed, he didn't attack.

Zimmerman DID start a fight. He aggressively ran after someone while in possession of a gun without just cause so that a reasonable person would fear for their life. This was the opposite of his training and he ignored the social cue from the police reinforcing this best practice for neighborhood watchmen which amounts to reckless endangerment or culpable negligence in the best case scenario. Zimmerman's word on this cannot be trusted in the least-remember this is a guy who lied constantly about things including a restaurant drama where he started a fight and used the n-word.

Following someone isn't starting a fight with them.
No, it isn't, but that isn't what I wrote. Don't leave out details.

I wrote "[h]e aggressively ran after someone while in possession of a gun without just cause so that a reasonable person would fear for their life. This was the opposite of his training and he ignored the social cue from the police reinforcing this best practice for neighborhood watchmen which amounts to reckless endangerment or culpable negligence in the best case scenario. Zimmerman's word on this cannot be trusted in the least-remember this is a guy who lied constantly about things including a restaurant drama where he started a fight and used the n-word."
 
I think he will get off via self-defence. I don't think there are any good sides in this tale however.

I do hope he is charged with weapons charges and is never allowed to posess a firearm again.
The only weapons charge he could be charged with would be a misdemeanor. It isn't illegal to open carry in Michigan. Now, Rittenhouse was under 18, I've read conflicting things about this, since apparently, it might not be illegal to open carry a long rifle even if you are under 18. Regardless, Michigan has really permissive open carry laws. Hell, apparently, you are even allowed to open carry in polling places!
This didn't happen in Michigan.
You're right Wisconsin. Sorry, I'm one of those damn Coastal Elites everyone rightfully hates. I was born in the swamp. Raised in it.
 
I think he will get off via self-defence. I don't think there are any good sides in this tale however.

I do hope he is charged with weapons charges and is never allowed to posess a firearm again.
The only weapons charge he could be charged with would be a misdemeanor. It isn't illegal to open carry in Michigan. Now, Rittenhouse was under 18, I've read conflicting things about this, since apparently, it might not be illegal to open carry a long rifle even if you are under 18. Regardless, Michigan has really permissive open carry laws. Hell, apparently, you are even allowed to open carry in polling places!
This didn't happen in Michigan.
You're right Wisconsin. Sorry, I'm one of those damn Coastal Elites everyone rightfully hates. I was born in the swamp. Raised in it.
New Jersey? :biggrina:
 
I think he will get off via self-defence. I don't think there are any good sides in this tale however.

I do hope he is charged with weapons charges and is never allowed to posess a firearm again.
The only weapons charge he could be charged with would be a misdemeanor. It isn't illegal to open carry in Michigan. Now, Rittenhouse was under 18, I've read conflicting things about this, since apparently, it might not be illegal to open carry a long rifle even if you are under 18. Regardless, Michigan has really permissive open carry laws. Hell, apparently, you are even allowed to open carry in polling places!
This didn't happen in Michigan.
You're right Wisconsin. Sorry, I'm one of those damn Coastal Elites everyone rightfully hates. I was born in the swamp. Raised in it.
New Jersey? :biggrina:
Nah. DMV.
 
Meanwhile in a case of an actually armed person.

I hate TMZ, but this is the source of the video. So a white guy, with a mask on, carrying a rifle, walks up to the police, sometimes hands up, sometimes not... and nothing?! Loren likes to talk about all the sorts of potential dangers officers shoot people over... but this guy appears to be virtually ignored.
Perhaps as the saying goes, you had to be there?

Around here shootings are becoming a routine event. Gun battle at a grocery store yesterday or the day before. Several recent shootings near the drug store w ere I get my meds at 3rd and Pike in Seattle..

Random drive by shootings of houses and cars in parking lots.

Is there an alternative to hiring the same kind of fallible people as you and I as police?
 
It could be that Rittenhouse ran at Rosenbaum in order to threaten to shoot him with the AR-15 if Rosenbaum tried to set a building on fire. Rosenbaum might have then become angry at Rittenhouse specifically. It appeared Rosenbaum was chasing Rittenhouse when Rittenhouse turned and fired. That could have led to Rosenbaum becoming completely enraged, which led to Rittenhouse firing several more shots, fatally wounding him.

Rittenhouse might have been in fear for his life when he killed Rosenbaum but if he was putting other people in fear for theirs, he should be held accountable for it. Grounds for his self defense claims have been compromised through his direct and deliberate actions and should be very limited.

Fundamentally, this case comes down to why Rosenbaum was coming at Rittenhouse. Somehow this was provoked, the question is how. I strongly suspect that Rittenhouse stepped over the line and thus isn't in a position to claim self defense.
 
It could be that Rittenhouse ran at Rosenbaum in order to threaten to shoot him with the AR-15 if Rosenbaum tried to set a building on fire. Rosenbaum might have then become angry at Rittenhouse specifically. It appeared Rosenbaum was chasing Rittenhouse when Rittenhouse turned and fired. That could have led to Rosenbaum becoming completely enraged, which led to Rittenhouse firing several more shots, fatally wounding him.

Rittenhouse might have been in fear for his life when he killed Rosenbaum but if he was putting other people in fear for theirs, he should be held accountable for it. Grounds for his self defense claims have been compromised through his direct and deliberate actions and should be very limited.

Fundamentally, this case comes down to why Rosenbaum was coming at Rittenhouse. Somehow this was provoked, the question is how. I strongly suspect that Rittenhouse stepped over the line and thus isn't in a position to claim self defense.
I agree.

This was the general consensus in the first thread about Rittenhouse, too. We don't know why Rosenbaum was running after Rittenhouse. There were a few witness statements about Rittenhouse's conduct shortly before the confrontation but no specifics about how their fight got started. We'll have to see what evidence is brought forth at trial.
 
Fundamentally, this case comes down to why Rosenbaum was coming at Rittenhouse. Somehow this was provoked, the question is how. I strongly suspect that Rittenhouse stepped over the line and thus isn't in a position to claim self defense.
Why do you suspect that, let alone strongly? Rosenbaum is on video being aggressive with other people. And he has a history of violent crime. It is very likely he went after Rittenhouse for nothing more than that he was pissed off that Rittenhouse was dousing fires Rosenbaum and his Antifa comrades were setting.
 
It could be that Rittenhouse ran at Rosenbaum in order to threaten to shoot him with the AR-15 if Rosenbaum tried to set a building on fire. Rosenbaum might have then become angry at Rittenhouse specifically. It appeared Rosenbaum was chasing Rittenhouse when Rittenhouse turned and fired. That could have led to Rosenbaum becoming completely enraged, which led to Rittenhouse firing several more shots, fatally wounding him.

Rittenhouse might have been in fear for his life when he killed Rosenbaum but if he was putting other people in fear for theirs, he should be held accountable for it. Grounds for his self defense claims have been compromised through his direct and deliberate actions and should be very limited.

Fundamentally, this case comes down to why Rosenbaum was coming at Rittenhouse. Somehow this was provoked, the question is how. I strongly suspect that Rittenhouse stepped over the line and thus isn't in a position to claim self defense.
This is like a reception these days.... what is a football move? What is self-defense when someone crosses state lines while armed with a dangerous weapon (he isn't legally old enough to possess), to walk amongst a protest (not even participate in)?

If the law provides cover for such wanton stupidity, the law needs to go.
 
This is like a reception these days.... what is a football move? What is self-defense when someone crosses state lines while armed with a dangerous weapon (he isn't legally old enough to possess), to walk amongst a protest (not even participate in)?

If the law provides cover for such wanton stupidity, the law needs to go.

Crossing state lines etc has nothing to do with whether it's valid self defense. Defending yourself with an illegal weapon can bring charges for the illegal weapon but has no bearing on whether you can claim self defense. All that matters in that regard is the cause of the situation--if you're the aggressor you don't get to claim self defense. (Note, however, that the situation is interpreted narrowly. If you walk away and they come after you it's now a separate encounter.) (Note, also, that "aggressor" doesn't inherently need to be violent--a burglar can't claim self defense relative to the homeowner even if the homeowner came after them.)
 
This is like a reception these days.... what is a football move? What is self-defense when someone crosses state lines while armed with a dangerous weapon (he isn't legally old enough to possess), to walk amongst a protest (not even participate in)?

If the law provides cover for such wanton stupidity, the law needs to go.

Crossing state lines etc has nothing to do with whether it's valid self defense. Defending yourself with an illegal weapon can bring charges for the illegal weapon but has no bearing on whether you can claim self defense. All that matters in that regard is the cause of the situation--if you're the aggressor you don't get to claim self defense. (Note, however, that the situation is interpreted narrowly. If you walk away and they come after you it's now a separate encounter.) (Note, also, that "aggressor" doesn't inherently need to be violent--a burglar can't claim self defense relative to the homeowner even if the homeowner came after them.)
I don't think that's entirely true. Your rights drop considerably while you are doing criminal activity.
 
This is like a reception these days.... what is a football move? What is self-defense when someone crosses state lines while armed with a dangerous weapon (he isn't legally old enough to possess), to walk amongst a protest (not even participate in)?

If the law provides cover for such wanton stupidity, the law needs to go.

Crossing state lines etc has nothing to do with whether it's valid self defense. Defending yourself with an illegal weapon can bring charges for the illegal weapon but has no bearing on whether you can claim self defense. All that matters in that regard is the cause of the situation--if you're the aggressor you don't get to claim self defense. (Note, however, that the situation is interpreted narrowly. If you walk away and they come after you it's now a separate encounter.) (Note, also, that "aggressor" doesn't inherently need to be violent--a burglar can't claim self defense relative to the homeowner even if the homeowner came after them.)
Ain't this an important part, as it seems to be ignored.

article (my emphasis) said:
About 15 minutes before the first shooting, police officers drive past Mr. Rittenhouse, and the other armed civilians who claim to be protecting the dealership, and offer water out of appreciation.

Mr. Rittenhouse walks up to a police vehicle carrying his rifle and talks with the officers.

He eventually leaves the dealership and is barred by the police from returning. Six minutes later footage shows Mr. Rittenhouse being chased by an unknown group of people into the parking lot of another dealership several blocks away.
Why he isn't escorted away by the Police we can only guess. But his services appeared to not be wanted.
 
The trial is live streaming now. Here's one link

 
I don't think that's entirely true. Your rights drop considerably while you are doing criminal activity.

Criminal activity like setting fires or attacking a child*?

* If 17 year old Trayvon is always referred to as a "child" on here, why not 17 year old Kyle?
 
I don't think that's entirely true. Your rights drop considerably while you are doing criminal activity.

Criminal activity like setting fires or attacking a child*?

* If 17 year old Trayvon is always referred to as a "child" on here, why not 17 year old Kyle?
Strange how you reverse your stance when the "child" is white.
 
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