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Russia: Don't look for who did the MH17 shootdown

Why do you think Almaz-Antey didn't blow up a missile from the orientation that they think it happened? Because that would have shown that the damage would be utterly incompatible with MH17. It's easier to pick holes in the other guy's theory than try to support your own..
But Almaz Antey did do that and it did support their theory. They did two tests. Haven't you seen the presentation or the slides?
Let me know if you'd like a link to either of those.
And in fact, I suspect Almaz-Antey did the same by running their simulation multiple times to figure out what orientation would be most likely to not produce the data from DSB report, so as to better discredit it.
Maybe you will change your mind if you actually watch the presentation? Your view of Almaz Antey's work is based on your suspicions rather than watching their presentation?
 
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But Almaz Antey did do that and it did support their theory. They did two tests. Haven't you seen the presentation or the slides?
Let me know if you'd like a link to either of those.
And in fact, I suspect Almaz-Antey did the same by running their simulation multiple times to figure out what orientation would be most likely to not produce the data from DSB report, so as to better discredit it.
Maybe you will change your mind if you actually watch the presentation? Your view of Almaz Antey's work is based on your suspicions rather than watching their presentation?
I have seen the slides, but they are hardly conclusive. Almaz-Antey's first experiment was not with a real aircraft frame, so it's anyone's guess whether that would actually match the damage or not, and the second experiment damage looks pretty much as the real damage - the only points of contention were a few allegedly missing exit holes. It's very easy to misrepresent the results when all you show is individual perforations and just-so stories.

Fact is that the Dutch team run the simulation with Almaz Antey's parameters and it did not match the damage observed.
 
I think at this point, the Russians need to be building model planes out of matchsticks to prove their theories.
 
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Fact is that the Dutch team run the simulation with Almaz Antey's parameters and it did not match the damage observed.
Really?
Dutch-led commission for MH17 crash probe dishonestly used Almaz-Antey data — company

MOSCOW, October 15. /TASS/. The Dutch-led commission for the MH17 crash probe dishonestly used the data provided by the Russian antiaircraft missile system manufacturer Almaz-Antey, the company said in a statement on Thursday.

The area indicated in the commission’s final report as "the area of the missile launch allegedly corresponding to Almaz-Antey’s calculations [the territory located south-east of the town of Torez] was not designated as such in any of the documents sent by the company to the Dutch side," Almaz-Antey’s statement said.

Those naughty Dutch!
 
I think at this point, the Russians need to be building model planes out of matchsticks to prove their theories.

I think they should take a leaf out of the Dutch investigation and cheat. Everyone loves a good cheater.
Pieces of cockpit roof full of shrapnel damage Dutch Safety Board did not use for reconstruction

Large pieces of the cockpit and business class roof of MH17, some full of holes caused by shrapnel, were not used by the Dutch Safety Board for the reconstruction of the aircraft!

The appendix describing the damage observed on the aircraft can be read here. Based on the photos in the report (recovered parts are hold on a temporary wooden construction) the damage analyze was done in the first half of 2015.

Additionally parts recovered in June 2015 showing holes caused by fragments were not described in the final DSB report! There were not used in the reconstruction either!

These parts could provide important clues of the location where the BUK missile exploded.


No one does a phony investigation like the Dutch:diablotin:
 
Does anyone remember the guy who built a toothpick World Trade Center to prove it was bombed?

At least that guy made his conspiracy theories interesting. The Dutch Are Lying Because Of Reasons folks are just kind of half-assing it.
 
The Almaz-Antey test is meaningless. They used a completely different type of aircraft (Ilyushin 86) and had the missile and aircraft cockpit stationary with respect to each other. Of course the damage pattern with a Boeing 777 approaching the missile at a relative velocity of nearly Mach 4 would be different. Not to mention that the relative position of the missile in the test can only be approximate and the shrapnel pattern of two different warheads are not identical (and certainly not ideally constrained within a particular angular range). This particular attempt to "debunk" the Dutch report is silly.
 
Does anyone remember the guy who built a toothpick World Trade Center to prove it was bombed?

At least that guy made his conspiracy theories interesting. The Dutch Are Lying Because Of Reasons folks are just kind of half-assing it.
Yeah..I mean why should the Dutch have to include parts of the aircraft in the reconstruction that show the Russians are right. What sort of dumb investigation would that be? :rolleyes:
 
The Almaz-Antey test is meaningless. They used a completely different type of aircraft (Ilyushin 86) and had the missile and aircraft cockpit stationary with respect to each other. Of course the damage pattern with a Boeing 777 approaching the missile at a relative velocity of nearly Mach 4 would be different. Not to mention that the relative position of the missile in the test can only be approximate and the shrapnel pattern of two different warheads are not identical (and certainly not ideally constrained within a particular angular range). This particular attempt to "debunk" the Dutch report is silly.
How could it be an attempt to debunk the Dutch report, unless you believe the Dutch report was pre determined. They did the test before the report was out. :thinking:
 
Really?
Dutch-led commission for MH17 crash probe dishonestly used Almaz-Antey data — company

MOSCOW, October 15. /TASS/. The Dutch-led commission for the MH17 crash probe dishonestly used the data provided by the Russian antiaircraft missile system manufacturer Almaz-Antey, the company said in a statement on Thursday.

The area indicated in the commission’s final report as "the area of the missile launch allegedly corresponding to Almaz-Antey’s calculations [the territory located south-east of the town of Torez] was not designated as such in any of the documents sent by the company to the Dutch side," Almaz-Antey’s statement said.

Those naughty Dutch!
Red herring. The map has nothing to do with the damage on the plane. It is a simulation of the possible launch sites based on the detonation point. I already addressed this point earlier in the thread: The DSB report is perfectly transparent and explicit that they asked AA to calculate the launch site based on the possible detonation position and orientation provided by the TNO, A) as confirmation for their own models, and B) because the position suggested by Russia was invalid and didn't match the observed damage on the plane.

It's Almaz Antey and Russia who are being dishonest here. They would have liked that the data they provided wouldn't be in the report because that's one less thing they can distort and lie about: now Russia can't pretend that if the missile came head-on (which is supported by the simulation model), it didn't come from near Snizhne.
 
I think they should take a leaf out of the Dutch investigation and cheat. Everyone loves a good cheater.
Pieces of cockpit roof full of shrapnel damage Dutch Safety Board did not use for reconstruction

Large pieces of the cockpit and business class roof of MH17, some full of holes caused by shrapnel, were not used by the Dutch Safety Board for the reconstruction of the aircraft!

The appendix describing the damage observed on the aircraft can be read here. Based on the photos in the report (recovered parts are hold on a temporary wooden construction) the damage analyze was done in the first half of 2015.

Additionally parts recovered in June 2015 showing holes caused by fragments were not described in the final DSB report! There were not used in the reconstruction either!

These parts could provide important clues of the location where the BUK missile exploded.


No one does a phony investigation like the Dutch:diablotin:
Nonsense. The roof part in question was used based on photographs, because it wasn't delivered to the investigation until an RT documentary about it had aired and the analysis was already done. In other words, it wasn't used because Russia was deliberately hiding evidence. Yes, those parts could have provided important clues, but since it wasn't used, there is no way to tell whether it would have confirmed the board's other findings or contradicted them.

Why did Russia hide some of the debris? Probably either to slow the process down (because it would mean that the reconstruction would have to be done again which would further delay publishing the results), or so that they could wait until the investigation is over so they can make up any bullshit interepretations about it that they want and try to discredit the investigation. This is a classic example of disinformation tactics that Russia has used throughout the investigation, and this type of obstruction just makes them look more guilty.
 
The Almaz-Antey test is meaningless. They used a completely different type of aircraft (Ilyushin 86) and had the missile and aircraft cockpit stationary with respect to each other. Of course the damage pattern with a Boeing 777 approaching the missile at a relative velocity of nearly Mach 4 would be different. Not to mention that the relative position of the missile in the test can only be approximate and the shrapnel pattern of two different warheads are not identical (and certainly not ideally constrained within a particular angular range). This particular attempt to "debunk" the Dutch report is silly.
How could it be an attempt to debunk the Dutch report, unless you believe the Dutch report was pre determined. They did the test before the report was out. :thinking:
Russia was informed and involved in the investigation every step of the process. They knew exactly what was going to be in the report based on draft versions that were circulated. In fact, Russia had more of its feedback affect the final wording of the report than either Ukraine or Netherlands, which debunks the propaganda line that Russian concerns were ignored.

Do you see a pattern here? Every point you'd tried to make about the DLB report being "phony" has been debunked, and in fact just demonstrate the duplicity and obstructionism from Russian side.
 
Nonsense. The roof part in question was used based on photographs, because it wasn't delivered to the investigation until an RT documentary about it had aired and the analysis was already done. In other words, it wasn't used because Russia was deliberately hiding evidence. Yes, those parts could have provided important clues, but since it wasn't used, there is no way to tell whether it would have confirmed the board's other findings or contradicted them.

Why did Russia hide some of the debris?
You were wrong before because you hadn't watched the presentation. You didn't even know what tests were done.
You've made the same mistake here because you haven't watched the documentary, so you're just making thing up again. :rolleyes:

Do you know why you're wrong? Watch the documentary and find out :D
 
Nonsense. The roof part in question was used based on photographs, because it wasn't delivered to the investigation until an RT documentary about it had aired and the analysis was already done. In other words, it wasn't used because Russia was deliberately hiding evidence. Yes, those parts could have provided important clues, but since it wasn't used, there is no way to tell whether it would have confirmed the board's other findings or contradicted them.

Why did Russia hide some of the debris?
You were wrong before because you hadn't watched the presentation. You didn't even know what tests were done.
You've made the same mistake here because you haven't watched the documentary, so you're just making thing up again. :rolleyes:

Do you know why you're wrong? Watch the documentary and find out :D

Does it also prove that jet fuel doesn't melt steel beams?

RT 'documentaries' are not in the class of "things that are not a waste of time when trying to become informed". You may have found something persuasive in that film; many people find Kent Hovind's descriptions of the origins of life persuasive too - but I don't have to watch any of Kent's videos to know that I would be wasting my time to watch all of his videos. He and his supporters would also say things like "Do you know why you're wrong? Watch the documentary and find out :D" - but they would be giving poor advice, based on the false assumption that others are equally as gullible as they.

The fact is that the OVV is a hugely professional organisation of apolitical experts in all aspects of aviation and other transport incident investigation. The probability that a political influence could be brought to bear on such an organisation without at least several of the truth-obsessed geeks who work there blowing the whistle is as close to zero as you can get - these are people for whom finding and publishing the facts is an absolute fetish; they simply do not all suddenly decide to falsify their reports for political reasons, and many of them would rather lose their jobs and livelihoods than compromise the truth in that way. Air Accident Investigation is a specialised field made up of quite obsessive truth seekers, who have an ingrained aversion to ignoring or falsifying evidence. If another organisation disagrees with their findings, then the probability that the OVV ignored that organisation, or that they would change their reported findings to suit the political ideals of that organisation, are nil.

Air Accident Investigation is deliberately separated from criminal investigation, specifically to reduce any possibility that political or emotional considerations could corrupt their findings; the sole objective of an Air Accident Investigator is to prevent a recurrence of the accident under consideration. They don't care about blame; they care about not having it happen again; and they care about the facts.

You might live in a world where everything is corrupted by political shenanigans, spin, propaganda and outright lies. But the engineers and forensic specialists of the OVV, like their counterparts at the NTSB, the AAIB, CASA, and all the other similar bodies around the world don't live in such a world. They deal with facts. They are uber geeks - fraud is totally unnatural to them. They may work for the Dutch government, in terms of who sends them their pay-checks; But they are not the Dutch Government, and they don't give a flying fuck what the Dutch Government or any of its politicians want. Nor do they care what Russia, Ukraine, the USA, Australia, or any other nation or their politicians think. Stop wasting time on dodgy presentations from companies with a direct conflict of interest; stop even looking at this particular case; and instead invest some time reading other OVV reports about other aviation accidents and incidents. Get a feel for who these investigators are, and what they do. THEN come back and read their report.
 
But Almaz Antey did do that and it did support their theory. They did two tests. Haven't you seen the presentation or the slides?
Let me know if you'd like a link to either of those.
Maybe you will change your mind if you actually watch the presentation? Your view of Almaz Antey's work is based on your suspicions rather than watching their presentation?
I have seen the slides,
That is difficult to believe. Did you not understand them? How is it, if you really did see the slides that you claimed they did not do an experiment from an orientation from which they think it happened.?
Here is what you said...
Why do you think Almaz-Antey didn't blow up a missile from the orientation that they think it happened? Because that would have shown that the damage would be utterly incompatible with MH17. It's easier to pick holes in the other guy's theory than try to support your own..

But then you claim you had seen the slides. <huh>??
You appear to have formed your conclusion before you even looked.

You claim you worship evidence, but the evidence is you form a conclusion and then seek to shoehorn the facts. pfft
 
The Almaz-Antey test is meaningless. They used a completely different type of aircraft (Ilyushin 86) and had the missile and aircraft cockpit stationary with respect to each other. Of course the damage pattern with a Boeing 777 approaching the missile at a relative velocity of nearly Mach 4 would be different. Not to mention that the relative position of the missile in the test can only be approximate and the shrapnel pattern of two different warheads are not identical (and certainly not ideally constrained within a particular angular range). This particular attempt to "debunk" the Dutch report is silly.
Almaz Antey is the missile manufacturer, so they are an obvious choice to ask about the accident. This strangely did not happen. However they were sanctioned, although there was no evidence they did anything wrong. So quite naturally they did their own examination of what happened.
They saw certain things.
1.What seemed to be warhead fragment damage to the left wing. Impossible if the missile came from Snizhne.
2.Evidence of warhead fragments moving longitudinally back through the plane. Impossible if the missile came from Snizhne.
3.Other damage to the cockpit not consistent with a missile coming from Snizhne.

So they offered to do the best test they could do, even though not perfect. they did 14 million computer simulations.

On the other hand we have some NATO countries and Ukraine (one of the prime suspects) and Malaysia (who was not even included until they complained) saying they will do their own investigation.
Under IATA Rules, the parties responsible for the investigation would be the Malaysians, as owners of the plane and home country of the airline, and the Ukrainians over whose territory the atrocity occurred. It was the Dutch however, who took the lead role, citing two facts: the plane had departed from Amsterdam; and they had suffered the largest number of their nationals as victims. The Malaysians were initially excluded from the inquiry for reasons that have never been satisfactorily explained. They were finally invited to join the Joint Inquiry on 2 December 2014.

It is truly astounding that people on this forum are not the slightest bit skeptical, and have some fantasy that this means an impartial investigation.

What did you want Almaz Antey to do? What more can they do?

this whole event is probably unprecedented ...
On 8 August 2014 these four investigating nations signed an agreement that the results of the investigation would not be published unless all four countries agreed. This gave one of the prime suspects in the atrocity, Ukraine, an effective veto over any investigations result that attributed blame to them. This is an astonishing situation and probably without precedent in modern air crash investigations.

Why the Secrecy on the Mh17 Investigation
 
The Almaz-Antey test is meaningless. They used a completely different type of aircraft (Ilyushin 86) and had the missile and aircraft cockpit stationary with respect to each other. Of course the damage pattern with a Boeing 777 approaching the missile at a relative velocity of nearly Mach 4 would be different. Not to mention that the relative position of the missile in the test can only be approximate and the shrapnel pattern of two different warheads are not identical (and certainly not ideally constrained within a particular angular range). This particular attempt to "debunk" the Dutch report is silly.
How could it be an attempt to debunk the Dutch report, unless you believe the Dutch report was pre determined.

Uhh...'cuz they held a press conference to specifically state that their test debunks the Dutch report?


They did the test before the report was out. :thinking:

But after they knew what the investigators had concluded.
 
Nonsense. The roof part in question was used based on photographs, because it wasn't delivered to the investigation until an RT documentary about it had aired and the analysis was already done. In other words, it wasn't used because Russia was deliberately hiding evidence. Yes, those parts could have provided important clues, but since it wasn't used, there is no way to tell whether it would have confirmed the board's other findings or contradicted them.

Why did Russia hide some of the debris?
You were wrong before because you hadn't watched the presentation. You didn't even know what tests were done.
You've made the same mistake here because you haven't watched the documentary, so you're just making thing up again. :rolleyes:

Do you know why you're wrong? Watch the documentary and find out :D
No, I'm not goign to go watch some 2-hour piece of turd that RT made. Last year around this time they had another "documentary" that was claiming sightings of Ukrainian planes and that the holes in the debris were from bullets. If you have specific claim you think that the documentary makes, feel free to bring it up and we can discuss their merits. But just because RT puts someting in a documentary doesn't make it true.

Also, you are shifting goal posts. You claimed that the Dutch investigation was cherry-picking the evidence by not including some of the debris inthe reconstruction. But the reality s that it did that because it didn't have those pieces (only photographs of some), and the reason why it didn't have those pieces was because Russia or its rebel lackeys were witholding them. This doesn't discredit the DSB report, it discredits Russia.
 
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