Roe v Wade is on deck

[TomC]

And it is now (or extremely soon to be) not available to anyone in several states?
And since when should someone HAVE to travel in order to get a safe medical procedure?

It remains available to everyone who can travel. It remains a "right".

I think the recent SCOTUS decision is appalling because it reduces the right to those who can travel.

I think it's appalling for several reasons. One is that it makes abortion a right depending on ability to travel. That was one of the reasons for RvW in the first place. Federalizing such laws is better than state legislatures deciding this individually.

Let me repeat something I've said several times, here on IIDB alone.
The recent SCOTUS decision is appalling.

It's ugly and immoral, IMNSHO. It's the results of treasonous partisan politicians, who don't care as much about the common good as their party interests.
Tom

 

[TomC]

FTR, I did not call you a misogynist, although you clearly took it that way.

FTR, I didn't say it was you.

But lots of people on internet forums, including IIDB, have.
Tom

 

[Copernicus]

FTR, I did not call you a misogynist, although you clearly took it that way.

FTR, I didn't say it was you.

But lots of people on internet forums, including IIDB, have.
Tom

Well, your reaction to my post did include a reference to people calling you a misogynist. It wasn't too far a leap to see that you saw the use of my term "misogynist" to characterize an idea as some kind of personal attack on you. You still have not addressed my criticism that you extended the term "birth control" to include abortion, which is usually how anti-choice crowd likes to frame it. It is a trope used to stir up anger towards women who choose to get an abortion, even though nobody can get an abortion until after they become pregnant and pretty much all of those doing the choosing are women.

 

[TomC]

Well, your reaction to my post did include a reference to people calling you a misogynist

Which they do.

By the feminist standards of a great deal of the internet and woke world, gender egalitarian is misogynist. Including IIDB.

You may not notice it, but it happens.
A lot.
Tom

 

[Rhea]

I agree that “using abortion as birth control,” necessarily means acknowledging, “we’ll have sex, we can always get an abortion later if we get pregnant.”

Otherwise, it is not being used “as birth control” which is always used as “I’ll do this so I can have sex without a baby.”

I don’t know, maybe that’s exactly what Tom and his girlfriend agreed before having sex, but I had not assumed that from Tom’s story. It is possible that some people have done that, but it wouldn’t take too many repeats to be at high risk of damaging one’s fertility, so it is extremely unlikely that it is done frequently or repeatedly.

Which leaves that as a tiny portion of the total users of abortion - making it cruel to use as an excuse to deny women non-“birth control” abortions.

 

[Copernicus]

Well, your reaction to my post did include a reference to people calling you a misogynist

Which they do.

By the feminist standards of a great deal of the internet and woke world, gender egalitarian is misogynist. Including IIDB.

You may not notice it, but it happens.
A lot.
Tom

And you still refuse to address my point that abortion is not normally thought of as birth control. My question of why you chose to frame it that way remains unanswered so I guess we'll all have to draw our own conclusions from the sound of silence.

 

[TomC]

You still have not addressed my criticism that you extended the term "birth control" to include abortion,

Abortion is a form of birth control.
Why else would anyone do it?
If someone thought that they were gestating a kitten, or a Gucci handbag, there wouldn't be any elective abortion.

Lots of feticide is self defense. Medical issues that can't be addressed any other way. My mom would have died years before I was born had surgical treatment for her ectopic pregnancy been unavailable. I'm alive because of abortion.

Abortion was a form of birth control she desperately needed. But not all abortion is like that. Mine(ours) wasn't. We relied on really bad birth control methods, "rubbers when you need them, rhythm method the other two weeks a month".

Bad bad choice.

"Ya know what you call people who use the rhythm method?

Parents."

Tom

 

[Elixir]

 

[Rhea]

Elixer, if the fetus is a person at “1 week,” then it’s a person before you’ve even had sex.
That’s the cool part. They count, in that “6 weeks,” the time since your last period. Or, more coorectly, *MY* last period, since you and the SC judges don’t have one. So the first two of those weeks, the penis has not yet been inside the vagina. But they are already ticking my clock.

Fabulous, huh?

So I should be able to get insurance, and then, when I get my period, I should be able to collect the life insurance.

Every month.

Maybe this will be great for women…

 

[TomC]

Elixer, if the fetus is a person at “1 week,” then it’s a person before you’ve even had sex.

That's a bizarre assertion.

Why did you post that?
Tom

 

[Jarhyn]

Elixer, if the fetus is a person at “1 week,” then it’s a person before you’ve even had sex.

That's a bizarre assertion.

Why did you post that?
Tom

Because that's how the law works.

'conception' is counted from the last missed period, which may be weeks or even a full month before conception happened.

If someone continued having sex after a couple of missed periods that just... never happened... they could be at "6 weeks" legally on the day they actually conceived.

 

[Copernicus]

You still have not addressed my criticism that you extended the term "birth control" to include abortion,

Abortion is a form of birth control.
Why else would anyone do it?
If someone thought that they were gestating a kitten, or a Gucci handbag, there wouldn't be any elective abortion.

Lots of feticide is self defense. Medical issues that can't be addressed any other way. My mom would have died years before I was born had surgical treatment for her ectopic pregnancy been unavailable. I'm alive because of abortion.

Abortion was a form of birth control she desperately needed. But not all abortion is like that. Mine(ours) wasn't. We relied on really bad birth control methods, "rubbers when you need them, rhythm method the other two weeks a month".

Bad bad choice.

"Ya know what you call people who use the rhythm method?

Parents."

Tom

Just to be clear, Tom, you are reacting to what I said, but not addressing any of the content in a meaningful way. Instead, you are simply doubling down on your unsupported assumption that abortion is a form of birth control, despite the fact that I explained to you why it isn't and provided a link from a medical web site that explained why it isn't. You don't try to support your assumption, just repeat it as if it had not been refuted. That is an ad nauseam argument, and it won't become true just because you ignore the refutation.

That you exist because of abortion supports your claim that you are against the criminalization of abortion, not that abortion is birth control. Support your claim that abortion is birth control, or accept that you are pushing a false equivalence.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

A 10-year-old was forced to cross state lines for an abortion after Ohio's ban went into place. The Indiana doctor who helped her will soon be unable to assist others.

As Ohio outlawed abortions after six weeks, doctors in neighboring Indiana described an influx of patients from out-of-state seeking the procedure, including a pregnant 10-year-old.

www.businessinsider.com

The US Supreme Court could have stopped this. In fact, they created this. I'm very interested in Metaphor's opinion as to why this isn't their fault. Because, like I said, the Supreme Court could have stopped this.

And I'll throw this one out there also: https://www.medpagetoday.com/opinion/second-opinions/99524

 

[Toni]

You still have not addressed my criticism that you extended the term "birth control" to include abortion,

Abortion is a form of birth control.
Why else would anyone do it?
If someone thought that they were gestating a kitten, or a Gucci handbag, there wouldn't be any elective abortion.

Lots of feticide is self defense. Medical issues that can't be addressed any other way. My mom would have died years before I was born had surgical treatment for her ectopic pregnancy been unavailable. I'm alive because of abortion.

Abortion was a form of birth control she desperately needed. But not all abortion is like that. Mine(ours) wasn't. We relied on really bad birth control methods, "rubbers when you need them, rhythm method the other two weeks a month".

Bad bad choice.

"Ya know what you call people who use the rhythm method?

Parents."

Tom

If I thought I was gestating a Gucci bag or a kitten, I hope my loved ones would seek out emergency mental health treatment for me immediately. If I were actually pregnant and believed I was gestating a kitten or a Gucci bag, I would hope the pregnancy would be terminated. I would obviously require medical /psychiatric treatment incompatible with gestating a pregnancy without causing grave harm to any fetus.

You never had an abortion. You could not possibly ever have or have had an abortion because you are cis male and have neither uterus nor ovaries, both of which are necessary to become pregnant.

Unless there is a different time you are referring to, your former girlfriend also did not have an abortion. You two thought she was pregnant, and you talked about having an abortion. But either she was not actually pregnant or she miscarried very early in a pregnancy.

Now, you may feel very guilty for being careless or even for being sexually active without being married. Or whatever closeted gay catholic boys feel guilty about. You may feel guilty because you talked about and maybe investigated and planned to procure an abortion—which, btw, would have required, at the very least, a positive pregnancy test.

But you did not have an abortion. And your girlfriend did not have an abortion.

Your mother’s abortion was not birth control. It was a necessary medical procedure to save her life. It was impossible for a baby to have resulted from that ectopic pregnancy.

There are many reasons girls and women seek abortions. Their reasons are their reasons and not my business. They may have been raped. They may be in an abusive situation. Their housing or employment or educational situation may be precarious. Or they may just not want to have a baby—at that time or maybe never. They may be reaching a different decision than I would but it’s not my decision. And it’s not yours either.

 

[Jarhyn]

You still have not addressed my criticism that you extended the term "birth control" to include abortion,

Abortion is a form of birth control.
Why else would anyone do it?
If someone thought that they were gestating a kitten, or a Gucci handbag, there wouldn't be any elective abortion.

Lots of feticide is self defense. Medical issues that can't be addressed any other way. My mom would have died years before I was born had surgical treatment for her ectopic pregnancy been unavailable. I'm alive because of abortion.

Abortion was a form of birth control she desperately needed. But not all abortion is like that. Mine(ours) wasn't. We relied on really bad birth control methods, "rubbers when you need them, rhythm method the other two weeks a month".

Bad bad choice.

"Ya know what you call people who use the rhythm method?

Parents."

Tom

If I thought I was gestating a Gucci bag or a kitten, I hope my loved ones would seek out emergency mental health treatment for me immediately. If I were actually pregnant and believed I was gestating a kitten or a Gucci bag, I would hope the pregnancy would be terminated. I would obviously require medical /psychiatric treatment incompatible with gestating a pregnancy without causing grave harm to any fetus.

You never had an abortion. You could not possibly ever have or have had an abortion because you are cis male and have neither uterus nor ovaries, both of which are necessary to become pregnant.

Unless there is a different time you are referring to, your former girlfriend also did not have an abortion. You two thought she was pregnant, and you talked about having an abortion. But either she was not actually pregnant or she miscarried very early in a pregnancy.

Now, you may feel very guilty for being careless or even for being sexually active without being married. Or whatever closeted gay catholic boys feel guilty about. You may feel guilty because you talked about and maybe investigated and planned to procure an abortion—which, btw, would have required, at the very least, a positive pregnancy test.

But you did not have an abortion. And your girlfriend did not have an abortion.

Your mother’s abortion was not birth control. It was a necessary medical procedure to save her life. It was impossible for a baby to have resulted from that ectopic pregnancy.

There are many reasons girls and women seek abortions. Their reasons are their reasons and not my business. They may have been raped. They may be in an abusive situation. Their housing or employment or educational situation may be precarious. Or they may just not want to have a baby—at that time or maybe never. They may be reaching a different decision than I would but it’s not my decision. And it’s not yours either.

I feel weird enough even so, discussing it from the perspective of someone who absolutely knows the class of fucked (fucked unto pregnancy) they would be signing up for to be pregnant.

I will never, even if I one day acquire a uterus, ever have to worry about an unwanted pregnancy, either from rape or lack of birth control.

Having an abortion as such would be the sort of decision that would only happen if something absolutely tragic were afoot.

As such I am in a position of safe comfort in those issues.

Even so, who the fuck would be like "yeah, let's risk it for the biscuit, if you get pregnant we'll just take on the financial, personal, and psychological costs of an abortion! That's the ticket!"

Sane people don't think that way.

More often, the result happens because they just don't think, period.

 

[Rhea]

Elixer, if the fetus is a person at “1 week,” then it’s a person before you’ve even had sex.

That's a bizarre assertion.

Why did you post that?
Tom

Did you not know that when they pass a “6 week abortion ban” that the first two weeks of that measure are before the person had sex?

Did you not know that?


Well, now you know. They count your pregnancy from your last menstruation. You are counted as “2 weeks pregnant” before you even ovulate.


Or rather, **I** am counted as pregnant. You never, ever would be.

 

[lpetrich]

With religion-related rulings on the horizon, U.S. Christians see Supreme Court favorably | Pew Research Center - March 3

That article mentioned a poll on who wanted Roe vs. Wade overturned.

White evangelical Protestants wanted it the most, at 61% - 35%.

Most other US Christians thought otherwise, but by a similar margin in that direction: roughly 30% - 70%. White mainline: 26% - 72%, black Protestant: 28% - 68%, white Catholic: 32% - 67%, Hispanic Catholic: 20% - 69%.

Not a lot of numbers on other Xians and non-Xians, because there aren't many of them.

Unaffiliated people thought otherwise by a large margin: 10% - 89%.

Interesting that the nonreligious should be so accepting of abortion.

Turning to politics, conservative Republicans wanted it overturned by 61% - 37%, moderate or liberal ones by 27% - 70%, conservative Democrats by 17% - 81%, and moderate and liberal Democrats by 5% - 94%.

 

[Copernicus]

With religion-related rulings on the horizon, U.S. Christians see Supreme Court favorably | Pew Research Center - March 3

That article mentioned a poll on who wanted Roe vs. Wade overturned.

White evangelical Protestants wanted it the most, at 61% - 35%.

Most other US Christians thought otherwise, but by a similar margin in that direction: roughly 30% - 70%. White mainline: 26% - 72%, black Protestant: 28% - 68%, white Catholic: 32% - 67%, Hispanic Catholic: 20% - 69%.

Not a lot of numbers on other Xians and non-Xians, because there aren't many of them.

Unaffiliated people thought otherwise by a large margin: 10% - 89%.

Interesting that the nonreligious should be so accepting of abortion.

Turning to politics, conservative Republicans wanted it overturned by 61% - 37%, moderate or liberal ones by 27% - 70%, conservative Democrats by 17% - 81%, and moderate and liberal Democrats by 5% - 94%.

It's easy to see why it got overturned. Supreme Court justices wanted it overturned 56% - 44%. No margin of error in that poll.

 

[lpetrich]

Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Twitter: "The issue w/ “elect 2 Dems for Roe” ...️" / Twitter

The issue w/ “elect 2 Dems for Roe” is it’s not clear that’s the #. We need to count votes.

Filibuster needs 51, but it’s not just Manchin & Sinema holding out.

What to do? CALL YOUR DEM SENATOR + ask them to CLEARLY support an abolished or talking filibuster.

Here’s how ⬇

Here’s a tracker.

Now, go down this list and find your Senator. If they only say they’re “open to reform,” that’s not enough. We need a clear position.

If their position isn’t abolished or talking filibuster, or if their answer isn’t clear, CALL THEM.

Here is where you can find your Senator’s number. Be polite and firm.

If your Senator DOES support reform or abolishment, call and THANK THEM. Trust me, honey works with vinegar. It emboldens their fight.

So that means everyone has homework today! :

U.S. Senate: Contacting U.S. Senators

What every Senate Democrat has said about filibuster reform | PBS NewsHour

• Yes to reform: 24
• Open to reform: 22
• Still deciding or unannounced: 2
• Against filibuster reform: 2 -- Joe Manchin & Kyrsten Sinema

I checked on the Senators' ideology scores from govtrack.us and I found that (yes to reform) is the most liberal, but overlapping with (open to reform). That one in turns overlaps with the next most conservative one, (still deciding or unannounced). The opponents of filibuster reform, Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, are the most conservative ones, with a gap between them and the rest of the Democratic Senators.

 

[marc]