Roe v Wade is on deck

[laughing dog]

The entire concept of justice has already been abandoned because if it hadn't, Roe V Wade would be the law of the land

It was never actually the law of the land. I'd be very happy if it were... but it was never a law in the first place. Because congress - under MULTIPLE dem-controlled eras, never bothered to make it an actual law.

Of course, they've never actually given female citizens federally recognized equal rights either... so I dunno what you want to take from that about Dem's lip service versus actual progress made.

FFs, it was the de facto law of the land for 50 years.

 

[Emily Lake]

The reality is the privacy you desire is expensive, why should everybody be mandated to provide it?

The reality is that the validation you desire women to provide is expensive and dangerous to us... why should WE be mandated to provide it?

 

[Emily Lake]

The entire concept of justice has already been abandoned because if it hadn't, Roe V Wade would be the law of the land

It was never actually the law of the land. I'd be very happy if it were... but it was never a law in the first place. Because congress - under MULTIPLE dem-controlled eras, never bothered to make it an actual law.

Of course, they've never actually given female citizens federally recognized equal rights either... so I dunno what you want to take from that about Dem's lip service versus actual progress made.

FFs, it was the de facto law of the land for 50 years.

It was the presumed law, yes. But it was never ACTUALLY legislated into law.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Don't be stupid. The objective is DON'T SACRIFICE WOMEN.

No women are being sacrificed.

Abortion Bans Linked to Sharp Rise in Sepsis, Infant Death, and Pregnancy-Associated Death, New Research Shows - Population Reference Bureau

In the wake of Roe's overturn, states with abortion bans have seen 478 excess infant deaths and 59 excess deaths during or after pregnancy.

www.prb.org

59 women that you say don't exist.

Of course we will never have good data:

Maternal death reviews get political as state officials intrude • Stateline

Every state has a committee of medical and public health experts tasked with investigating deaths that occur during and after pregnancy.

stateline.org

The reaction is to quit looking.

I say "medical necessity required for 3rd trimester"

Except there is that exception in Texas for 1st trimester and it is effectively unusable.

 

[Politesse]

I still don't see how attacking trans women for things they didn't do is supposed to teach cis men who do bad things moral accountability. Do you also believe in shooting horses while they are eating grass, to teach wolves what happens when you steal chickens? Connect the dots for me. What man has ever learned an important moral lesson from passing an anti-trans policy? If anything, it just gives them more power and less accountability, since men usually get to enforce those laws, many of which require invading a woman's privacy to enforce. If the law says "arrest little girls for peeing in what you think is the wrong room", the arresting officer not only has the opportunity but the duty to terrify a little girl asking her questions about what she did in the bathroom.

 

[Politesse]

There was a place/space until a few years ago.

When was that place ever peotected by authoritarian laws that give the state sole discretion in defining who is or isn't a woman? A general location and date range will do.

 

[Emily Lake]

Don't be stupid. The objective is DON'T SACRIFICE WOMEN.

No women are being sacrificed.

Abortion Bans Linked to Sharp Rise in Sepsis, Infant Death, and Pregnancy-Associated Death, New Research Shows - Population Reference Bureau

In the wake of Roe's overturn, states with abortion bans have seen 478 excess infant deaths and 59 excess deaths during or after pregnancy.

www.prb.org

59 women that you say don't exist.

Of course we will never have good data:

Maternal death reviews get political as state officials intrude • Stateline

Every state has a committee of medical and public health experts tasked with investigating deaths that occur during and after pregnancy.

stateline.org

The reaction is to quit looking.

I say "medical necessity required for 3rd trimester"

Except there is that exception in Texas for 1st trimester and it is effectively unusable.

In this thread, 1 and 3 are the same apparently

 

[Toni]

I still don't see how attacking trans women for things they didn't do is supposed to teach cis men who do bad things moral accountability. Do you also believe in shooting horses while they are eating grass, to teach wolves what happens when you steal chickens? Connect the dots for me. What man has ever learned an important moral lesson from passing an anti-trans policy? If anything, it just gives them more power and less accountability, since men usually get to enforce those laws, many of which require invading a woman's privacy to enforce. If the law says "arrest little girls for peeing in what you think is the wrong room", the arresting officer not only has the opportunity but the duty to terrify a little girl asking her questions about what she did in the bathroom.

Who the fuck in this thread is attacking trans women? Who is advocating for attacking trans women?

Are you seriously trying to pretend that the anti-trans lobby is not one of the most powerful and active forces in contemporary American politics?

How is that a relevant response to Toni’s question about who in this thread?

Because the thread isn't occurring in a vaccuum. We live in a time when women, both trans and cis, are under serious assault by an increasingly authoritarian government that does not have any woman's best interests at heart. That's the problem. Not someone on the internet getting their feelings hurt because they think "trans rights are human rights" is a personal attack on them.

I see. Your post was therapeutic in nature, not informative.

No, it's political in nature. This being a thread on politics, womanhood, and the law. More specifically the right to privacy under (and from) the law, the principle upon which Roe v Wade was decided.

And apparently you side with the majority USSC ruling that women have no such right to privacy with regards to their bodies.

 

[Emily Lake]

I pay as little attention to the GOP as humanly possible.

Then you lack any meaningful sense of moral accountability whatsoever, and no one should take any of your poltical opinions seriously. I can see how a ruling parties' policies and agendas could be right. I can see how they could be wrong. But I do not see how they could be unimportant. People are dying.

Oh puhlease.

Don't you fucking dare get on your moral high horse and talk down to a woman about the issues that women face, while lording your manly self over her. Don't you fucking mansplain that Toni can't focus on women unless she does it the way you - a man - wants her to.

 

[laughing dog]

Being political in nature does nit preclude therapy. If you demonstrate how it addressed Toni’s question, your explanation would be more convincing,

Toni is trying to make a personal issue out of a political and legal question that affects far more people thsn just her. My opinions on what rights should belong to a citizen have nothing to do with who said what and when in this thread.

Thank you for the clear unequivocal relevant response.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Unfortunately, there are those who absolutely do wish to target trans people.

Horrendously, there are some very few individuals with nefarious motives who want access to women’s facilities first the purposes of predation. This is pretty rare and it makes it much more difficult to reach consensus that protects everyone from the criminal intentions of a small number of people.

Yes, both groups exist.

Note that the second group should be divided into those who enter in disguise vs those who do so openly. What's the usual scenario? Rest stop or the like, isolated, predator is hiding outside, waiting for a victim to show up. Will laws about trans have any effect on these? No. The only relevant ones are those entering in disguise.

Real world news reports, we see repeated examples of the former. The anti-trans crowd struggles to come up with any evidence for the latter. It's very clear which side is victimized more. That says to me the laws are too restrictive. I care an awful lot more about those who are harmed rather than those simply distressed.

You are too big an asshole to recognize that the fear and vigilance and the loss of any safe space is a genuine harm to people you don’t care about: those without a penis.

Note to Loren: you can have a dick without being a dick.

Completely non-responsive to the actual issue.

I see trans people being harmed. I see anti-trans people doing contortions to try to pretend trans people are causing them harm.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I've had my genitals and butt groped against my consent a couple times.

"Why can't women..." Why can't anyone ?!?

Its far from a woman problem.

You're not an approved victim.

Which is what I have repeatedly been told is ‘too expensive.’

The difference is that I don't think it's too expensive. In fact, I really really want to see people forced to actually handle that expense. I WANT the economic turmoil involved. I want to see construction and inconvenience for every last damn asshole who shirked doing it for so fucking long.

You don't realize the problem here: It's not the cost of the facilities. It's the cost of the space and the upkeep. You were recently talking about renting warehouse space. Think of what you're paying for that space (in price per ft^2). Multiply that by a few and figure out many more square feet will be occupied by those facilities. And for existing facilities where does that space come from?? Do you expand your whole building? Do you take out something else? Restrooms already occupy 10-20% of a facility, all-stalls costs you at least 25% more space. It becomes an even bigger issue in things like gyms.

 

[laughing dog]

I've had my genitals and butt groped against my consent a couple times.

"Why can't women..." Why can't anyone ?!?

Its far from a woman problem.

You're not an approved victim.

Which is what I have repeatedly been told is ‘too expensive.’

The difference is that I don't think it's too expensive. In fact, I really really want to see people forced to actually handle that expense. I WANT the economic turmoil involved. I want to see construction and inconvenience for every last damn asshole who shirked doing it for so fucking long.

You don't realize the problem here: It's not the cost of the facilities. It's the cost of the space and the upkeep. You were recently talking about renting warehouse space. Think of what you're paying for that space (in price per ft^2). Multiply that by a few and figure out many more square feet will be occupied by those facilities. And for existing facilities where does that space come from?? Do you expand your whole building? Do you take out something else? Restrooms already occupy 10-20% of a facility, all-stalls costs you at least 25% more space. It becomes an even bigger issue in things like gyms.

What is your evidence that stalls require 25% or more space?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Don't be stupid. The objective is DON'T SACRIFICE WOMEN.

No women are being sacrificed.

Abortion Bans Linked to Sharp Rise in Sepsis, Infant Death, and Pregnancy-Associated Death, New Research Shows - Population Reference Bureau

In the wake of Roe's overturn, states with abortion bans have seen 478 excess infant deaths and 59 excess deaths during or after pregnancy.

www.prb.org

59 women that you say don't exist.

Of course we will never have good data:

Maternal death reviews get political as state officials intrude • Stateline

Every state has a committee of medical and public health experts tasked with investigating deaths that occur during and after pregnancy.

stateline.org

The reaction is to quit looking.

I say "medical necessity required for 3rd trimester"

Except there is that exception in Texas for 1st trimester and it is effectively unusable.

So? I'm showing how medically necessary doesn't work.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Don't be stupid. The objective is DON'T SACRIFICE WOMEN.

No women are being sacrificed.

Abortion Bans Linked to Sharp Rise in Sepsis, Infant Death, and Pregnancy-Associated Death, New Research Shows - Population Reference Bureau

In the wake of Roe's overturn, states with abortion bans have seen 478 excess infant deaths and 59 excess deaths during or after pregnancy.

www.prb.org

59 women that you say don't exist.

Of course we will never have good data:

Maternal death reviews get political as state officials intrude • Stateline

Every state has a committee of medical and public health experts tasked with investigating deaths that occur during and after pregnancy.

stateline.org

The reaction is to quit looking.

I say "medical necessity required for 3rd trimester"

Except there is that exception in Texas for 1st trimester and it is effectively unusable.

So? I'm showing how medically necessary doesn't work.

Re-read then try again.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Your suggestion is that cis females just get over it and to accept the lack of privacy …because it botany bother you personally. Or most men.

I said nothing of the sort. The world is not safe. But persecuting innocent people does not make it safer.

Yup, it's the same formula as always:

1) Identify situation

2) Declare situation a problem.

3) Present "solution", extensive propaganda to avoid people actually understanding.

Note that there is no requirement that the "solution" is of any help with the "problem".

Sometimes reality allows skipping forward a few steps. For example the PATRIOT Act in response to 9/11. That was a long-standing wish list that had nothing to do with 9/11.

 

[laughing dog]

The reason that it can be traumatizing is because of sexual assault by men. Not because someone is trans. Not because someone is a prude. But because, if you grew up as a female, you'd know that we are conditioned from an early age to be very wary of naked penises in inappropriate contexts. Which has included until very very recently the understanding that means a naked penis in a women's only space would reasonably be considered inappropriate and a threat.

And your fears are automatically correct??

According to the World Health Organization, 44% of US women experience some form of unwanted sexual contact during their life. So Toni’s fears are warranted.

This says absolutely nothing about trans girls or women. It says a lot about rape culture in the US. And the fact that women, cis or trans, are pretty much left to defend ourselves against it.

So it should be no surprise if cis girls and women do exactly that: scream to raise the alarm. As we are conditioned to do.

Your solution is for us to give up all semblance of pretenses of privacy and have everything be universal for everyone. It sure isn't to give us any way to discern IN THE MOMENT that seems like an emergency that that person is just another woman.

Because that seems good to you. Inclusive.

It's not inclusive to women who require, for whatever reasons, more privacy. It's exclusive of such women and girls.

And you're ok with that. Because women who are religious or modest or who have been raped are all just anti-trans bigots.

The problem is you seem to be ok with people dying to save you from a bit of fear that is in reality baseless.
[/QUOTE] Please stop with that “people dying” nonsense. Not only is it unsubstantiated, but you don’t have much (if any) issue with unarmed civilians being killed by the police or the IDF.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Don't be stupid. The objective is DON'T SACRIFICE WOMEN.

No women are being sacrificed.

Abortion Bans Linked to Sharp Rise in Sepsis, Infant Death, and Pregnancy-Associated Death, New Research Shows - Population Reference Bureau

In the wake of Roe's overturn, states with abortion bans have seen 478 excess infant deaths and 59 excess deaths during or after pregnancy.

www.prb.org

59 women that you say don't exist.

Of course we will never have good data:

Maternal death reviews get political as state officials intrude • Stateline

Every state has a committee of medical and public health experts tasked with investigating deaths that occur during and after pregnancy.

stateline.org

The reaction is to quit looking.

I say "medical necessity required for 3rd trimester"

Except there is that exception in Texas for 1st trimester and it is effectively unusable.

So? I'm showing how medically necessary doesn't work.

Re-read then try again.

???

Was this supposed to be directed to somebody else?

My point is that permitted only if medically necessary is in practice ending up not protecting women. Doesn't matter where the fence is set, the same thing happens. We see a difference because states where it's still legal through the second trimester are not places where they are playing gotcha with trying to prosecute doctors.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Don't be stupid. The objective is DON'T SACRIFICE WOMEN.

No women are being sacrificed.

Abortion Bans Linked to Sharp Rise in Sepsis, Infant Death, and Pregnancy-Associated Death, New Research Shows - Population Reference Bureau

In the wake of Roe's overturn, states with abortion bans have seen 478 excess infant deaths and 59 excess deaths during or after pregnancy.

www.prb.org

59 women that you say don't exist.

Of course we will never have good data:

Maternal death reviews get political as state officials intrude • Stateline

Every state has a committee of medical and public health experts tasked with investigating deaths that occur during and after pregnancy.

stateline.org

The reaction is to quit looking.

I say "medical necessity required for 3rd trimester"

Except there is that exception in Texas for 1st trimester and it is effectively unusable.

So? I'm showing how medically necessary doesn't work.

Re-read then try again.

???

Was this supposed to be directed to somebody else?

My original post was... and you decided to inject some sort of 'everything is about my opinion', and took a response that was critical of Emily Lake's position with regard to hypothetical medically necessary exceptions for third trimesters (as it relates to an actual and quite useless exception for first trimesters in Texas) inaccurately as some sort of post that was in conflict with yours. You do that from time to time.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I also feel like the only way someone could justify this position is if they had some of these feelings secretly in common with trans people.

Disagree. Fears need not be rational. The manipulators are very good at playing up fears, even where the threat isn't real.

They play to the fear of rape--skip over the fact that rape is almost never committed in a high traffic location.

The only people among Christianity who think being gay is a "sin" that you can "catch", after all, are almost 100% guaranteed to be at least a bit attracted to their own gender. How else could they claim it's a "temptation" to be "resisted"?

While I agree on this I don't think the situations are comparable. This isn't fear of being trans, this is fear of penises.

And the idea that men would go so far as to live as women to get a look at naked women makes no sense.

Two parts to this: some will. Some people really are that "committed" to a "bad-faith" bit.

Look at how committed Jason is to that whole "Democrats are the KKK" thing: nobody takes it seriously, it damages his reputation, it's plainly wrong and makes no sense, and has been debunked many MANY times... but for as long as either of us has been here, Jason sticks with it like a religion.

That will happen, albeit rarely. The fact that across the entire country of 300m people, the fear is not even as well-founded as the fear of flying on a commercial plane or of being struck by lightning.

Yeah, there might be someone--but it's not a realistic threat. Putting a bunch of effort into addressing a minuscule risk is failing to put effort into addressing a bigger risk. The actual risk remains the empty rest room.

But the meme itself spread specifically because bad-faith idiots manufactured a problem, saying loudly and repeatedly against all good sense that it's "magic words" that gain them "access to a lookie-loo" and that this is a thing that "can work".

Exactly. It's a scare tactic, it's not reality. Same with most reich wing things--like the obsession about mail in ballots. Sure, nothing is going to stop someone from mailing in a fraudulent ballot--but obtaining that mail-in ballot in the first place is enough of a problem that it's not an issue. You can't just print one (the mailer will have an ID#), you can't just copy one (they'll get two ballots with the same # and know something's up). But all that security is behind the scene, seeing it would require thinking. And they are all about people not thinking.