Roe v Wade is on deck

[untermensche]

What makes something a human?

Is something that does not have a brain a human?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Sorry to get pissy. But people are talking about very specific things without understanding what those things are.

You're talking about "things".
I'm talking about living humans.

If you were talking about a person's right to smash a vase or plate in their own home, or their right to take a pair of scissors to some item of clothing in their wardrobe, you would get no objection from me. Those are "things". They can be categorised as personal property. If you want a preferential option to destroy them, I guess that's your (foolish) prerogative.

But a human being is not a "thing" and not your personal "property".
(WOW. LOL. Saying those words out loud sounds so old fashioned when speaking to an audience of pro-choice folks who think choice extends to choosing whether someone is a parasite or a 'thing'.)

What is the difference between forcing a woman to carry a fetus vs forcing a person to give up his kidney to a person who will die without the kidney? We should all have the right to govern our own bodies. Period.

 

[Elixir]

If your hypothetical wife were hypothetically pregnant with a baby boy, would the baby boy's penis belong to your hypothetical wife or your hypothetical son?

What was that you were saying about your wife's body?

Wut? No.
Try again.
Gametes do not manifest genitalia (surely a big disappointment for the religious establishment's fixations on sex).

It seems then, that your reasoning dissolves once 'manifest genitalia' are able to be detected.

No, that's when your religious idiocy suddenly takes hold, I guess. But it has no bearing whatsoever on the usurping of a woman's right to the control of her body by a blastocyst, embryo or fetus.
FWIW, my wife had multiple abortions following ectopic pregnancies, almost certainly saving her life.
I find your ignorant blather to be hurtful and harmful. Which places it right n line with many of the other effects of the superstitious brainwashing that results in whole populations killing each other over differences between their imaginary friends.

I'm talking about living humans.

No, you're not. A living human has a functioning brain, a memory and a metabolism that can function outside of a human body.
Your religious nonsense is unhelpful to anyone, including nearly invisible blobs of protoplasm, even if you identify them as your intellectual peers.

 

[Elixir]

A gamete is very much distinguishable from a droplet of snot, which is many, many times larger and incapable of joining with another gamete and under the correct circumstances, develop into a complete vertebrate organism.

Right - I was thinking about another post above wondering about gametes and what kind of special Hell there is for ova and sperm. I should have said blastocyst, which at some point does very much resemble a snot particle.

Sorry to get pissy. But people are talking about very specific things without understanding what those things are.

No apology for that, please! Writing while disturbed... I know it's a bad idea, and mistakes like that give people like religious zealots the ability to crow about "falsehoods".
Thanks.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Sorry to get pissy. But people are talking about very specific things without understanding what those things are.

You're talking about "things".
I'm talking about living humans.

If you were talking about a person's right to smash a vase or plate in their own home, or their right to take a pair of scissors to some item of clothing in their wardrobe, you would get no objection from me. Those are "things". They can be categorised as personal property. If you want a preferential option to destroy them, I guess that's your (foolish) prerogative.

But a human being is not a "thing" and not your personal "property".
(WOW. LOL. Saying those words out loud sounds so old fashioned when speaking to an audience of pro-choice folks who think choice extends to choosing whether someone is a parasite or a 'thing'.)

There is only one ‘living human’ in the scenario we are discussing, your attempt at selling poor knowledge of biology as truth aside.

And you think your opinion regarding her bodily autonomy carries more authority than her’s.

After all, this is about more than the procedure of abortion. Your argument aims at killing the daily birth control pill as well.

 

[Toni]

And you amplified my point that a new born baby also meets the definition of parasite, as does a severely disabled adult human who;
lives on, or with another human in order to obtain nutrients, grow, or multiply often being dependent on, or exploiting another while giving little or nothing in return.

Yeah.

A rich person that makes their living off stocks, off the labor of others, is a parasite too.

Children are parasites for years after they are born.

I hope you don't have children unless you were just writing that to make a point in this thread.

Speaking from my experience, children bring infinitely more joy than they bring work, worry or costs in hugs and giggles alone.

Also: While I could not disagree more with the second and also disagree with the first to a much lesser degree (stock portfolio will fund retirement and yes, PAID for those stocks and yes, the money we PAID helped fund publicly traded companies), I understand the use of the word parasite in a social context. I was only arguing with misusing the term in a biological sense.

 

[Harry Bosch]

And you amplified my point that a new born baby also meets the definition of parasite, as does a severely disabled adult human who;
lives on, or with another human in order to obtain nutrients, grow, or multiply often being dependent on, or exploiting another while giving little or nothing in return.

Yeah.

A rich person that makes their living off stocks, off the labor of others, is a parasite too.

Children are parasites for years after they are born.

I hope you don't have children unless you were just writing that to make a point in this thread.

Speaking from my experience, children bring infinitely more joy than they bring work, worry or costs in hugs and giggles alone.

Also: While I could not disagree more with the second and also disagree with the first to a much lesser degree (stock portfolio will fund retirement and yes, PAID for those stocks and yes, the money we PAID helped fund publicly traded companies), I understand the use of the word parasite in a social context. I was only arguing with misusing the term in a biological sense.

My friend Untermensche has an agenda that often leads to derails! Agree with your post. It's interesting to me that it seems to me that those who are most for supporting a woman's right to choose tend to be those who most value children. Yes, kids bring far more to us than what they "cost".

 

[Toni]

Sorry to get pissy. But people are talking about very specific things without understanding what those things are.

No apology for that, please! Writing while disturbed... I know it's a bad idea, and mistakes like that give people like religious zealots the ability to crow about "falsehoods".
Thanks.

Nah, I just dug in, hard. When people talk about abortion as murdering babies, they are really speaking from ignorance. I think it is important to really know and understand what is happening.

So many eggs go unfertilized. So many fertilized eggs never implant and can never, ever, ever become a baby. So much can and does go wrong with newly dividing gametes and blastulas and embryos that they never develop to the next stage. So much can happen during fetal development that prevents the fetus from further development or ever becoming viable. Almost always this is because of something that was wrong with how the gamete or blastula or embryo or fetus was dividing that made further development impossible and incompatible with viability. Sometimes, there is something wrong with the mother or the placenta. Most of these occur without the woman knowing that a fertilized egg ever implanted in her uterus. There are lots of reasons a fertilized egg never develops into a baby who is born. Induced abortion is only one such reason. Most are simply biology. As a matter of fact, the medical term for a miscarriage is abortion.

We only seem to object when a woman wishes to take control over what is happening to her body.

 

[Elixir]

Sorry to get pissy. But people are talking about very specific things without understanding what those things are.

No apology for that, please! Writing while disturbed... I know it's a bad idea, and mistakes like that give people like religious zealots the ability to crow about "falsehoods".
Thanks.

Nah, I just dug in, hard. When people talk about abortion as murdering babies, they are really speaking from ignorance. I think it is important to really know and understand what is happening.

So many eggs go unfertilized. So many fertilized eggs never implant and can never, ever, ever become a baby. So much can and does go wrong with newly dividing gametes and blastulas and embryos that they never develop to the next stage. So much can happen during fetal development that prevents the fetus from further development or ever becoming viable. Almost always this is because of something that was wrong with how the gamete or blastula or embryo or fetus was dividing that made further development impossible and incompatible with viability. Sometimes, there is something wrong with the mother or the placenta. Most of these occur without the woman knowing that a fertilized egg ever implanted in her uterus. There are lots of reasons a fertilized egg never develops into a baby who is born. Induced abortion is only one such reason. Most are simply biology. As a matter of fact, the medical term for a miscarriage is abortion.

We only seem to object when a woman wishes to take control over what is happening to her body.

QFT!!!

(Of course "we" in the bolded part above refers to the religiously deluded, from which I exclude myself.)

 

[Toni]

Nah, I just dug in, hard. When people talk about abortion as murdering babies, they are really speaking from ignorance. I think it is important to really know and understand what is happening.

So many eggs go unfertilized. So many fertilized eggs never implant and can never, ever, ever become a baby. So much can and does go wrong with newly dividing gametes and blastulas and embryos that they never develop to the next stage. So much can happen during fetal development that prevents the fetus from further development or ever becoming viable. Almost always this is because of something that was wrong with how the gamete or blastula or embryo or fetus was dividing that made further development impossible and incompatible with viability. Sometimes, there is something wrong with the mother or the placenta. Most of these occur without the woman knowing that a fertilized egg ever implanted in her uterus. There are lots of reasons a fertilized egg never develops into a baby who is born. Induced abortion is only one such reason. Most are simply biology. As a matter of fact, the medical term for a miscarriage is abortion.

We only seem to object when a woman wishes to take control over what is happening to her body.

QFT!!!

(Of course "we" in the bolded part above refers to the religiously deluded, from which I exclude myself.)

Sigh. It ain't just the religious who wish to prevent a woman to choose whether or not to get pregnant or continue a pregnancy.

 

[Elixir]

It ain't just the religious who wish to prevent a woman to choose whether or not to get pregnant or continue a pregnancy.

What possible excuse could they have, other than "God sez"??
Seriously, who are you referring to?

 

[Rhea]

I think that feticide rights supporters use the term because it shifts the victim status from the utterly dependent human, who had no say in the circumstances, to the parents. Especially the mother, who is supposedly being victimized by a parasite.

It's a semantic sleight of hand trick. But it's got emotional appeal so it gets used a lot.
Tom

I just describe things as they are.

In most instances the developing fetus is killed based on the perceived costs of a living infant.

It has nothing to do with the nature of the fetus.

I’m thinking this through and wondering, if it weren’t for the actual pregnancy, if a person were just handed a newborn infant, would they end its life?

The answer is no. A resounding no. The overwhelming number of live babies that are unwanted are given to adoption. Very very few have their lives ended, and most of those are by mentally unsable or traumatized indivuduals; usually shamed by religion about having the baby in the first place, or shamed by a society that insists if you can’t parent then you’re a failure, so they try and try to parent and they are terrible at it, but don’t feel that they are permitted to give up and give their child away for a better situation. Moreover, if someone left a baby a your door and you were not ready, or didn’t want it, again there is not a large number of deaths; it is a simple matter of making a phone call and saying someone left a baby that you don’t want.

So this refutes your claim that its the end result of a live baby that is the problem.
The problem is the pregnancy. The pregnancy is what disrupts their health and their life.

 

[Rhea]

You're a parasite using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
Your dad was a rapist and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
I forgot what I was taught in grade school about unprotected sex and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
I want to go on an expensive overseas holiday and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
I get to do whatever I want with "my body" and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
You just so happen to be at the wrong end of the birth canal and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
Unborn babies aren't human and they aren't alive and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
The patriarchy is evil and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
The ultrasound says you're a female embryo and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
Nobody is Pro-abortion and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
Catholics are hypocrites and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.
I couldn't possibly give up my baby for adoption and you’re using my organs...therefore it's OK if I murder remove you from my body.

Fixed that for ya.

You never ever have to give a reason for why you refuse to donate blood, bone marrow, portions of your liver, or upon your death any other portion of your body. You’re not even required to give a reason for why you won’t help someone up off the floor. You are not required to justify your refusal to make your body parts available to any one else, even if you are the cause for them needing your body parts (e.g. drunk driver causing accident that requires such a donation to live)

 

[Toni]

It ain't just the religious who wish to prevent a woman to choose whether or not to get pregnant or continue a pregnancy.

What possible excuse could they have, other than "God sez"??
Seriously, who are you referring to?

Think about the babies!

Oh, and controlling women.

 

[Elixir]

It ain't just the religious who wish to prevent a woman to choose whether or not to get pregnant or continue a pregnancy.

What possible excuse could they have, other than "God sez"??
Seriously, who are you referring to?

Think about the babies!

Oh, and controlling women.

Not sure where you're going with that ... "the (actual) babies" do sometimes get upset about being force to share the center of attention, but they rarely have the power to do anything about it. Pretty much everyone else who tries to control women (other than some serial killers whose sociopathy is their defining characteristic) seems to have a god they can conveniently blame for their irrational and harmful tendencies.
At least, that's my experience. I'm truly interested if there are other major groups still exhibiting that behavior in the 21st century...

 

[TomC]

It ain't just the religious who wish to prevent a woman to choose whether or not to get pregnant or continue a pregnancy.

What possible excuse could they have, other than "God sez"??
Seriously, who are you referring to?

Here's mine.
It's morally wrong for humans to choose death for other humans. Nothing about God.

Frankly, if I believed that innocent people who die go to Heaven I wouldn't much care about abortion. I'd consider abortion the ideal parenting method. It would be sending your kid to Heaven immediately, without subjecting them to the risk of doing something bad enough to go to Hell.

But I don't believe any of that nonsense. All any of us humans get is this one life. From conception until death, that's it!

Ending another human life because you prefer not to take responsibility for a Choice you made is appalling. IMNSHO.

Tom

 

[Harry Bosch]

It ain't just the religious who wish to prevent a woman to choose whether or not to get pregnant or continue a pregnancy.

What possible excuse could they have, other than "God sez"??
Seriously, who are you referring to?

Here's mine.
It's morally wrong for humans to choose death for other humans. Nothing about God.

Frankly, if I believed that innocent people who die go to Heaven I wouldn't much care about abortion. I'd consider abortion the ideal parenting method. It would be sending your kid to Heaven immediately, without subjecting them to the risk of doing something bad enough to go to Hell.

But I don't believe any of that nonsense. All any of us humans get is this one life. From conception until death, that's it!

Ending another human life because you prefer not to take responsibility for a Choice you made is appalling. IMNSHO.

Tom

If I will die without a kidney transplant; and it's discovered that you are a perfect genetic match for me; do you believe that you should be legally required to give your kidney to me?

 

[TomC]

Here's mine.
It's morally wrong for humans to choose death for other humans. Nothing about God.

Frankly, if I believed that innocent people who die go to Heaven I wouldn't much care about abortion. I'd consider abortion the ideal parenting method. It would be sending your kid to Heaven immediately, without subjecting them to the risk of doing something bad enough to go to Hell.

But I don't believe any of that nonsense. All any of us humans get is this one life. From conception until death, that's it!

Ending another human life because you prefer not to take responsibility for a Choice you made is appalling. IMNSHO.

Tom

If I will die without a kidney transplant; and it's discovered that you are a perfect genetic match for me; do you believe that you should be legally required to give your kidney to me?

If you made a Choice that resulted in that kidney failure, I'd strap you to the gurney myself. I'd strap my mom to the gurney under those circumstances.


But that never happens, so it's just another irrelevant analogy.
Tom

ETA ~ Upon rereading I realized that I mixed up the pronouns. But I'm still good with legally requiring kidney donations IF the "donor" made the Choice requiring a kidney to save the victim's life. ~

 

[laughing dog]

Ending another human life because you prefer not to take responsibility for a Choice you made is appalling. IMNSHO.

What if the pregnant woman was
a) raped, or
b) was lied to by her partner who claimed he was infertile, or
c) had defective birth control, or
d) going to die if she gave birth,

would you still feel the same way?

 

[Harry Bosch]

Here's mine.
It's morally wrong for humans to choose death for other humans. Nothing about God.

Frankly, if I believed that innocent people who die go to Heaven I wouldn't much care about abortion. I'd consider abortion the ideal parenting method. It would be sending your kid to Heaven immediately, without subjecting them to the risk of doing something bad enough to go to Hell.

But I don't believe any of that nonsense. All any of us humans get is this one life. From conception until death, that's it!

Ending another human life because you prefer not to take responsibility for a Choice you made is appalling. IMNSHO.

Tom

If I will die without a kidney transplant; and it's discovered that you are a perfect genetic match for me; do you believe that you should be legally required to give your kidney to me?

If you made a Choice that resulted in that kidney failure, I'd strap you to the gurney myself. I'd strap my mom to the gurney under those circumstances.


But that never happens, so it's just another irrelevant analogy.
Tom

Please come off your condescending attitude and show me where in US law it states that a woman consenting to sex means that she consents to having a baby.