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Rittenhouse/Kenosha Shooting Split

For the second and third people he shot, I agree. The reason he shot the first guy is more murky.

If the first guy is inappropriate he doesn't have standing to claim self defense in the other cases.

I've heard the first person he shot in the head from across a street. If it was cops pursuing him to catch him and he shot them, would it not be murder?

Exactly. Once you have unclean hands you don't have the right to use force in self defense relevant to the situation in which you have unclean hands. Once he shot someone without reason any force he uses against those trying to stop him is automatically illegal.

Being 17, he was also illegally carrying that firearm.

Check local law on that. You need to be 18+ to buy a rifle/shotgun and 21+ to buy a handgun but that doesn't say you have to be of those ages to possess one.
 
Ok, I think this video makes it clear. The guy in the blue rectangle and shirt on his head throws a plastic bag probably with rocks at him and misses. Then he runs up and tries to disarm him. Not sure whata happened with that.

https://twitter.com/AntifaWatch2/status/1298649108585099264

Is this before or after he killed the first person?

Directly after.

Here's a video that gives a semi-clear sequence of events, starting with the first shooting:

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/n_7QHRNFOKE?t=153[/YOUTUBE]

Seems the guy shot in the head was chasing him and threw a molotov cocktail at him?

After that, he is attacked by the other two dudes, and that's when he kills the other guy, it seems, and definitely when he wounds the third guy. Warning, the video is pretty graphic.

I don't see anything that shows the events leading up to it. Unfortunately, as usually happens with such situations the cameras miss the trigger and only see the response. (Because people only start filming when something happens, this isn't an intentional deception.)
 
Directly after.

Here's a video that gives a semi-clear sequence of events, starting with the first shooting:

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/n_7QHRNFOKE?t=153[/YOUTUBE]

Seems the guy shot in the head was chasing him and threw a molotov cocktail at him?

After that, he is attacked by the other two dudes, and that's when he kills the other guy, it seems, and definitely when he wounds the third guy. Warning, the video is pretty graphic.

I don't see anything that shows the events leading up to it. Unfortunately, as usually happens with such situations the cameras miss the trigger and only see the response. (Because people only start filming when something happens, this isn't an intentional deception.)

I agree.

We don't know what caused Rittenhouse to shoot the first guy. We do know that when people identify an active shooter, some of them will try to stop further carnage by tackling the guy or shooting back. Usually we call those people heroes.
 
Directly after.

Here's a video that gives a semi-clear sequence of events, starting with the first shooting:

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/n_7QHRNFOKE?t=153[/YOUTUBE]

Seems the guy shot in the head was chasing him and threw a molotov cocktail at him?

After that, he is attacked by the other two dudes, and that's when he kills the other guy, it seems, and definitely when he wounds the third guy. Warning, the video is pretty graphic.

I don't see anything that shows the events leading up to it. Unfortunately, as usually happens with such situations the cameras miss the trigger and only see the response. (Because people only start filming when something happens, this isn't an intentional deception.)

I agree.

We don't know what caused Rittenhouse to shoot the first guy. We do know that when people identify an active shooter, some of them will try to stop further carnage by tackling the guy or shooting back. Usually we call those people heroes.

I disagree on mass shooter--nobody else was hit. However, I strongly suspect there was a substantial incident that doesn't show up on the video that caused the attack on him. People with molotovs rarely chase people with guns without a very good reason.

Given the behavior of the police department there I wouldn't be surprised if we never find out exactly what happened.
 
I agree.

We don't know what caused Rittenhouse to shoot the first guy. We do know that when people identify an active shooter, some of them will try to stop further carnage by tackling the guy or shooting back. Usually we call those people heroes.

I disagree on mass shooter--nobody else was hit.

Did you watch the videos? Rittenhouse fired multiple times. Just because he mostly missed doesn't mean he wasn't trying to hit more people.

And anyway, two people shot to death and one seriously wounded by a guy firing into a crowd is a mass shooting.


However, I strongly suspect there was a substantial incident that doesn't show up on the video that caused the attack on him. People with molotovs rarely chase people with guns without a very good reason.

Given the behavior of the police department there I wouldn't be surprised if we never find out exactly what happened.

I think we'll eventually hear enough from the people who were there to reach reasonable conclusions about the most important elements.
 
I've heard the first person he shot in the head from across a street. If it was cops pursuing him to catch him and he shot them, would it not be murder?

Exactly. Once you have unclean hands you don't have the right to use force in self defense relevant to the situation in which you have unclean hands. Once he shot someone without reason any force he uses against those trying to stop him is automatically illegal.

Being 17, he was also illegally carrying that firearm.

Check local law on that. You need to be 18+ to buy a rifle/shotgun and 21+ to buy a handgun but that doesn't say you have to be of those ages to possess one.

Suspected Kenosha shooter may have been illegally carrying gun

Wisconsin is an open carry state, meaning anyone who gets a gun legally can carry it in most public places without a license or permit.

But that's not the case for minors like 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse, who is accused of shooting three protesters in Kenosha Tuesday night, killing
two of them.

Kenosha Police Chief Daniel Miskinis confirmed to reporters Wednesday that you have to be 18 to open carry in the state of Wisconsin.
 
Exactly. Once you have unclean hands you don't have the right to use force in self defense relevant to the situation in which you have unclean hands. Once he shot someone without reason any force he uses against those trying to stop him is automatically illegal.



Check local law on that. You need to be 18+ to buy a rifle/shotgun and 21+ to buy a handgun but that doesn't say you have to be of those ages to possess one.

Suspected Kenosha shooter may have been illegally carrying gun

Wisconsin is an open carry state, meaning anyone who gets a gun legally can carry it in most public places without a license or permit.

But that's not the case for minors like 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse, who is accused of shooting three protesters in Kenosha Tuesday night, killing
two of them.

Kenosha Police Chief Daniel Miskinis confirmed to reporters Wednesday that you have to be 18 to open carry in the state of Wisconsin.

"Suspected"; "May have been".

DOCUMENTED shooter ABSOLUTELY in illegal possession of assault weapon at time of mass shooting.
 
I agree.

We don't know what caused Rittenhouse to shoot the first guy. We do know that when people identify an active shooter, some of them will try to stop further carnage by tackling the guy or shooting back. Usually we call those people heroes.

I disagree on mass shooter--nobody else was hit. However, I strongly suspect there was a substantial incident that doesn't show up on the video that caused the attack on him. People with molotovs rarely chase people with guns without a very good reason.

Given the behavior of the police department there I wouldn't be surprised if we never find out exactly what happened.

there is a video where the shorter bald guy who got shot in the head is revved up and the shooter is on the other side. Someone with the shooter strongly pushed him back to get with away from the protestors and maybe the bald guy in particular.

No, I found it again, but it was a different guy that was pulled back - black and not tan shoes. Actually, as a team the militia were trying to get their guys who were getting heated out of the faces of the protestors, not always successfully.

https://twitter.com/AnonOpsSE/status/1298490065723760641
 
I agree.

We don't know what caused Rittenhouse to shoot the first guy. We do know that when people identify an active shooter, some of them will try to stop further carnage by tackling the guy or shooting back. Usually we call those people heroes.

I disagree on mass shooter--nobody else was hit. However, I strongly suspect there was a substantial incident that doesn't show up on the video that caused the attack on him. People with molotovs rarely chase people with guns without a very good reason.

Given the behavior of the police department there I wouldn't be surprised if we never find out exactly what happened.

there is a video where the shorter bald guy who got shot in the head is revved up and the shooter is on the other side. Someone with the shooter strongly pushed him back to get with away from the protestors and maybe the bald guy in particular.

Yeah, it looks like that's where/when it started. But what started it isn't clear.

Rittenhouse may have felt threatened and shot that first guy in self defense, or he may have instigated the conflict by threatening others. We need a lot more information before we can assign blame, but I definitely want to have a word with his parents.
 
I've heard the first person he shot in the head from across a street. If it was cops pursuing him to catch him and he shot them, would it not be murder?

Exactly. Once you have unclean hands you don't have the right to use force in self defense relevant to the situation in which you have unclean hands. Once he shot someone without reason any force he uses against those trying to stop him is automatically illegal.

Being 17, he was also illegally carrying that firearm.

Check local law on that. You need to be 18+ to buy a rifle/shotgun and 21+ to buy a handgun but that doesn't say you have to be of those ages to possess one.

There’s a crucial time period missing in all these stories. The kid left the business he was “guarding.” Why? Where did he go? He tried to return and the cops wouldn’t let him. Why? Why didn’t they stop him then? Then there’s the altercation with the first victim, but what happened immediately before then? How did this altercation start? What did the first victim throw at him? Supposedly there’s a first shot from a handgun just before. What was that about? Who did it? Exactly what happened between the time the cops turned him away and the first altercation is crucial.
 
Directly after.

Here's a video that gives a semi-clear sequence of events, starting with the first shooting:

[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/n_7QHRNFOKE?t=153[/YOUTUBE]

Seems the guy shot in the head was chasing him and threw a molotov cocktail at him?

After that, he is attacked by the other two dudes, and that's when he kills the other guy, it seems, and definitely when he wounds the third guy. Warning, the video is pretty graphic.

I don't see anything that shows the events leading up to it. Unfortunately, as usually happens with such situations the cameras miss the trigger and only see the response. (Because people only start filming when something happens, this isn't an intentional deception.)

I agree.

We don't know what caused Rittenhouse to shoot the first guy. We do know that when people identify an active shooter, some of them will try to stop further carnage by tackling the guy or shooting back. Usually we call those people heroes.

Yes, we do. He was being chased by two guys and running away. One of the guys was shooting a gun in the air, and the other guy, who was shot in the head, lunged at him. You can see this *in the video you are responding to* and it's detailed quite clearly in the NY time piece I referenced in my previous post.


The only thing we don't know is why he was being chased by the two guys in the first place, but given he was running away and one of the guys was shooting a gun, I think he has a pretty good self-defence case.
 
Did you watch the videos? Rittenhouse fired multiple times. Just because he mostly missed doesn't mean he wasn't trying to hit more people.

And anyway, two people shot to death and one seriously wounded by a guy firing into a crowd is a mass shooting.


However, I strongly suspect there was a substantial incident that doesn't show up on the video that caused the attack on him. People with molotovs rarely chase people with guns without a very good reason.

Given the behavior of the police department there I wouldn't be surprised if we never find out exactly what happened.

I think we'll eventually hear enough from the people who were there to reach reasonable conclusions about the most important elements.

The guy he wounded was about to shoot him.
 
Exactly. Once you have unclean hands you don't have the right to use force in self defense relevant to the situation in which you have unclean hands. Once he shot someone without reason any force he uses against those trying to stop him is automatically illegal.



Check local law on that. You need to be 18+ to buy a rifle/shotgun and 21+ to buy a handgun but that doesn't say you have to be of those ages to possess one.

Suspected Kenosha shooter may have been illegally carrying gun

Wisconsin is an open carry state, meaning anyone who gets a gun legally can carry it in most public places without a license or permit.

But that's not the case for minors like 17-year-old Kyle Rittenhouse, who is accused of shooting three protesters in Kenosha Tuesday night, killing
two of them.

Kenosha Police Chief Daniel Miskinis confirmed to reporters Wednesday that you have to be 18 to open carry in the state of Wisconsin.
I don't know how the fact that he was carrying the firearm illegally (due to being underage, apparently in Wisconsin, anyone over 18 can open carry a rifle) will affect his claim of self defense. I still think it's pretty strong given that he was clearly running away.
 
The criminal complaint against Rittenhouse can be found here. The CBSN Chicago report contains a summary of what the Prosecution alleges happened:

CBSN Chicago said:
Prosecutors said cellphone video obtained and reviewed by police showed Rittenhouse running southwest across the eastern portion of the Car Source parking lot holding a long gun – which was later recovered by police and identified as a Smith & Wesson AR-15 style .223 rifle. The recovered magazine with the gun holds 30 rounds, prosecutors said.

Rosenbaum is seen following Rittenhouse, and trailing behind them is a reporter identified as Richard McGinnis, who interviewed Rittenhouse for the Daily Caller.

The video showed as they all crossed the parking lot, Rosenbaum appeared to throw a plastic bag at Rittenhouse, but the bag did not hit him, prosecutors said.

Rosenbaum appears to be unarmed for the duration of the first video, prosecutors said.

A second video showed Rittenhouse and Rosenbaum continuing to move across the parking lot and approach a black car parked in the lot. A loud bang is heard, and then a man shouts, “F**k you!” prosecutors said. Afterward, Rosenbaum approaches Rittenhouse and gets close and four more loud bangs are heard, prosecutors said.

Rosenbaum then falls to the ground, and remains there as Rittenhouse circles back behind the black car and approached him, prosecutors said. McGinnis also approached Rosenbaum, removed his own shirt, and tried to render aid, prosecutors said.

Meanwhile, Rittenhouse appeared to get on his cellphone and make a call. As another man approached, Rittenhouse ran from the scene, and as he was heard saying on the phone, “I just killed somebody,” prosecutors said.
 
The criminal complaint against Rittenhouse can be found here. The CBSN Chicago report contains a summary of what the Prosecution alleges happened:

CBSN Chicago said:
Prosecutors said cellphone video obtained and reviewed by police showed Rittenhouse running southwest across the eastern portion of the Car Source parking lot holding a long gun – which was later recovered by police and identified as a Smith & Wesson AR-15 style .223 rifle. The recovered magazine with the gun holds 30 rounds, prosecutors said.

Rosenbaum is seen following Rittenhouse, and trailing behind them is a reporter identified as Richard McGinnis, who interviewed Rittenhouse for the Daily Caller.

The video showed as they all crossed the parking lot, Rosenbaum appeared to throw a plastic bag at Rittenhouse, but the bag did not hit him, prosecutors said.

Rosenbaum appears to be unarmed for the duration of the first video, prosecutors said.

A second video showed Rittenhouse and Rosenbaum continuing to move across the parking lot and approach a black car parked in the lot. A loud bang is heard, and then a man shouts, “F**k you!” prosecutors said. Afterward, Rosenbaum approaches Rittenhouse and gets close and four more loud bangs are heard, prosecutors said.

Rosenbaum then falls to the ground, and remains there as Rittenhouse circles back behind the black car and approached him, prosecutors said. McGinnis also approached Rosenbaum, removed his own shirt, and tried to render aid, prosecutors said.

Meanwhile, Rittenhouse appeared to get on his cellphone and make a call. As another man approached, Rittenhouse ran from the scene, and as he was heard saying on the phone, “I just killed somebody,” prosecutors said.

Yeah, that's a good summary of what seems to have happened. Again, no one seems to know why Rosenbaum was chasing after him, although, there is video of a heated confrontation involving Rosenbaum and these militia types, which apparently happened right before this. But this is still the main question, as far as I can tell.
 
"he should not have come from another state in order to defend some ones business"

Its tear jerking to see that in 2020 marxists finally understand borders

Pretty much
 
Copied from a post on FB:

So, as a person who enjoys shooting and guns, I'm going to point out a few things about this kid in wisconsin that are basically going to wreck him in court and nullify any self defense argument he has.

Just remember I like guns, I think they are super awesome and everyone should at bare minimum know how to use one. So let's move on to the Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes section of this post.

1. He was 17. It was illegal for him to posses that rifle. In his home state you have to be 21, in wisconsin you have to be 18.
This was crime 1.

2. Crossing the state line with an illegally possessed weapon is a pretty big deal and a big fat number 2 on the crime list.

3. Wisconsin totally allows for the use of deadly force in self defense, but the caveat is that you cant be committing a crime while that use of force happens. Which we addressed above he was actively committing a crime by possessing that rifle.

4. Wisconsin has a Castle Doctrine. But you can only use deadly force if the perpetrators are in your dwelling or your place of business. For a place of business you have to own this, or be in charge of operations of the business. You can not just post up to protect a random business, also you can not chase people if they decide to retreat like This 17yo did. Wisconsin V. Charles L Chew is the case law. If you want to have a look.

5. Its not self defense when you get in your car with a rifle, drive 15mi to another town, and walk the streets with a rifle.

He had every option to stay home but he chose to get involved in this situation with the plan to be involved in confrontation(hence the rifle) also in Wisconsin self defense law you cant be the instigator and then claim self defense.

He became the instigator the second he pursued.

I get it. The kid thought he was gonna be a hero and help out. But, reality is he made a large number of bad mistakes because he's 17 and has his face buried what essentially amounts to propaganda everyday and he can't tell the difference.

Now 2 people are dead and hes headed to jail.

This is what all those "shoot the protestors" comments create.
 
Copied from a post on FB:

So, as a person who enjoys shooting and guns, I'm going to point out a few things about this kid in wisconsin that are basically going to wreck him in court and nullify any self defense argument he has.

Just remember I like guns, I think they are super awesome and everyone should at bare minimum know how to use one. So let's move on to the Play Stupid Games, Win Stupid Prizes section of this post.

1. He was 17. It was illegal for him to posses that rifle. In his home state you have to be 21, in wisconsin you have to be 18.
This was crime 1.

2. Crossing the state line with an illegally possessed weapon is a pretty big deal and a big fat number 2 on the crime list.

3. Wisconsin totally allows for the use of deadly force in self defense, but the caveat is that you cant be committing a crime while that use of force happens. Which we addressed above he was actively committing a crime by possessing that rifle.

4. Wisconsin has a Castle Doctrine. But you can only use deadly force if the perpetrators are in your dwelling or your place of business. For a place of business you have to own this, or be in charge of operations of the business. You can not just post up to protect a random business, also you can not chase people if they decide to retreat like This 17yo did. Wisconsin V. Charles L Chew is the case law. If you want to have a look.

5. Its not self defense when you get in your car with a rifle, drive 15mi to another town, and walk the streets with a rifle.

He had every option to stay home but he chose to get involved in this situation with the plan to be involved in confrontation(hence the rifle) also in Wisconsin self defense law you cant be the instigator and then claim self defense.

He became the instigator the second he pursued.

I get it. The kid thought he was gonna be a hero and help out. But, reality is he made a large number of bad mistakes because he's 17 and has his face buried what essentially amounts to propaganda everyday and he can't tell the difference.

Now 2 people are dead and hes headed to jail.

This is what all those "shoot the protestors" comments create.

Whatever bro! The law only applies to people we hate.
 
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