Roe v Wade is on deck

[TomC]

More logical fallacies and off topic non-sequiturs.
Covid vaccines. Death penalty politics. Condom debates. Organ donor cards. Irritating preachers who don't donate all their money to the poor, rape pregnancy, sex education...

I was responding specifically to the part of your post that I quoted.
Tom


ETA ~I can't help but notice that your ranting response wasn't quite sophisticated enough to include a complete sentence.~

 

[Lion IRC]

I thought Üntermensch was calling out the petty semantics.

What I was commenting on was the proper definition of things.

A developing human in the womb is a parasite.

No doubt.

And if you kill it then calling it a parasite is a small insult.

I have never said you have the moral authority to kill it because it is a parasite.

People don't kill their fetuses for what the fetus will do inside them.

They kill it for what a living child will do to their life.

And you amplified my point that a new born baby also meets the definition of parasite, as does a severely disabled adult human who;
lives on, or with another human in order to obtain nutrients, grow, or multiply often being dependent on, or exploiting another while giving little or nothing in return.

 

[TomC]

A developing human in the womb is a parasite.

[MENTION=136]Toni[/MENTION]; might not agree, but I do. I just don't think it important. Every placental mammal, which includes humans, has a stage of life that is parasitic. It's called gestation. It isn't just normal, it's universal.

I think that feticide rights supporters use the term because it shifts the victim status from the utterly dependent human, who had no say in the circumstances, to the parents. Especially the mother, who is supposedly being victimized by a parasite.

It's a semantic sleight of hand trick. But it's got emotional appeal so it gets used a lot.
Tom

 

[untermensche]

A developing human in the womb is a parasite.

[MENTION=136]Toni[/MENTION]; might not agree, but I do. I just don't think it important. Every placental mammal, which includes humans, has a stage of life that is parasitic. It's called gestation. It isn't just normal, it's universal.

I think that feticide rights supporters use the term because it shifts the victim status from the utterly dependent human, who had no say in the circumstances, to the parents. Especially the mother, who is supposedly being victimized by a parasite.

It's a semantic sleight of hand trick. But it's got emotional appeal so it gets used a lot.
Tom

I just describe things as they are.

In most instances the developing fetus is killed based on the perceived costs of a living infant.

It has nothing to do with the nature of the fetus.

 

[Lion IRC]

You're a parasite...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Your dad was a rapist...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I forgot what I was taught in grade school about unprotected sex...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I want to go on an expensive overseas holiday...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I get to do whatever I want with "my body"...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
You just so happen to be at the wrong end of the birth canal...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Unborn babies aren't human and they aren't alive...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
The patriarchy is evil...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
The ultrasound says you're a female embryo...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Nobody is Pro-abortion...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Catholics are hypocrites...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I couldn't possibly give up my baby for adoption...therefore it's OK if I murder you.

 

[untermensche]

The definition game.

Definition of parasite

1 : an organism living in, on, or with another organism in order to obtain nutrients, grow, or multiply often in a state that directly or indirectly harms the host

2 : someone or something that resembles a biological parasite in living off of, being dependent on, or exploiting another while giving little or nothing in return

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/parasite

Yep. Different definitions. I'm a biologist and I used the term for parasite used in parasitology.

Also: a human fetus does not necessarily cause harm to the biological mother and does confer some benefits as I noted above.

You used a definition that would specifically not include a developing fetus.

That it doesn't see the developing fetus as a parasite has no power to persuade in other words.

 

[untermensche]

You're a parasite...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Your dad was a rapist...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I forgot what I was taught in grade school about unprotected sex...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I want to go on an expensive overseas holiday...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I get to do whatever I want with "my body"...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
You just so happen to be at the wrong end of the birth canal...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Unborn babies aren't human and they aren't alive...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
The patriarchy is evil...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
The ultrasound says you're a female embryo...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Nobody is Pro-abortion...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Catholics are hypocrites...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I couldn't possibly give up my baby for adoption...therefore it's OK if I murder you.

Is killing a sperm murder?

Is killing an egg murder?

Is killing 64 cells that grew from a fertilized egg murder?

Is killing something with no brain murder?

 

[Elixir]

You're a parasite...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Your dad was a rapist...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I forgot what I was taught in grade school about unprotected sex...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I want to go on an expensive overseas holiday...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I get to do whatever I want with "my body"...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
You just so happen to be at the wrong end of the birth canal...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Unborn babies aren't human and they aren't alive...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
The patriarchy is evil...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
The ultrasound says you're a female embryo...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Nobody is Pro-abortion...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Catholics are hypocrites...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I couldn't possibly give up my baby for adoption...therefore it's OK if I murder you.

You're a nearly invisible gamete, indistiguishable from a droplet of snot.
Therefore you're not entitled to take over my wife's body against her will.

Lion's God is the biggest murdering bastard ever, killing off more "innocent unborn babies" than all intentionally induced abortions combined.
I hope Lion's God has a God and Lion's God's God sends Lion's God to Lion's God's God's Hell for being such a murderer.

 

[Toni]

A developing human in the womb is a parasite.

[MENTION=136]Toni[/MENTION]; might not agree, but I do. I just don't think it important. Every placental mammal, which includes humans, has a stage of life that is parasitic. It's called gestation. It isn't just normal, it's universal.

I think that feticide rights supporters use the term because it shifts the victim status from the utterly dependent human, who had no say in the circumstances, to the parents. Especially the mother, who is supposedly being victimized by a parasite.

It's a semantic sleight of hand trick. But it's got emotional appeal so it gets used a lot.
Tom

No. If you are going to use biological terms in a biological sense, parasite does NOT describe a developing fetus. It is simply the absolute wrong term.

Moreover, I think that is important to recognize that a human fetus is human. Fully stop.

I do NOT believe that any girl or woman is morally obligated to allow a pregnancy--that is, a fetus developing inside her body--to continue, at least not until that fetus is viable. Even after the point of viability, there are legitimate medical and moral reasons that she should be allowed to have that pregnancy terminated.

There is zero moral question about whether a human or other organism can, if possible, eliminate a parasite from its body. But a parasite is not a human being in the biological sense of the word. I'm pretty sure that a lot of us consider some human beings and some institutions to be parasitic. But in that case, we are not talking about biology.

 

[Lion IRC]

You're a parasite...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Your dad was a rapist...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I forgot what I was taught in grade school about unprotected sex...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I want to go on an expensive overseas holiday...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I get to do whatever I want with "my body"...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
You just so happen to be at the wrong end of the birth canal...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Unborn babies aren't human and they aren't alive...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
The patriarchy is evil...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
The ultrasound says you're a female embryo...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Nobody is Pro-abortion...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Catholics are hypocrites...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I couldn't possibly give up my baby for adoption...therefore it's OK if I murder you.

You're a nearly invisible gamete, indistiguishable from a droplet of snot.
Therefore you're not entitled to take over my wife's body against her will.

If your hypothetical wife were hypothetically pregnant with a baby boy, would the baby boy's penis belong to your hypothetical wife or your hypothetical son?

What was that you were saying about your wife's body?

 

[Toni]

You're a parasite...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Your dad was a rapist...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I forgot what I was taught in grade school about unprotected sex...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I want to go on an expensive overseas holiday...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I get to do whatever I want with "my body"...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
You just so happen to be at the wrong end of the birth canal...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Unborn babies aren't human and they aren't alive...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
The patriarchy is evil...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
The ultrasound says you're a female embryo...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Nobody is Pro-abortion...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
Catholics are hypocrites...therefore it's OK if I murder you.
I couldn't possibly give up my baby for adoption...therefore it's OK if I murder you.

You're a nearly invisible gamete, indistiguishable from a droplet of snot.
Therefore you're not entitled to take over my wife's body against her will.

A gamete is mature haploid germ cell: in humans, a sperm or an egg.

It is not a zygote or a blastula or an embryo or a fetus or a person. Might possibly join with another cell to become a zygote which would then, under the correct conditions become a blastula which, under the right conditions could become an embryo which could, under the right conditions, become a fetus which could, under the right conditions be born.

But almost all gametes are flushed down toilets or otherwise expelled from the body.

A gamete is very much distinguishable from a droplet of snot, which is many, many times larger and incapable of joining with another gamete and under the correct circumstances, develop into a complete vertebrate organism.

 

[Elixir]

If your hypothetical wife were hypothetically pregnant with a baby boy, would the baby boy's penis belong to your hypothetical or your hypothetical son?

What was that you were saying about your wife's body?

Wut? No.
Try again.
Gametes (and blastocysts) do not manifest genitalia (surely a big disappointment for the religious establishment's fixations on sex).

 

[Elixir]

A gamete is very much distinguishable from a droplet of snot, which is many, many times larger and incapable of joining with another gamete and under the correct circumstances, develop into a complete vertebrate organism.

Right - I was thinking about another post above wondering about gametes and what kind of special Hell there is for ova and sperm. I should have said blastocyst, which at some point does very much resemble a snot particle.

 

[Lion IRC]

If your hypothetical wife were hypothetically pregnant with a baby boy, would the baby boy's penis belong to your hypothetical wife or your hypothetical son?

What was that you were saying about your wife's body?

Wut? No.
Try again.
Gametes do not manifest genitalia (surely a big disappointment for the religious establishment's fixations on sex).

It seems then, that your reasoning dissolves once 'manifest genitalia' are able to be detected.

 

[Toni]

A gamete is very much distinguishable from a droplet of snot, which is many, many times larger and incapable of joining with another gamete and under the correct circumstances, develop into a complete vertebrate organism.

Right - I was thinking about another post above wondering about gametes and what kind of special Hell there is for ova and sperm. I should have said blastocyst, which at some point does very much resemble a snot particle.

Sorry to get pissy. But people are talking about very specific things without understanding what those things are.

 

[untermensche]

I thought Üntermensch was calling out the petty semantics.

What I was commenting on was the proper definition of things.

A developing human in the womb is a parasite.

No doubt.

And if you kill it then calling it a parasite is a small insult.

I have never said you have the moral authority to kill it because it is a parasite.

People don't kill their fetuses for what the fetus will do inside them.

They kill it for what a living child will do to their life.

And you amplified my point that a new born baby also meets the definition of parasite, as does a severely disabled adult human who;
lives on, or with another human in order to obtain nutrients, grow, or multiply often being dependent on, or exploiting another while giving little or nothing in return.

Yeah.

A rich person that makes their living off stocks, off the labor of others, is a parasite too.

Children are parasites for years after they are born.

 

[Lion IRC]

The rich owner of capital thinks they are the one providing for parasites.

Their factory, their choice.
Don't tell me what to do with my ovaries factory.
It's a ploy by men socialists to control factory owners bodies.

 

[untermensche]

The rich owner of capital thinks they are the one providing for parasites.

Their factory, their choice.

What does he have without them?

It is behavior that makes something a parasite.

Gaining something but doing no work for it makes you a parasite.

 

[untermensche]

A parasite is something that displays parasitic behavior.

Parasitic behavior is deriving your sustenance due to the work of some other organism.

 

[Lion IRC]

A gamete is very much distinguishable from a droplet of snot, which is many, many times larger and incapable of joining with another gamete and under the correct circumstances, develop into a complete vertebrate organism.

Right - I was thinking about another post above wondering about gametes and what kind of special Hell there is for ova and sperm. I should have said blastocyst, which at some point does very much resemble a snot particle.

Sorry to get pissy. But people are talking about very specific things without understanding what those things are.

You're talking about "things".
I'm talking about living humans.

If you were talking about a person's right to smash a vase or plate in their own home, or their right to take a pair of scissors to some item of clothing in their wardrobe, you would get no objection from me. Those are "things". They can be categorised as personal property. If you want a preferential option to destroy them, I guess that's your (foolish) prerogative.

But a human being is not a "thing" and not your personal "property".
(WOW. LOL. Saying those words out loud sounds so old fashioned when speaking to an audience of pro-choice folks who think choice extends to choosing whether someone is a parasite or a 'thing'.)