Roe v Wade is on deck

[atrib]

There is no moral imperative to care about a parasite with no brain.

Well, since unborn babies have brains they are safe, right?
And since they are human, they are not parasites. We surely wouldn't label a fellow human - a parasite.

It is a parasite if its bearer does not wish it to remain within her body.

The rights of the actual living person carrying the fetus inside her body override the rights of a clump of cells that has the potential to become a person some day. You do not have the right to force a person to donate a lung or kidney to another person, no matter how dire the need. Why do you assume that this right should be taken away from a woman when she becomes pregnant?

 

[Gospel]

Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead. All these pro-lifers can register to donate their bodies for birth. I bet that registry would be empty AF and abortion left alone.

 

[Toni]

Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead. All these pro-lifers can register to donate their bodies for birth. I bet that registry would be empty AF and abortion left alone.

Personally, I just get the giggles at the mental image of a man trying to push a 7 lb. baby out of his penis.

 

[Toni]

There is no moral imperative to care about a parasite with no brain.

Well, since unborn babies have brains they are safe, right?
And since they are human, they are not parasites. We surely wouldn't label a fellow human - a parasite.

It is a parasite if its bearer does not wish it to remain within her body.

The rights of the actual living person carrying the fetus inside her body override the rights of a clump of cells that has the potential to become a person some day. You do not have the right to force a person to donate a lung or kidney to another person, no matter how dire the need. Why do you assume that this right should be taken away from a woman when she becomes pregnant?

Whether an organism is or is not a parasite does not depend upon whether or not the host organism wants it there.

In the case of a human woman and fetus, there is no host/parasite relationship because parasites cannot be parasitical on members of their own species.

 

[Gospel]

Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead. All these pro-lifers can register to donate their bodies for birth. I bet that registry would be empty AF and abortion left alone.

Personally, I just get the giggles at the mental image of a man trying to push a 7 lb. baby out of his penis.

I added a cartoonish pop sound effect when the penis explodes.

 

[Lion IRC]

Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead...

You know what science has done?

It has totally undermined outdated pro-abortion arguments about when exactly a fetus is 'viable' outside the womb. Neo natal medicine has exposed the plain reality that premmie babies born at 22 or 21 weeks are living human beings. If you killed a premmie baby in a maternity ward, you would go to jail for murder.

Likewise, science has provided evidence - empirical, repeatable, evidence - that unborn babies respond to external stimuli as early as 6 weeks from conception. The myth that embryos feel no pain has been falsified by science.

#IFLS

 

[Toni]

Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead...

You know what science has done?

It has totally undermined outdated pro-abortion arguments about when exactly a fetus is 'viable' outside the womb. Neo natal medicine has exposed the plain reality that premmie babies born at 22 or 21 weeks are living human beings. If you killed a premmie baby in a maternity ward, you would go to jail for murder.

Likewise, science has provided evidence - empirical, repeatable, evidence - that unborn babies respond to external stimuli as early as 6 weeks from conception. The myth that embryos feel no pain has been falsified by science.

#IFLS

Viability of a fetus delivered before 24 weeks is very, very poor.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/medica...-03-sweden-world-extremely-preterm-babies.amp


I’m able too find nothing that supports your assertion that a 6 week old embryo responds to external stimuli. Do you have a source?

 

[Elixir]

Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead...

You know what science has done?

It has totally undermined outdated pro-abortion arguments about when exactly a fetus is 'viable' outside the womb.

Link to the SCIENCE please.

Here's some ACTUAL science - click it and learn:


Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques. Similarly, limited or no data exist on the safety of such techniques for pregnant women in the context of abortion. Anesthetic techniques currently used during fetal surgery are not directly applicable to abortion procedures.

 

[Lion IRC]

I’m able too find nothing that supports your assertion that a 6 week old embryo responds to external stimuli. Do you have a source?

www.rcog.org.uk/globalassets/documents/guidelines/rcogfetalawarenesswpr0610.pdf

 

[Elixir]

Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead...

You know what science has done?

It has totally undermined outdated pro-abortion arguments about when exactly a fetus is 'viable' outside the womb.

Link to the SCIENCE please.

Here's some ACTUAL science - click it and learn:


Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester.

It covers reflexive response pathways and methods used to differentiate them from responses to a pain experience.

 

[untermensche]

Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead...

You know what science has done?

It has totally undermined outdated pro-abortion arguments about when exactly a fetus is 'viable' outside the womb. Neo natal medicine has exposed the plain reality that premmie babies born at 22 or 21 weeks are living human beings. If you killed a premmie baby in a maternity ward, you would go to jail for murder.

Likewise, science has provided evidence - empirical, repeatable, evidence - that unborn babies respond to external stimuli as early as 6 weeks from conception. The myth that embryos feel no pain has been falsified by science.

#IFLS

A muscle cell in a petri dish will respond to external stimuli.

Reflexive movement is not cognition.

You can't be anything I have a moral obligation towards without a brain.

 

[Lion IRC]

Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead...

You know what science has done?

It has totally undermined outdated pro-abortion arguments about when exactly a fetus is 'viable' outside the womb.

Link to the SCIENCE please.

Here's some ACTUAL science - click it and learn:


Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques. Similarly, limited or no data exist on the safety of such techniques for pregnant women in the context of abortion. Anesthetic techniques currently used during fetal surgery are not directly applicable to abortion procedures.

Did you know abortion 'clinics' offer fetal anaesthetic?
Can you guess WHY they do that?

And you wanna know another dirty little secret about elective fetal abortion anaesthetic? Most women DECLINE the option.
Bet you can't gue$$ why.

 

[Toni]

I’m able too find nothing that supports your assertion that a 6 week old embryo responds to external stimuli. Do you have a source?

www.rcog.org.uk/globalassets/documents/guidelines/rcogfetalawarenesswpr0610.pdf

This paper does not say what you think it does.

 

[laughing dog]

Link to the SCIENCE please.

Here's some ACTUAL science - click it and learn:


Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques. Similarly, limited or no data exist on the safety of such techniques for pregnant women in the context of abortion. Anesthetic techniques currently used during fetal surgery are not directly applicable to abortion procedures.

Did you know abortion 'clinics' offer fetal anaesthetic?
Can you guess WHY they do that?

And you wanna know another dirty little secret about elective fetal abortion anaesthetic? Most women DECLINE the option.
Bet you can't gue$$ why.

I'll bet you don't know that fetal anesthetic is recommended for surgeries, etc... after 21 weeks which means since most abortions are performed earlier than that, it is because it is not needed.

 

[Lion IRC]

I’m able too find nothing that supports your assertion that a 6 week old embryo responds to external stimuli. Do you have a source?

www.rcog.org.uk/globalassets/documents/guidelines/rcogfetalawarenesswpr0610.pdf

This paper does not say what you think it does.

Yes, it does.
That's why I cited it.

 

[Toni]

This paper does not say what you think it does.

Yes, it does.
That's why I cited it.

You are mistaken.

 

[Lion IRC]

Nope.

 

[Elixir]

Link to the SCIENCE please.

Here's some ACTUAL science - click it and learn:


Evidence regarding the capacity for fetal pain is limited but indicates that fetal perception of pain is unlikely before the third trimester. Little or no evidence addresses the effectiveness of direct fetal anesthetic or analgesic techniques. Similarly, limited or no data exist on the safety of such techniques for pregnant women in the context of abortion. Anesthetic techniques currently used during fetal surgery are not directly applicable to abortion procedures.

Did you know abortion 'clinics' offer fetal anaesthetic?

I'm sure the response from fetuses is overwhelming.

Can you guess WHY they do that?

To assuage patient fears. What do YOU think?

And you wanna know another dirty little secret about elective fetal abortion anaesthetic? Most women DECLINE the option.
Bet you can't gue$$ why.

I bet I can. They know more about it than you. That's why.

You posted a link to a more than ten year old "study" that didn't conclude what you said it did.
I scanned it, but didn't see anything that contradicted the conclusion of the study I posted and you ignored.

I DID see this though - THE SUMMARY OF THE STUDY YOU LINKED TO:

Summary
Connections from the periphery to the cortex are not intact before 24 weeks of gestation. Most pain neuroscientists believe that the cortex is necessary for pain perception; cortical activation correlates strongly with pain experience and an absence of cortical activity generally indicates an absence of pain experience.52–54The lack of cortical connections before 24 weeks, therefore,implies that pain is not possible until after 24 weeks. Even after 24 weeks, there is continuing development and elaboration of intracortical networks. Furthermore, there is good evidence that the fetus is sedated by the physical environment of the womb and usually does not awaken before birth.

This is probably why you don't have any memory whatsoever of the horrible pain that was inflicted upon you prior to your birth, Lion.
I really have to wonder if the discrepancy between what Lion says the study says and what it actually says, results from Lion's lack of reading comprehension, lack of reading at all (someone in his circle said it said what he wishes it said so he posted without reading any of it) or if he thought the TFT audience would just unthinkingly swallow his BS without looking to see if it was just more religion-based claptrap, or if it was being misrepresented by Lion - which it was.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Can't wait for science to make it possible to transport a fetus from a woman to a man so that they can have the baby in her stead...

You know what science has done?

It has totally undermined outdated pro-abortion arguments about when exactly a fetus is 'viable' outside the womb. Neo natal medicine has exposed the plain reality that premmie babies born at 22 or 21 weeks are living human beings. If you killed a premmie baby in a maternity ward, you would go to jail for murder.

Likewise, science has provided evidence - empirical, repeatable, evidence - that unborn babies respond to external stimuli as early as 6 weeks from conception. The myth that embryos feel no pain has been falsified by science.

#IFLS

Note that even your source says 24 weeks is generally considered the limit! Just because there have been survivals down to 21 doesn't mean it's a good idea. There's also the guy who when faced with inoperable brain cancer put a gun to his head and pulled the trigger--and shot out the tumor while doing little other damage.

Viability comes down to the lungs--and note that when they are borderline there usually is severe damage from a lack of oxygen. I consider even trying to save the too-small ones a form of child abuse. We have gotten better over the years at dealing with the other problems but almost nothing has been accomplished with this fundamental issue.

And showing reflex responses doesn't mean there's a mind there to experience pain. Reflexes are at a lower level and develop earlier.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I’m able too find nothing that supports your assertion that a 6 week old embryo responds to external stimuli. Do you have a source?

www.rcog.org.uk/globalassets/documents/guidelines/rcogfetalawarenesswpr0610.pdf

From your own source:

Specialised nerve terminals, nociceptors, are likely to detect surgical tissue damage from early in fetal life (around 10 weeks for the skin and 13 weeks for the internal organs). These nociceptors gradually mature over the next 6–8 weeks and the strength of their signals increases over fetal life. The presence of nociceptors is necessary for perception of acute surgical pain and so pain is clearly not possible before the nociceptors first appear at 10 weeks.

Note that this doesn't say pain at 10 weeks, it says there can't be pain before 10 weeks.